Epsilon Anchors infos

[Bouba]

He rates the excel as the best, yet the delta which doesnt seem that different is right near the bottom ?
Wandering around the Portsmouth marinas the delta seems way more popular than any other !

I don’t know about Portsmouth but in the French Mediterranean most new boats are supplied with Deltas on Lewmar rollers, and have been for yonks. It’s quite possible that Epsilon will replace them.

 

[Tradewinds]

He rates the excel as the best, yet the delta which doesnt seem that different is right near the bottom ?
Wandering around the Portsmouth marinas the delta seems way more popular than any other !

The Excel is not a Delta facsimile. There are a lot of subtle differences - totally different anchor performance-wise. Ask Neeves.

 

[Rappey]

With the epsilon being lloyds approved why would a new boat come with a non approved anchor? Maybe a good marketing move for lewmar.
the delta works well for the solent as a lot of it is mud .

 

[Rappey]

There are a lot of subtle differences

Tie a lead weight to the tip, bend the end of the flukes up, now ive a Excel

 

[thinwater]

He rates the excel as the best, yet the delta which doesnt seem that different is right near the bottom ?
Wandering around the Portsmouth marinas the delta seems way more popular than any other !

Excel is that different. Details matter, and performance is worlds apart. I've had both.

I also have Danforth knock-offs that don't seem much different from the real thing. And they are junk.

 

[Tradewinds]

Tie a lead weight to the tip, bend the end of the flukes up, now ive a Excel

Good luck. Don't anchor near me

 

[Neeves]

Interesting to learn that the force arising from windage has a fixed value down under ,presumably based on 40 knots ,the figure employed in some manufacturers nominal tables .Unfortunately wind conditions are different here.
So yes,when I drop my anchor ,two sizes above the nominal weight suggested by the manfr. ,I am happy that in the precise combination of seabed efficiency where it lands,random stones,weed,changing wind strength and direction, waves and swell over a period it will more likely stay put than the minimum weight and size version.
So overall I am happy that my mild neurosis , in which the anchor drags (as has indeed occured in the past ),is better founded than your neurosis in which you worry that others will not listen to your cautions.

You misunderstand - and really its a very simple concept - so I have to worry about you

The windage, and the tension in your rode, is developed by the yacht. Your yacht is a fixed 'device' your anchor does not develop more hold because it is bigger. Hold is the tension in the rode when your anchor is set, stationary. Tension will vary with the wind - but the windage of the yacht is fixed (unless you remove your Bimini . Nor is there an iota of evidence that a bigger anchor sets more easily than a smaller one - in fac t the opposite. Think again why a Fishermans is recommended for weed and how easy it is to bury a small shovel compared to a large one in a hard garden bed. You mention your anchor has dragged - have you ever wondered why?

I would like to hear why your bigger anchor that will develop the same hold as one 2 sizes smaller will be more secure than a smaller anchor (assuming the smaller;ler one is not too small). This is the nub of the issue. Gut feel carries little weight with me. The fact your neighbour has a bigger one, carries no weight with me, and the idea that all long term cruisers have bigger anchors has not a shred of evidence to support it. The ones who blog may carry bigger anchors but just because they shout and are heard does not make them right.

Both anchors will develop identical hold, as they are attached to the same yacht. So why is the bigger anchor, which is set more shallow with a larger lever arm be more secure?

In the absence of data from you - you are only as gullible as most and may be suffering from complacency. Which is simply another reason I worry about you.

My concern is the gullibility of the many and the inherent complacency. I also think you will find better things on which to waste your money, but that's your problem - but I hate to see money thrown about unnecessarily.

