pompeydave
Member
Agreed. I've always tended to subscribe to the theory with motor boats that if it looks right, it'll usually go right.
First yacht advice please
- Thread starter pompeydave
- Start date
dragonvc
New member
Another two lift keelers which would be at top end of performance range are Limbo 21 and Fox Terrier 22 the fox terrier in fin keel form has done very well in the Miniton Cup and all have done well in up to 30kts of breeze if suitably reefed.In a big breeze with these small yachts they can be surprisingly capable if reefed well.
Seajet
...
I happen to agree with most if not all the above, especially having a tillerpilot if singlehanded, though obviously like any electrical kit one should be prepared for it to pack up, usually at the worst possible moment !
I'd think the Limbo a bit racy for the OP.
In light airs the Anderson is very sticky, the E-Boat is much faster ( but has a diabolical interior and requires care in heavy weather); in stiffer conditions the A22 will have a lot of much bigger boats.
We once beat a Rival 34 from Bucklers Hard to Chichester heading into a real easterly F6, which I wouldn't call extreme conditions; the Rival owner was asounded, he was a National Champion dinghy racer and had previously owned a Hurley 22, which he remarked would have stopped dead in those conditions.
Out of those mentioned I'd go for the A22 or Trident 24 - a good solid boat which will look after one - , for the OP's stated purpose.
I'd think the Limbo a bit racy for the OP.
In light airs the Anderson is very sticky, the E-Boat is much faster ( but has a diabolical interior and requires care in heavy weather); in stiffer conditions the A22 will have a lot of much bigger boats.
We once beat a Rival 34 from Bucklers Hard to Chichester heading into a real easterly F6, which I wouldn't call extreme conditions; the Rival owner was asounded, he was a National Champion dinghy racer and had previously owned a Hurley 22, which he remarked would have stopped dead in those conditions.
Out of those mentioned I'd go for the A22 or Trident 24 - a good solid boat which will look after one - , for the OP's stated purpose.
mickywillis
Well-known member
Shame you don't have a slightly larger budget, my Westerly Pageant is up for sale and is VERY local to you!!
Just in case, heres the link:
https://tudorsc.wordpress.com/category/for-sale-wanted/
Just in case, heres the link:
https://tudorsc.wordpress.com/category/for-sale-wanted/
pompeydave
Member
I agree with the Fox Terrier 22 idea- I just missed out on two bilge keelers they had at a marina in Lymington. Ex HMS Hornet trainers, fastidiously maintained and only £1000 each
.Yes, I like both of these, although the Trident appears to be a little 'ponderous', but there are some cheap examples available.
Yep, a bit out of my range I'm afraid. Do you know Steve Yoxon? he's a Tudor member and a good mate of mine.
mickywillis
Well-known member
Yes, I know Steve, nice guy. Hasn't he got a Jaguar??
There are a couple of cheap boats for sale in the compound, may be worth coming down and having a look?
There are a couple of cheap boats for sale in the compound, may be worth coming down and having a look?
pompeydave
Member
No, I've been out on it with him a couple of seasons ago and it's not a Jag. It has a platform aft of the keel you can sit on, but offhand I can't remember the name of the boat. I'll have a wander down there one day as I'm literally only up the road in Drayton.
pompeydave
Member
Hi all, I've trawled around a dozen or so boatyards in the last couple of weeks, and I've come to a few conclusions:
1) I need a lift keel boat of less than 2' with the keel up, to allow maximum accessibility on and off my tidal pontoon berth in Langstone.
2) I'm struggling to get enthused over the older designs many have already mentioned in this thread. They all seem to lack the freeboard of late 70's and onwards boats.
3) I'm not going to find what I want at £1000.
So, a bit of a financial rethink/selling of other 'toys' has led me to up the budget to around 3-4k. Having now seen dozens of different designs up close recently, I'd absolutely love a Hunter Delta 25. Not too keen on the sloped topsides going forward as it doesn't leave much a foothold, but other than that, they look good, and have good writeups. Sadly, even 3-4k is not going to be enough for one of these.
Which leaves me with a couple of smaller options that I keep coming back to, i.e. a Jaguar 21 or a Hunter Medina 20. I can find both at sub 4k. I have also found a couple of Trapper TS240's around this budget.
Any opinions on these three please?
1) I need a lift keel boat of less than 2' with the keel up, to allow maximum accessibility on and off my tidal pontoon berth in Langstone.
2) I'm struggling to get enthused over the older designs many have already mentioned in this thread. They all seem to lack the freeboard of late 70's and onwards boats.
3) I'm not going to find what I want at £1000.
So, a bit of a financial rethink/selling of other 'toys' has led me to up the budget to around 3-4k. Having now seen dozens of different designs up close recently, I'd absolutely love a Hunter Delta 25. Not too keen on the sloped topsides going forward as it doesn't leave much a foothold, but other than that, they look good, and have good writeups. Sadly, even 3-4k is not going to be enough for one of these.
