Eye splices in mooring warps.

[Kukri]

Death to back splices for slip lines.

On this, we can all agree!?

 

[johnalison]

There is obviously a difference between overnight lines and one's permanent lines, where most of us would have an eye for reinforcement. For occasional mooring one doesn't always get a choice when it comes to length. I have 14m lines for a 10m boat with the loop attached to the cleat on board and the line taken back to the boat for adjustment and to deal with the surplus. For springs I take the loop ashore because they tend to be longer and and can keep the surplus on board, and they will not need to be slipped from on board. The only rule, so far as I am concerned, is that one mustn't leave a bird's nest on the shore cleat or leave line loose on the pontoon.

 

[Roberto]

to believe that the first method that they use to attach a warp should by the final one, but not necessarily, once the boat is secured,

+1
I have 18-20mm dia warps for my 40', but when I approach a new-to-me mooring I often use some 10-12mm lines which are considerably lighter and easier to handle (in particular if the regular ropes are wet) -and create a suspicious look in occasional helpers :d -, once the boat is stopped there is plenty of time to put the bigger lines to work, adjust lengths, etc.

 

[dunedin]

Teaching several hundred sailing school students over a couple of decades has taught me to never, ever have a loop in the end of a dock line.

However, it's personal choice. ??

Kind of depends which end. Certainly not on an end being cast of, as that is asking for trouble. But IMHO fine for the boat end

 

[dunedin]

This works well when you secure to a floating pontoon.
It doesn't work well when you're tied up to a pier or harbour wall and there's tide to contend with.
We seem to live in a world where no-one ties up in tidal areas anymore unless they're tied to a pontoon that floats with the tide....

Or perchance people tie up differently for different circumstances

 

[john_morris_uk]

Or perchance people tie up differently for different circumstances

I hope they do.
My observation of how people tie up their boats in real life doesn’t fill me with confidence though. But each to their own I guess.

 

[Kukri]

Well, I have made my old and now clean 18mm three strand into four springs with soft eyes, and a head rope, a stern rope and a “first ashore line” without eyes. Stopping 24 tons of boat may sometimes include a little gentle surging round the first available cleat, so that is not an application for a soft eye!

And separately I expended some bright yellow 14mm Liros Herkules on making up dedicated double head and stern lines for leaving the berth.

I am now happy. Thanks everyone!

 

[cherod]

Soft eyes yes are neat and tidy and may well be suitable for permanent ( home ) marina lines , but otherwise i like to have a tail at both ends incase of emergency when if with tension on the line it is not possible to slip a fixed loop ,

 

[thinwater]

The OP asks about the possibility of using seizings instead of a traditional tucked splice to make an eye. And immediately the thread devolves into how everyone else but me ties up wrong.

Doesn't this bother anyone? Tie up threads always devolve this way.

I find these discussions just an exersize in one upmanship. In my observations, the only boats that come lose are the result of chafe.

 

[Kukri]

The OP asks about the possibility of using seizings instead of a traditional tucked splice to make an eye. And immediately the thread devolves into how everyone else but me ties up wrong.

Doesn't this bother anyone? Tie up threads always devolve this way.

I find these discussions just an exersize in one upmanship. In my observations, the only boats that come lose are the result of chafe.

Sorry, but where did I ever ask about “using seizings instead of a traditional tucked splice”?

There must be some Transatlantic misunderstanding taking place here, because I simply asked whether people used soft eyes on shore lines, and nobody else saw any reference to seizings.

I can only assume that you read my reference to whipping the end of a rope as a reference to clapping on a racking seizing, an operation which I am well able to do after forty years of gaff cutters, (leading to a working knowledge of the works in literature of Messrs Ashley and Toss), but which was never in discussion here.

In British English, a whipping is what you put on the end of a single rope to stop it unlaying and turning into a “(rather offensive term elided) pennant”, a seizing, either flat round or racking, brings two ropes be they fibre or steel together permanently and an eye splice is a means of forming an eye in fibre or steel rope in which the strands of one are tucked into the other.

“Two nations divided by a common language!”?

 

[thinwater]

Sorry, but where did I ever ask about “using seizings instead of a traditional tucked splice”?

There must be some Transatlantic misunderstanding taking place here, because I simply asked whether people used soft eyes on shore lines, and nobody else saw any reference to seizings.

I can only assume that you read my reference to whipping the end of a rope as a reference to clapping on a racking seizing, an operation which I am well able to do after forty years of gaff cutters, (leading to a working knowledge of the works in literature of Messrs Ashley and Toss), but which was never in discussion here.

In British English, a whipping is what you put on the end of a single rope to stop it unlaying and turning into a “(rather offensive term elided) pennant”, a seizing, either flat round or racking, brings two ropes be they fibre or steel together permanently and an eye splice is a means of forming an eye in fibre or steel rope in which the strands of one are tucked into the other.

“Two nations divided by a common language!”?

No, not a transatlantic thing. I thought you meant that you were going to cut out the bad bit (chafed eye on end) and replace it with a seized eye (which you mistakenly called a whipped eye, a common error, but one you did not make). For what you were asking, it would have simper to say "My old dock lines are worn out. Do I need an eye in my new dock lines?" Just lazy reading on my part. My nautical English is just fine.

No, a racked eye is nowhere near as strong in nylon (about 35%) as a splice and not as reliable as a knot in nylon specifically. I challenged several well known riggers to make them, I pulled them to failure, and they were surprised. Nylon shrinks in diameter when pulled, the seizings become loose, nylon is slippery anyway, and the rope slowly slips through. A knot is better and a tucked splice much better. Pull each to failure and see. In polyester a racked eye does better.

Eye vs. not, and tieing up in general, is still a conversation that has been done to death.

