Etiquette question

[Bathdave]

Over the weekend we were on a downwind leg sailing about 160 apparent …I actually wanted to do about 170 to get to my target, which was a marina, but the Genoa kept collapsing and I didn’t want to goosewing at the point

wind was around 8-10 knots apparent, so we were moving along ok

another, slightly longer boat exited the departure point (out of a lock) at the same time, and initially took quite a different line.

it became clear that he was also heading to the same location, and having been both upwind and down wind of us and sailing a different line, he eventually settled on a line that was parallel to us, following a course that would be about 30 m apart when he came alongside, but upwind of us. He gradually gained on us to the point that he was casting a wind shadow that caused our Genoa to keep collapsing.

we were sailing on autopilot, so I clicked round a few degree to windward just to fill the Genoa again. He continued to gain on us slowly and again his wind shadow started impacting us so I clicked up a few degrees again

this continued for another 5 minutes

I wasn’t trying to stop him overtaking if that was what he wanted to do, we were never in a trending towards collision situation, ..I just wanted to keep the boat moving and didn’t see why I had to let him kill me ..

in the end he bore right away, gybed and went behind me, off to 200 -300 metres down wind, where he proceeded to gybe again and set himself on a converging course. Cos he was going maybe .3 knot faster he was ahead of us when our tracks merged 30 minutes later. He did not look amused and seemedlike he might have thought I was luffing him deliberately to stop him overtaking, rather than making small course alteration just to keep my sails filled.

I get it that if we were racing, I could have luffed him and I would normally have tried to stay ahead of him, and he would have been trying to get ahead of us.

I believe I understand the COLREGS

and I know I could have gybed away as he started to blanket me.

my question is about the etiquette involved, as it’s nit something I’ve really experienced or thought about before. if we had been on a reach or a fetch I would have been able to trim the sails to manage the turbulence, but the course angle didn’t seem to give me any option other than head up a few degrees.

- would it have been good etiquette/generally accepted practice for him to give us more room before he tried to overtake us, to leave us our wind ?

- would it have been good etiquette for me to have accepted being blanketed and waited for the few minutes it would take him to get past t the speed differential he had with my sails flapping ?

 

[NormanS]

I would say, the latter.

 

[laika]

When I read a thread titled “etiquette” I always think it’s going to be a misanthropic rant about someone else’s poor manners so it’s uplifting to read something from someone genuinely concerned about giving offence. From a colregs perspective you should have held course and he should have stayed clear of you which doesn’t necessarily mean not stealing some of your wind. Had it been me yes I’d have taken the hit of the Genoa collapsing while he passed. But I don’t think that this sounds like anything to lose sleep over

 

[Poignard]

I would say that, as the vessel being overtaken, you should maintain your course and he, as the overtaking vessel, should keep clear.

The problem is that if you start involving etiquette rather than following the rules, and the other party doesn't know what you are doing, confusion can occur.

 

[Bathdave]

I would say that, as the vessel being overtaken, you should maintain your course and he, as the overtaking vessel, should keep clear.

The problem is that if you start involving etiquette rather than following the rules, and the other party doesn't know what you are doing, confusion can occur.

I get that, I guess I was surprised that he was planning overtake me so close to us, when there was a whole ocean out there, and we were on a slow point of sail …if I had been him, I would have sailed higher to get a significant speed pick up, passed us with 100 m clear between us and then gradually borne away back to my target course, having passed the boat and kept well clear. It seemed poor manners to me, when he had been so far away from us before, to come so close to us to sail over the top of us.

as I said I wasn’t trying to be arsey, or stop him overtaking, and my course changes were 3 or 4 degrees at a time …within the movement range of a manually steered boat, and probably 2-3 minutes apart, so whilst I might not have quite held the same course, the changes were small and spaced out

I don’t see a conflict btw on etiquette and COLREGS here …our course changes were small and in plenty of time, with a closing speed of 0.3 knot, I am not sure how him keeping more clear of me would have been a breach of COLREGS

I know racers get very close, my wife freaks out if another boat gets with 100 m (good job we don’t sail in the Solent !)

 

[awol]

There is no requirement on the boat being overtaken to maintain its course - other rules of Part B I&II are excluded by Rule 13.

 

[Frogmogman]

I’d have luffed him ?

 

[Chiara’s slave]

I’d have luffed him ?

No style. Gybe, and if he gybes too, he's in your wake. Time to pump out.

 

[mjcoon]

No style. Gybe, and if he gybes too, he's in your wake. Time to pump out.

