Figure 8 loop Vs bowline

[srah1953]

I notice from stuff I see in the web that climbers seem to use a loop created with a figure eight knot to attach a line to a harness rather than a bowline which would be the go-to knot for sailors. Is there a reason why this is preferred by climbers?
Thanks

 

[Sandy]

Depends on the individual. I preferred a bowline, but used a figure of eight when it was cold and wet as it was easier to tie.

 

[scruff]

The loads on a climber's rope will likely be lower than that of something used on boat - therefore the issue of figure 8 loops becoming too tight to undo after proper loading isn't the same issue.

It's also easier to tie and visually easier to check it's correct

 

[Refueler]

Different rope construction leads to different knots used.

A Fig 8 loop is a self tightening type via both parts and can be used in ropes that tend to lose knot security as can happen with a bowline.... where only one part self tightens.

Ever had a rope with a bowline in that fell 'open' ?

But lets be honest - each hobby / pastime has its fav knots and hitches ... and many are not because they are better than a seamans - but because they get taught to newcomers and passed down the ages becoming THE standard.

 

[Graham_Wright]

Bowlines can shake open.

 

[Kelpie]

I've had bowlines slip out when using brand new braid-on-braid. I was taught to climb by a yachtie and he insisted on figure 8 loops.

 

[ctva]

When your life depends on it, always a fig 8. Can't capsize, easy to adjust without untying, easy to visually identify being correct and simple to tie.

Also, although marginal, the strength of the 8 will be better as each strand is turned over two strands and not one as in a bowline.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

The point of most sailing knots is that they are easy to untie, while offering sufficient security. Sailing often requires knots to be undone; for example, reef points were tied with reef knots precisely because a reef knot can be undone quickly. Where a permanent loop or join is required, a splice is the usual response, or seizings.

All the common knots are easy to untie if you know how, often even under a load. Some, such as the Carrick bend, remain open in form even under load.

The ease of untying, of course, means that a knot can come undone if strain falls on it in the wrong direction. In most cases, the wrong direction requires a deliberate action, such as tension on the free end of the line.

As with many things, it's a trade-off. The knots we use are both easy to undo and sufficiently secure if used correctly. But climbers have a different set of criteria, so they go for knots that are highly secure but potentially very difficult to undo.

 

[Fiddlesticks]

You can tie a bowline with one hand.

 

[Motor_Sailor]

Mountaineers don't all use Fig 8 knots.

The Fig 8 became commonly taught as it was a knot that did most jobs reasonably well. It could be tied 'threaded through', tied overhand, used double, ect.
It was also easy to visually check and if tied wrongly, was likely to end up as an overhand knot which in itself would still work.

But as with most 'multiuse' anythings, there are specific knots that do a particular job far better. If you are 'working a route' and taking multiple falls, then a Fig 8 become impossible to undo and a Yosemite bowline (for instance) is better, the rope strands in a Fig 8 don't lie well when loaded three ways and an Alpine butterfly is better, when joining ropes permenatly as on a chock, it's too bulky so a double fisherman's is used instead, and when making a temporary join in an abseil rope, the Fig 8 is too symmetrical, so an overhand knot is better (or European deathknot as the Americans call it).

If a knot staying done up is 'mission critical' then it's often combined with a stopper knot, but the worst thing you want with frozenhands and rope in -20 temperatures and gale force winds is a knot that is difficult to undo with gloved hands.

 

[Fiddlesticks]

I do remember getting to the top of a bolted route in N. Wales to find no lower-off, just a loop set into the rock.
I was able to clip in, untie (scary moment) thread and re-tie the figure 8 without too much trouble - they don't tend to over-tighten.

 

[Nigel_Ward]

Bowlines can shake open.

Try a tucked bowline (yosemite bowline). It will not shake loose and if you can tie a standard bowline it is an easy extra tuck.

 

[Hadenough]

You can tie a bowline with one hand.

Fantastic!

 

[thinwater]

"But the Yosemite Finish requires very careful diligence in getting the knot right. Tied incorrectly all benefits are lost and it is is a disaster waiting to happen. The downside to the Yosemite Bowline is that it is more difficult to visually inspect than the Figure Eight. It was a Yosemite Bowline that was used by Lynn Hill in France, which failed, due most likely to being improperly tied or tightened, causing her to careen 70 feet to the base of the climb. Be sure to practice the Yosemite Bowline and in particular the tightening of the knot many times before trusting it with your life. "

From netknots.com. This is a knot that can be tied wrong. Same with the figure 8 Yosemite finish. I use both for certain things, but they are not idiot proof, like the basic forms.

 

[penberth3]

You can tie a bowline with one hand.

Yes, and you can also tie a figure 8 with one hand.

 

[Fiddlesticks]

Yes, and you can also tie a figure 8 with one hand.

<reaches for youtube... >
... Witchcraft!

 

[Kukri]

I noticed that the instructions that came with my Harken bosun’s chair were most insistent on the use of the figure 8 loop.

Alas I have more confidence in my ability to tie a proper bowline.

 

[Laminar Flow]

I used to climb and was also in the mountain rescue. We always tied in with a figure eight to the harness. The reason was that a bowline, we were told, was known to occasionally come undone. As a sailor I usually use a bowline for tying a loop, except when tying in the bosun's chair - old habits die hard.

 

[mikegunn]

Where using a bowline in a situation where it could shake loose, such as a reefing line around boom, I restrain its working end with a cable tie. It’s strong enough to maintain the knot’s shape but easily broken in a panic scenario.
Mike.

 

[Refueler]

I noticed that the instructions that came with my Harken bosun’s chair were most insistent on the use of the figure 8 loop.

Alas I have more confidence in my ability to tie a proper bowline.

I'm going to search for that now .... interested as I spent all my years at sea with Bosuns Chairs using bowline for attaching chair to the standing line and a Bosuns Chair Hitch for raising / lowering .... would like to compare 'solutions' ...........

Edit : https://www.harkencanvas.com/uploadedFiles/Product_Support/PDF/4790.pdf

Interesting ..... I think like Kukri ... a bowline (I usually add a locking half hitch as security when my life hangs on it !) ... will still be my goto.