 

[prv]

We seem to live in a world where no-one ties up in tidal areas anymore unless they're tied to a pontoon that floats with the tide....

That's probably more down to the harbours than the yachts. I can't think of anywhere locally that visiting yachts berth alongside a wall.

Pete

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

Sorry, but where did I ever ask about “using seizings instead of a traditional tucked splice”?

There must be some Transatlantic misunderstanding taking place here, because I simply asked whether people used soft eyes on shore lines, and nobody else saw any reference to seizings.

I can only assume that you read my reference to whipping the end of a rope as a reference to clapping on a racking seizing, an operation which I am well able to do after forty years of gaff cutters, (leading to a working knowledge of the works in literature of Messrs Ashley and Toss), but which was never in discussion here.

In British English, a whipping is what you put on the end of a single rope to stop it unlaying and turning into a “(rather offensive term elided) pennant”, a seizing, either flat round or racking, brings two ropes be they fibre or steel together permanently and an eye splice is a means of forming an eye in fibre or steel rope in which the strands of one are tucked into the other.

“Two nations divided by a common language!”?

I believe the Royal Navy used to use the term "Irish Pennant"

 

[Kukri]

I believe the Royal Navy used to use the term "Irish Pennant"

That, or “Paddy’s” in the MN, is the term I was avoiding, yes.?

(I’ve never seen an Irish vessel with one in sight anywhere).

 

[Kukri]

No, not a transatlantic thing. I thought you meant that you were going to cut out the bad bit (chafed eye on end) and replace it with a seized eye (which you mistakenly called a whipped eye, a common error, but one you did not make). For what you were asking, it would have simper to say "My old dock lines are worn out. Do I need an eye in my new dock lines?" Just lazy reading on my part. My nautical English is just fine.

No, a racked eye is nowhere near as strong in nylon (about 35%) as a splice and not as reliable as a knot in nylon specifically. I challenged several well known riggers to make them, I pulled them to failure, and they were surprised. Nylon shrinks in diameter when pulled, the seizings become loose, nylon is slippery anyway, and the rope slowly slips through. A knot is better and a tucked splice much better. Pull each to failure and see. In polyester a racked eye does better.

Eye vs. not, and tieing up in general, is still a conversation that has been done to death.

All clear, misunderstanding tidied up.

On the tendency of seizings to slip in nylon ropes, see my post 17 quoted here:

“From an earlier stage in life I remember the nylon parts of deep sea tugs’ towlines being always made up double with a very long short splice, if you take my meaning, in the middle of one side, with the two thimbles seized in and each leg seized to each side of the thimble. These were huge three strand nylon ropes, 4 and 5 inches diameter.

The whole towing connection, starting from the tug, was made up of the tug’s winch wire, which could be up to a kilometre, the double nylon spring, around 30 metres, the leader, around 100 metres, the towing chain, to take the chafe in the casualty’s Panama fairlead, and finally a number of wire tails made up onto the casualty’s bitts, or, if the tug’s Master had reason to doubt these (and sometimes they just flew off!) round deck-houses or even round the accommodation block.”

The ends of the longer than usual short splice were not tapered and buried but were split in two and two adjacent half ends seized together with rackings. Besides the round seizings at each thimble the legs on each side of each thimble were seized to the thimble to stop the thimble rotating out under load.

Tricky stuff, nylon!

 

[James_Calvert]

Without wishing to expose my preferred alongside mooring method to criticism...

can I just comment that when rigging or using a rope for slipping, there's a lot less friction and potential fouling up involved if the shorter end of the rope is let go and pulled through from the longer end. You wouldn't want or need a soft eye in that rope.

 

[yerffoeg]

In our home berth we have annoying hoops on the pontoons and not cleats. I made permanent lines terminating in eye splices and galvanised eyes shackled to the hoops. It has always worked well for us.

 

[Wing Mark]

A lot of yacht mooring seems to involve trying to put a lot of quite big rope onto quite small cleats.
On my boat, it seems easy to run out of cleat. I don't really want to use smaller warps.
Some spliced eyes might make life easier.

 

[Poignard]

A lot of yacht mooring seems to involve trying to put a lot of quite big rope onto quite small cleats.
On my boat, it seems easy to run out of cleat. I don't really want to use smaller warps.
Some spliced eyes might make life easier.

Some extra cleats would also make life easier.

 

[Daydream believer]

Lines from boat to the pontoon looped round (or through) a cleat and back to the boat are a real pet hate of mine. Why chafe the line in the middle in such a crass unseamanlike way? Lots of people do it but it’s lazy and poor seamanship IMHO. Secure to the cleat (in such a way that it doesn’t use the entire cleat up and stop somebody else using it) and have all the spare line coiled neatly on board the boat.
When you want to leave rerig the line as a slip. If I’m only staying for a few minutes I might leave the line looped around, but never when I leave the boat for any length of time.
(PS And I’ve sailed with Tom Cunliffe and he doesn’t talk bollox. I sail in the real world and I also generally try to use one line for one job. )

I have had the same line for 18 years & no visible sign of chaffe. I never anchor & always use marinas. I spend 5 months of the year away from my own marina, so tie up to lots of different places. Being SH It makes perfect sense to bring the line back to the boat. The only time I might not do it is if I am on long stay in rolly places such as Ostend etc . Or if my bow line is not long enough. That one is deliberately short so that if it falls in the water when entering port it will not reach the prop.
All my lines have spliced eyes that I pass through the cleat & over the horn so I never have to worry about that end dropping off.
I am also an advocate of 1 line 1 job. I have often sat in places with hoops & watched boats come in with great handfuls of string, as if playing cats cradle : the crew loosing control of the boat whilst trying to thread the lines & do multiple tie ups with the same rope. Makes for entertaining viewing