Ah, that's an advantage of having a holding tank that unaccountably didn't get mentioned in that other thread...

 

[Stemar]

- would it have been good etiquette/generally accepted practice for him to give us more room before he tried to overtake us, to leave us our wind ?

- would it have been good etiquette for me to have accepted being blanketed and waited for the few minutes it would take him to get past t the speed differential he had with my sails flapping ?

As a matter of etiquette, I'm inclined to think that both are correct but, in the first case, it would take some pretty good yachtsmanship for the overtaker to realise what was happening and do something about it. I'm not sure I'd be sufficiently aware to pick up on it. A racer would be more likely to, as it's the sort of thing they'd do deliberately to slow down an opponent.

Personally, I think I'd be trying to keep far enough away for my wind shadow not to be an issue, though less from politeness than from a wish not to be that close to another boat.

 

[Sandy]

If anybody gets' that close I offer to put the kettle on!

 

[NormanS]

If you're not racing, why not just accept that the overtaking vessel will be out of your way even quicker if you are momentarily slowed by being in her wind shadow?

 

[Bathdave]

If you're not racing, why not just accept that the overtaking vessel will be out of your way even quicker if you are momentarily slowed by being in her wind shadow?

Cos my sense of good order makes me pathologically upset by a genoa that’s wallowing all over the place ……

 

[flaming]

I'd regard 30m (so about 3 boatlengths of a 32 foot boat) as being plenty of clearance for an overtaking boat to pass you in what sounds like pretty calm conditions.

If I was that overtaking boat I think I'd probably get a bit miffed if that boat then altered course towards me and closed that gap, unless it went up hard and early to position itself to windward of my track whilst I was still say 10+ boatlengths behind. By altering towards him you were taking the clearance he'd decided as appropriate and reducing it. I can see why that would annoy, and how it would be easy for the overtaking boat to conclude that you were being unpredictable and decide that being close to windward of you was potentially risky. Remember, he has no idea how competent you are, he just sees a boat closing the gap to him as he approaches. At a minimum in those circumstances I'm knocking the autohelm off and helming.

Understand not wanting the genoa to flap, the alternative is to briefly sheet it in hard, then ease it out again once the wind shadow has gone.
Or better yet, bear away briefly, the windshadow of a boat is not large, and it would not be difficult to position yourself the other side of it once you are in it, you'd need to go maybe 1 boatlength to leward. We do this all the time in large fleets looking for some clean air to sail in. I think by altering the way you did, you just kept yourself in it for longer and slowed your own progress.

 

[bedouin]

In my experience when two boats have been following roughly the same course for some time it can be difficult to determine whether it is an overtaking situation and it can be dangerous to assume both skippers agree on it.

Irrespective of that I would say it is bad etiquette to alter course towards another boat so as to force him to alter course to avoid you.

As to whether he should have given you more room that is not clear. In general I would say 30m was plenty and had I been in the other boat I doubt if I would have considered the impact of my wind shadow on your boat.

 

[bedouin]

There is no requirement on the boat being overtaken to maintain its course - other rules of Part B I&II are excluded by Rule 13.

I don't want to turn this into a Colregs thread but I don't believe that is the case. I think Rule 13 makes the overtaking vessel the give way vessel and therefore the overtaken vessel becomes stand on with all the associated obligations.

 

[DFL1010]

There is no requirement on the boat being overtaken to maintain its course - other rules of Part B I&II are excluded by Rule 13.

Another vote for can't agree with that one I'm afraid.

If nothing else, that would mean that a boat being overtaken did not have to keep a lookout or maintain a safe speed, for example. Clearly an undesirable situation.

 

[awol]

I don't want to turn this into a Colregs thread

Why on earth not? "Keep out of the way of" is not , in my opinion, the same as "give way" and the "not withstanding" is very clear. Whether luffing an overtaker in a non-racing situation is good etiquette is another matter and would, again in my opinion, require a good reason which may not be obvious to the overtaker.

 

[DJE]

Generally if overtaking a smaller boat I will try and go through her lee - it just seems more polite. But I know a lot of other boats don't.

 

[The Q]

Effectively had the same thing happen to me Sunday, sailing mostly downwind, with the odd reach on an bend in the river. A broads sailing cruiser suddenly changed sides of the river, sat behind and above my little boat, it had several times my sail area..
In this case I was Racing... But he wasn't...
Somewhat annoying and I had no where to go but forwards...