Epsilon Anchors infos

[Neeves]

Are you saying a Viking is the best? Because, I thought that internet opinion was that roll bars are more hindrance than help

If you design an unballasted fixed fluke anchor, Bugel, SARCA, Mantus, Knox (and even a ballasted fixed fluke anchor Rocna, Supreme. ) you either need to design along the lines of Bruce or Boss OR have a roll bar. So....you either accept ballast (weight that adds nothing to hold) or a roll bar (which detracts from setting, but contradictorily adds to hold, as it has 'area')

Anchors are a compromise.

I like Viking because it is combining less weight with hold - it offers the advantage of the lightness of aluminium but does not sacrifice strength. The Aluminium Excel does not sacrifice strength either - but you pay for it with a 7075 alloy shank (which costs oodles).

So there are even more compromises.

But if Viking could extend the lightweight steel concept (and not sacrifice hold) at the prices they currently advertise and make without a roll bar - I'd use one as a primary. In common with many multihulls We simply cannot fit a roll bar anchor as our bow roller is in the middle of the bridgedeck and the bow roller is part of a tension beam that provides strength to the crossbeam, its connected to crossbeam and bridgedeck. So I'm happy with a ballasted anchor that takes advantage of the availability of the lightness offered by HT steels (and maybe has some design advantages that might be offered as a result of using HT steels).

Roll bars are unnecessary but you need accept niche design (Bruce/Boss) or ballast (lots of designs, Ultra, Delta, Excel, Vulcan, Spade......)

There is no indication that anyone can step outside these confines, so its either ballast, a roll bar or some sort of hinged fluke. I think Viking have taken the important step of using HT steel, whether they can make the next step and make an anchor without a roll bar that has 2/3 the weight of Spade/Excel but the same hold - remains to be seen. There is a lot of weight in a mild steel fluke and much of it is there to offer strength - there is potential.

The compromises roll in thick and fast

There is no perfect anchor.

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

Yes Delta was stock item with 50 metres of 10 mm. 50 m warp
Now ,I have 100 m of 10 mm bought from the main dealer "Kananakis Piraeus ,he said, as I know him well, it's the best of the Chinese shit a lot better than the Italian shit he also sells" and the Supreme. No warp.
Yes a Stainless steel spring 75 mm OD.

You could do better for a snubber.

Try these for size

How to: Dealing with Snatch Loads in an Anchorage

The art of snubbing, in the nicest possible way | Mysailing

Anchor Snubber Tips

A Snubber & Hook for all Occasions - Practical Sailor

Tests on Chinese chain by Vyv Cox, check his website, and by myself show Chinese chain is as good as anything else on the market. Most Chinese G30 chain is nearly G40 quality.

I assume you have joined your chain with a Crosby 3/8th" 'C' link. If you have used an unbranded 'C' link then it might be the weak link in your ground tackle - and I would change it as soon as possible. Tecni in the UK, I buy from them, will send one to you air parcel. They are as cheap as chips, or cheap compared to 50m of 10mm chain (or the value of your yacht). Vyv Cox did some work on 'C' links, again check his website. But you are a frequent member here - you will know all this.

Take care, stay safe

Jonathan

 

[Mr Cassandra]

No links 100m straight through .....Think I will stay with my snubber nearly 30 years without a problem unless Panope can make me something out of wood and string

 

[Neeves]

No links 100m straight through .....Think I will stay with my snubber nearly 30 years without a problem unless Panope can make me something out of wood and string

I too would have done as you have done, one complete length of chain, but I would have kept the original 50m and used part as my second or spare rode (if I did not have one already) and we carry short lengths of chain to wrap round trees or rocks when we use shore lines (though shore lines might not be common in the Med).

Just because something has served you well for 30 years (people would say that of a CQR ) does not mean there are not options, nor that the options are not better. Both LFRs and soft shackles are todays must have examples.

Good luck,

Jonathan

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Jonathan
Sometimes it appears that you try very hard to promote your ideas as better than others ,perhaps you also can learn from others .The spring I use, made from 5 /16 dia stainless steel overall length 15 " x 3 1/2 " dia (all sizes approx as I cannot be bothered to check) shackled to a strong anchor point, attaching to this is about , 5 ft of 3/4 3 strand nylon with a good quality chain hook.... British measuring for the Empire and Commonwealth, none of this French shit!
In the 10 years I have used this set up I have never seen the spring totally compressed. Its also good for surge ,when Med mooring when the ferry comes in a bit quick.
Because , I am a benevolent person give this idea a try and if it works well enough to your satisfaction write the results up in one of your magazines.
Act quickly and do not attach it with string and 3x2 .