Which leaves me with a couple of smaller options that I keep coming back to, i.e. a Jaguar 21 or a Hunter Medina 20. I can find both at sub 4k. I have also found a couple of Trapper TS240's around this budget.
Any opinions on these three please?
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Martin_W_Brown
New member
Got a Jag21. It's my first boat so I can't compare it to much. Overall:
- it seems well made. I got it in bits so had lots of opportunity to inspect everything ;-)
- I love the lines
- it sails very nicely - vice-free so far - and it seems to keep up with the other boats around despite my inexperience
- accommodation is good
- I can tow it behind my Mazda 6 (just)
- it seems well made. I got it in bits so had lots of opportunity to inspect everything ;-)
- I love the lines
- it sails very nicely - vice-free so far - and it seems to keep up with the other boats around despite my inexperience
- accommodation is good
- I can tow it behind my Mazda 6 (just)
Seajet
...
One thing to beware of with any decent size - say 20' + - lift keeler drawing less than 2' keel up is that
may mean a vulnerable hull settling on stones etc, E-Boats with fully retracting keels suffer this way ( and still don't seem to draw any less than my boat which has a protective and more efficient ballast bulb to settle on, even in soft mud most of the antifoul is out of the mud ).
Sad to say but the Jaguar 21 is not self righting with the keel up, one at my moorings was blown over in a bad squall and stayed on her side until a friendly passing gig flipped her back upright !
Avoid Jaguar 22 lift keelers, I have seen 2 onshore with the hull sagging around the keel stub like a pudding.
Hunter Medina OK but very limited seakeeping, beware keel uplock - the bolt thread can disappear with time; not great handling.
TS240; a bit racy & light, check keel format re above but a good one would be fine if you're used to fast dinghies.
IT is essential wih all lift keelers to check the keel plate condition before purchase, usually with boat in a hoist and keel lowered.
I and many A22 owners keep my boat on high trestles every winter to maintain the keel plate, also we are extraordinarily lucky to have newly made keels available, not many new boats can offer this !
If a boat has been wintered on a trailer or otherwise without a method of raising the hull, you should ask ' How has the keel plate been maintained then ? '
Beating off a lee shore in a F6 on a dark night with family aboard is not the time to start wondering if the keel will stay on...
pompeydave
Member
Really? I understood that the Medina was a good seaboat? Ok, thanks for the advice- I might be back at square one again!
Seajet
...
I said that going by several people who'd had Medina's, some of them going on to A22's; never tried one myself but the comments of those going on to Andersons were rather scathing about the Medina, I reckoned they should know as among them were a couple of elderley experienced bods who won the East Coast Nore Race in heavy weather against some 70 competitors.
Sadly their Anderson was sunk in the first days of new ownership by an errant mooring sinker badly laid and the chap has just walked away, lots of interest in fixing her but I can't get any response - bloody vandal for leaving a good boat like that !
Sadly their Anderson was sunk in the first days of new ownership by an errant mooring sinker badly laid and the chap has just walked away, lots of interest in fixing her but I can't get any response - bloody vandal for leaving a good boat like that !
lpdsn
New member
I've never sailed one, so I thought I'd have a look for some info on a Medina.
One set of opinions:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter_Medina_20
Class Association:
http://www.medina20.com/
Taking the data from Wikipedia at face value. She has quite a bit of sail area and quite a low ballast ratio. Just glancing at the pictures she looks like she'll sail well. However, she doesn't look like the sort of boat that you would take out in a F8 for a bit of fun, or even a F6.
So it is all down to what you want to do. Some nice F3-4 sailing in the Solent will be a doddle. Dylan Winter has demonstrated that you can do a great deal in a small boat if you pick the right weather windows.
I would hazard a guess that you will really need to learn how to trim the mainsail of a bendy fractional-rigged boat if you want to control her when the wind starts to get up - so you need to learn about the effects of halyard tension, backstay tension, outhaul and how to spot what needs to change from looking at the sail shape. Rig her so you can ease/dump the kicker from the helm - that will allow you to manage the 'griping' Wikipedia mentions.
In the right hands I'd guess she could be a pretty competitive club racer. The larger Sonatas and Impalas are. There are certainly pictures that seem to show an experienced crew handling her well in what looks like a F6. Just work up to that bit
So that's one set of first impressions for you.
pompeydave
Member
Ok, thanks. I'll probably be looking to sail in no more than F3-4 in the Solent anyway, so if the low wind speed performance is good, that would tick a few boxes for me. I've found one that just needs a good clean up locally for £1500, so it falls within budget.
Seajet
...
The A22 has a supposedly bendy 7/8ths rig and I'm from a background of high performance dinghies, but I don't use the backstay tweaker much !
I reckon the thing to avoid is running backstays, requiring set-up after each gybe; always seemed to me that for a small or husband & wife crew that's an accident waiting to happen.
I reckon the thing to avoid is running backstays, requiring set-up after each gybe; always seemed to me that for a small or husband & wife crew that's an accident waiting to happen.