Anchors should work by design not size nor weight. Weight is simply a phurphy - a Fortress is as good as a Danforth (though some of the improvement is design) but design matters , a 10kg Viking develops the same hold as a 15kg Spade or Excel (and I have tested all 3). An aluminium Spade or aluminium Excel develops the same hold as their similarly sized steel counterparts - I have tested them all. According to Lewmar an Epsilon develops a hold similar to the same weight Excel, Spade, Rocna, Supreme - all of which have been tested using the same, or similar protocols. No-one else, of which I am aware, other than Lewmar has tested an Epsilon for hold. A Viking which looks, superficially similar to a Mantus, develops roughly twice the hold - design matters! I've tested the 10kg Viking and a 15kg Mantus.

We use a 8kg aluminium Excel as a primary anchor, 38' x 7t cat - what did you waste your money on? We also carry a 8kg aluminium Spade, FX 16 and FX 37. We use a 6mm chain (how much weight are you carrying as ballast in your chain locker).

Now prove me wrong. If you cannot prove me wrong I'll assume you have simply followed the raucous crowd, meekly, like a sheep to slaughter.

Take care, stay safe

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

My understanding is that boat builders buy packages from the component suppliers. Along with your pallet of hatches, portlights, windlass, winches you get chain and anchors. I don't know if Lewmar bundle these up into 'boat' packs, which would be sensible, so everything for a Benny 45 on one pallet, or if you get a pallet of anchors. Lewmar happen to have an ability to supply many of the bits and pieces (importantly of quality) and anchors fits neatly into the order. I think the likes of Benny.Jenny and Bav get preferential pricing and as alternative anchors are not Classification Society certificated (which Delta is) or are more expensive then Delta, or CQR, then Delta appears on all the bow rollers. The competition, say Kobra is not approved (as far as I know) and Rocna and Spade are simply too expensive. Vetus who are one of the other suppliers don't quite have the reach of Lewmar and thus miss out on the 'bundle' orders (and don't have certificated anchors.)

The Epsilon will neatly replace the Delta as it is certificated, to a higher level than Delta (twice the hold) and seems very well priced. Expect to see Epsilon replace Delta on the bow rollers of production yachts at boat shows (remember boat shows?!) and if it performs (and as I have said I reserve judgement but have some confidence in both Lewmar and Classification Society testing) we will see Epsilon have a long lifespan on these new yachts and there will be less, or no, need to replace - at all.

Epsilon will also appear in chandlers and as not everyone reads or watches anchor videos (in fact many will never have heard of Panope) the anchor will develop another sales route for people who want to upgrade their old CQR, Bruce, Delta (or lose same). I don't know if chandlers work on consignment stock but their buying a few Epsilons will be factorially cheaper than holding a few Spades or Excels - which do you think the chandler will recommend?

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

Good luck. Don't anchor near me

Apologies, wrong post

 

[Neeves]

Tie a lead weight to the tip, bend the end of the flukes up, now ive a Excel

Correct thread.

There is no lead in an Excel

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

Anchors are a real anomaly.

If I was to announce that for no, measured, increase in performance all AIS devices were to increase in cost by 20% there would be a hue and cry. Equally if we were all required to carry extra large lifebuoys (at extra cost) just in case we ever carried a 200kg crew member there would be another hue and cry

But people shell out the extra cash for an anchor, over and above the recommendation of Classification Societies, the recommendation of anchor manufacturer and the anchor supplied by the boat builder. All the data on anchor testing shows that the performance, measured as hold, is factorially greater than anything you are likely to experience in your worst nightmare. The only proof is from those who say 'I have never dragged with my oversized anchor (and this is obviously and irrefutably proof bigger anchors are better)' - the fac t they never used an anchor of the recommended size of the same design is not part of the thought process.

A common comment on Fortress is that in a change of tide the anchor can trip and not reset - it will trip if the chain gets under the stock (because the anchor is too big to set deeply) - no-one considers the extrapolation.

If Garmin or Lewmar could latch onto the thought processes that drive anchor purchases - their shares would be worth buying.

No wonder there are so m any anchor makers - its a profitable business if you can get established.