Good luck

 

[Neeves]

Jonathan
Sometimes it appears that you try very hard to promote your ideas as better than others ,perhaps you also can learn from others .The spring I use, made from 5 /16 dia stainless steel overall length 15 " x 3 1/2 " dia (all sizes approx as I cannot be bothered to check) shackled to a strong anchor point, attaching to this is about , 5 ft of 3/4 3 strand nylon with a good quality chain hook.... British measuring for the Empire and Commonwealth, none of this French shit!
In the 10 years I have used this set up I have never seen the spring totally compressed. Its also good for surge ,when Med mooring when the ferry comes in a bit quick.
Because , I am a benevolent person give this idea a try and if it works well enough to your satisfaction write the results up in one of your magazines.
Act quickly and do not attach it with string and 3x2 .

Good luck

I obviously appear as an arrogant know all, for which I sincerely apologise. I do try to promote my ideas, I sent you a series of articles on snubbers - if I might be 'critical' - I have never read of your idea of using a 3/4" x 5' of three stand nylon attached to a stainless spring defined in you post. In the absence of your mentioning the idea - I would never in my wildest imagination have thought of the idea. So if you Arte suggesting I should not make available ideas, links to articles, - I am puzzled, how else might people have easy access......? I don't make any money from providing links = I fail to understand the negativity (oddly other people thank me for the links.

I never discount new ideas and I wonder why you suggest I am closed to new ideas.

I offer ideas without any suggestion they are the best, nor necessarily novel. I expect no thanks and I make my ideas freely available open source,, you or anyone can copy. With no disrespect to YBW it is restricted - I offer my ideas (to anyone who reads English, French or even Australian or American)

Here is an example

How to boomerang your anchor right back at you | Mysailing

Copied, or used by, 2 manufacturers with no mention of me nor the media from which the ideas were sourced.

I wrote a very critical review of an recently reviewed anchor , the anchor maker was less than happy, but another anchor maker recognised there might be a germ of an idea - modified and significantly improved his product (and made mention on another forum (which no-one will have noticed).

So why do I detect an air of criticism.

Or am I overly sensitive, silly question

Jonathan

 

[Mr Cassandra]

I thought I mentioned it in post 98 " fired " should read fixed .

No problem to me if you are fixed in your ways either . As a journalist you need to self promote yourself and I am happy to read what you say ,exactly the same as watching Panope videos, take the best you can out of them and view your time as entertainment.

Whether or not you are oversensitive i don't have a clue , I only gave you a poor explanation of what I use successfully and suggested you try it out ,the mooring spring even takes the snatch out of the snubber. IMO.
A review from a expert such as you you regarding its performance " good or bad could help others .

No skin in the game
Cheers bob

 

[Neeves]

I thought I mentioned it in post 98 " fired " should read fixed .

No problem to me if you are fixed in your ways either . As a journalist you need to self promote yourself and I am happy to read what you say ,exactly the same as watching Panope videos, take the best you can out of them and view your time as entertainment.

Whether or not you are oversensitive i don't have a clue , I only gave you a poor explanation of what I use successfully and suggested you try it out ,the mooring spring even takes the snatch out of the snubber. IMO.
A review from a expert such as you you regarding its performance " good or bad could help others .

No skin in the game
Cheers bob

Acknowledged

Take care, stay safe

Jonathan

 

[Little Dorrit]

An informative and at times entertaining thread with a happy denouement too!

 

[bluerm166]

Thank you Neeves for your concern.
Since you repeatedly present your theory on the oversizing of anchors so dogmatically and without qualification or nuance it seems reasonable to question it ,if only to see where we have all gone so wrong.
Maybe I just misunderstand the parameters you are considering so perhaps you could define these for us.
Your theory on this appears broadly to be that on a given vesssel the anchor based on hull length in the manufacturers tables should suffice and that an anchor say two sizes above this will offer no benefits because it will not set correctly at the wind speed for which the smaller anchor is selected.So you brook no forces acting on the vessel that will exceed the pull out capability of the smaller item that would continue to set the larger.
Do I have it wrong this far ?

 

[Neeves]

The spread sheets for anchors vs vessel size have been developed by anchor makers and Classification Societies over decades. In general they have stood the test of time and insurance companies, boat builders and marine architects have indicated no discomfort.

My view is, by and large, those spreadsheets are correct.

Why individuals think they know better than the collected wisdom of the anchor makers and the, independent, Classification Socities is a question you might ponder.

If you want to argue I suggest you take your argument to Lewmar, Rocna, Spade, Lloyds, ABS et al. Instead of demanding an answer to your inability to understand my, inadequate, comments why not address your questions to the manufacturers and the organisations tasked with setting maritime internationally safety standards. Once you have collated that data you will then have a fully educated background with which to question me.

You mention 'where have we all gone wrong' - maybe you would also like to define these 'all'. I see a surprising number of vessels with anchors of the recommended size.

You also misuse some words

The SMALL anchor is the correctly sized anchor (it is not small but the recommended size), based on Rocna, et al and Lloyds et al

Take care, stay safe.

Jonathan

 

[Poey50]

The spread sheets for anchors vs vessel size have been developed by anchor makers and Classification Societies over decades. In general they have stood the test of time and insurance companies, boat builders and marine architects have indicated no discomfort.

My view is, by and large, those spreadsheets are correct.