TSB240
Well-known member
Trapper Ts 240 Real Life Experience
EX TS240 owner!
I purchased the TS240 because I was looking for a trailable yacht that could be dried out occasionally in sheltered harbours and beaches around North Wales and the Irish Sea and South Brittany
It is a highly responsive boat and really looked after us in some extreme conditions (42 knots and still making windward progress!)
Is it Racy?
The forum expert will have been very lucky if he has sailed one or let alone been near one for any length of time as it will leave an Anderson 22 and most other larger boats standing in lighter winds.
We usually put our first reef in at 18-20 knots of wind. Sailed in company with other much larger boats from Anglesey to the Isle of man and arrived at the same time.
So its quick yes !
Very Beamy design so very stable off wind and great fun with a spinnaker up . Roomy interior and huge cockpit lockers. Deep safe cockpit More freeboard than most of the same size. It will happily dry out anywhere sheltered without falling over or needing legs or deep mud to stay upright.
We had the option of this or a Medina. TS 240 was way better design all round.
If you go to see one let me know as I might know of the owner and what to look out for.
Oh by the way its a dolphin magnet!
View attachment 49382
EX TS240 owner!
I purchased the TS240 because I was looking for a trailable yacht that could be dried out occasionally in sheltered harbours and beaches around North Wales and the Irish Sea and South Brittany
It is a highly responsive boat and really looked after us in some extreme conditions (42 knots and still making windward progress!)
Is it Racy?
The forum expert will have been very lucky if he has sailed one or let alone been near one for any length of time as it will leave an Anderson 22 and most other larger boats standing in lighter winds.
We usually put our first reef in at 18-20 knots of wind. Sailed in company with other much larger boats from Anglesey to the Isle of man and arrived at the same time.
So its quick yes !
Very Beamy design so very stable off wind and great fun with a spinnaker up . Roomy interior and huge cockpit lockers. Deep safe cockpit More freeboard than most of the same size. It will happily dry out anywhere sheltered without falling over or needing legs or deep mud to stay upright.
We had the option of this or a Medina. TS 240 was way better design all round.
If you go to see one let me know as I might know of the owner and what to look out for.
Oh by the way its a dolphin magnet!
View attachment 49382
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Seajet
...
In lighter winds probably, but when the **** hits the fan one would wish to be on an A22 !
How about the keel, I think the TS240 is fully retracting leaving the bottom to pound / sit on any exposed stones etc, while the Anderson has a 9" deep 900lb ballast bulb with a veed top to fair in with the hull;
So much less vulnerable to nasty pointy bits - which there always are even on soft mud,
Much less vulnerable to small stones or dried mud in the keelcase,
Much better place for the ballast to be, on the end of the righting lever / keel, I seem to recall this is where all modern racing boats put their ballast for effiency.
How about the keel, I think the TS240 is fully retracting leaving the bottom to pound / sit on any exposed stones etc, while the Anderson has a 9" deep 900lb ballast bulb with a veed top to fair in with the hull;
So much less vulnerable to nasty pointy bits - which there always are even on soft mud,
Much less vulnerable to small stones or dried mud in the keelcase,
Much better place for the ballast to be, on the end of the righting lever / keel, I seem to recall this is where all modern racing boats put their ballast for effiency.
pompeydave
Member
I'll only ever be drying out onto very soft mud on my pontoon berth. I've already checked it with a stick at low tide to make sure there are no lumps of concrete or anything else sharp down there, so to a degree the keel shape isn't that relevant. The flusher the better really.
TSB240
Well-known member
Wrong! Low aspect and Bulb! But hey ho you are the expert on so many other boats you have never sailed!
Seajet
...
How about mud and small stones getting into the keel case ?
I've had my lift keeler on a soft mud mooring near there since 1978 ( with a 4 year gap 86-90 if pedants are watching ) and have seen other lift keelers come and go.
I've seen the dramatic failure of the Etap 26 - keel doesn't go all the way up, just a draft reduction thing rather than ability to sit on mud - and Seal 22's and 28's with lift gear problems and stones jamming the keels, E-Boats and Yachting Monthly Seniors sunk on soft mud by stones, and Jag 21's fall over because of wind gusts...
Take a look at the keels and formats from an engineer's point of view bearing in mind a seabed littered with small often pointy stones, it's very far from rocket science.
I've had my lift keeler on a soft mud mooring near there since 1978 ( with a 4 year gap 86-90 if pedants are watching ) and have seen other lift keelers come and go.
I've seen the dramatic failure of the Etap 26 - keel doesn't go all the way up, just a draft reduction thing rather than ability to sit on mud - and Seal 22's and 28's with lift gear problems and stones jamming the keels, E-Boats and Yachting Monthly Seniors sunk on soft mud by stones, and Jag 21's fall over because of wind gusts...
Take a look at the keels and formats from an engineer's point of view bearing in mind a seabed littered with small often pointy stones, it's very far from rocket science.