Why individuals think they know better than the collected wisdom of the anchor makers and the, independent, Classification Socities is a question you might ponder.

If you want to argue I suggest you take your argument to Lewmar, Rocna, Spade, Lloyds, ABS et al

You mention 'where have we all gone wrong' - maybe you would like to define these 'all'.

You also misuse some words

The SMALL anchor is the correctly sized anchor (it is not small but the recommended size), based on Rocna, et al and Lloyds et al

Take care, stay safe.

Jonathan

Jonathan, you have the patience of a saint or whatever the evidenced-based secular version of that is.

 

[bluerm166]

So you don't wish to confirm the primary basis of your theory or correct my understanding of it.

To be clear I am not challenging the tables provided by the manufacturers although only some qualify their suggestions, so pull out loads and windage loads are rarely given and vessel displacement is not always a factor.
Happily though we both have Fortress anchors in our quiver so we both share evidence from people who you generally applaud.So you must,especially as a cat owner, have perused their documentation that arrived with your new FX16 and FX37.
They explain things very well in the table of wind speed / load and in the Anchor Selection table .On the former they lay out the requirements in rising wind speeds and in the footnote suggest consideration of going up a size.In the latter they table other broad factors which are likely to require consideration ( although not specifically mentioning tide,also relevant in connection with the wind direction ) and go so far as to suggest the idea of going up by one or two sizes.Actually the Fortress size range is well spaced so I wouldn't jump two sizes there !
Call me gullible ( as you already have) but I find their documentation clear and persuasive.
Presumably you will repudiate it.
Where other manfrs. make little qualification of their tables it seems reasonable to take the figures as relevant to a nominal maximum wind speed (30 kts) and an 'average' hull .
If you have published articles where you expound this theory I would be interested to read them if you can find me a link.

 

[bluerm166]

Fortress Anchor documents referred to in #113

 

[Neeves]

Take your time and approach the Classification Societies and ask them for the basis of their anchor spreadsheets, if you investigate the back ground is all on line. Then ask the anchor makers exactly under what conditions their spread sheets are valid - and do not assume that their spread sheets are based on some 'nominal maximum windspeed' of 30 knots (which in Australian terms would equate to an average wind speed of 20 knots). Here it is assumed maximum gust will be 40% stronger than the average - so check, for example - exactly what Fortress means. Check also does this mean - wind speed at the masthead or wind speed at the deck.

Do not assume - get the data.


I'm interested in the answer to the very simply question I posed:

I quote:

You mention 'where have we all gone wrong' - maybe you would also like to define these 'all'. I see a surprising number of vessels with anchors of the recommended size.

unquote.

In addition to checking on the background to the Classification Society spreadsheets, on which many anchor makers base their spread sheets I could recommend you read through this thread

Dragging of anchors

Have a great weekend

Jonathan

 

[bluerm166]

Neeves ,you remind me of a leading politician here who is highly skilled at dissembly and cannot answer a straight question,also attempting to shut down discussion with supercilious remarks.
You have made the assertion regarding oversize anchors ,which i find to be questionable, in this and previous threads .
I can only hope that you don't divert attention from what can be interesting content in your posts by inserting it again in future threads.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

I have a suspicious that Johnathan likes to think its my way or the highway

 

[NormanS]

Jonathan is in the fortunate position of somehow, when really strong winds are expected, being somewhere else. Some of us just have to face whatever the weather god's throw at us. I spend considerable time on the exposed Atlantic (West) coast of the Outer Hebrides. There, there are plenty of good anchorages, sheltered from the sea, but the lack of significant vegetation means that there is no let up in the wind. 60 or even 70 knot winds are not uncommon.
In these circumstances, an anchor as recommended for winds of 30 knots is wholly inappropriate.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Yes, I still have a problem with the logic .
My 12 ton boat with its 75 hp engine .
Let's say it takes 38 hp to bury my 20 kg Delta.
Then using its full power to bury my 33kg Manson .
Which of these anchors would I be more comfortable with in a 30 kt plus blow.?

 

[Neeves]

Take your time and approach the Classification Societies and ask them for the basis of their anchor spreadsheets, if you investigate the back ground is all on line. Then ask the anchor makers exactly under what conditions their spread sheets are valid - and do not assume that their spread sheets are based on some 'nominal maximum windspeed' of 30 knots (which in Australian terms would equate to an average wind speed of 16 knots). Here it is assumed maximum gust will be 40% stronger than the average - so check, for example - exactly what Fortress means. Check also does this mean - wind speed at the masthead or wind speed at the deck.

Do not assume - get the data.


I'm interested in the answer to the very simply question I posed:

I quote:

You mention 'where have we all gone wrong' - maybe you would also like to define these 'all'. I see a surprising number of vessels with anchors of the recommended size.

unquote.

In addition to checking on the background to the Classification Society spreadsheets, on which many anchor makers base their spread sheets I could recommend you read through this thread

Dragging of anchors

Have a great weekend

Jonathan