Anchor purchase is driven by emotion (basically fear or a lack of confidence). - how to transplant that to a chart plotter or hatch


On refection.

If I knew then what I know now I might have chosen a different career path. Would I recommend my grandchildren to consider a career in anchor manufacture - No, I hope reason will eventually prevail - and then it will simply be a simple metal fabrication activity with produce t sold only on merit.

Stay safe, take care - Covid has a few years to run

Jonathan

 

[Mr Cassandra]

I don’t know about Portsmouth but in the French Mediterranean most new boats are supplied with Deltas on Lewmar rollers, and have been for yonks. It’s quite possible that Epsilon will replace them.

There are a couple of French cats now in lavrio Greece with the Epsilon anchor attached ,or something very similar ?

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Are you saying Neeves, that anchor hold has more to do with the size of your engine, rather than the size of your anchor?

 

[Neeves]

Are you saying Neeves, that anchor hold has more to do with the size of your engine, rather than the size of your anchor?

I cannot quite work out if you are simply being obtuse or.....

The hold developed by an anchor is the tension in the rode. That is how hold is measured, by measuring the tension in the rode. The ultimate holding capacity (often abbreviated to 'holding capacity') is the tension in the rode when the anchor (having been set and stationary) starts to move, at noticeable and steady speed. Initially that tension will be constant but the tension will fall, quite rapidly as the anchor surfaces and drags, at a trot.

There is a crude rule of thumb that you can develop around 100kg of thrust for every 10hp of your engine.

Thus is you have a small engine, 10hp, the tension in your rode that the ENGINE will develop is about 100kg and if you have a bigger engine, say 30hp then the tension will be 300kg.

If you have a big, or small anchor those figures still stand - the tension in the rode will be 100kg or 300kg and the hold developed will be 100kg and 300kg (whether the anchor is big or small.

Let us now imagine that the windage of your yacht at 30 knots develops a tension of 400kg then both anchors will set further, to the exact same tension in the rode, now of 400kg. The hold of both the big and small anchor remains the same, 400kg.

Now say the wind picks up to 50 knots and the tension in the rode increases to 700kg then each anchor (big or small), will have a hold of 700kg.

Now, stretch your imagination and the wind continues to increase and let us assume you have a 15kg Spade (the size recommended for your yacht by Spade), there is no chop (you are subject only to wind) and you have a 7:1 or greater scope in 6m of water depth then your 15kg Spade will not drag, until it reaches its ultimate hold until the tension is 2,000kg. The 20kg Spade of the identical yacht alongside you, with the same scope etc etc will have an ultimate hold of about 2,300kg. I can assure you your crew will have mutinied before the tension reaches 1,000kg and your wife will have confirmed divorce proceedings before your yacht in any way approach the ultimate hold of 2,000kg (I'm assuming your wife is of sterner stuff and stronger loyalty of your crew). I have measured 650kg - I was sufficiently concerned I did not hang around (the data was not worth the anxiety) to find out what it was like at higher tensions. However having decided to abandon measuring rode tensions the next challenge was lifting the anchor (an Excel) which had buried deeply, much more so than the max 400kg of tension I can develop with our twin engines.

The 650kg developed was at a lowly 35 knots at 3:1 scope, no snubber with 9m of chain deployed. Our yacht has the windage of a 45' Bav. Using a (good) snubber, better a bridle and using a sensible scope will reduce the tension in the rode factorially. Chop ands veering (both resulting in snatch loads) will reduce ultimate hold but the 'normal' movement of your yacht at anchor will encourage you anchor to set more deeply and develop additional hold beyond your power set.

Now - let me know what you do not understand and I am more than happy to clarify any doubts you might have.

Note also - if you double anchor size (weight) you DO NOT double hold. There is very limited data on anchor scaling but think conservatively and double weight and you might increase hold by 75% (and if you are lucky 85%, I don't think I am that lucky ). Fortress increases hold by 83% if you double weight and Bruce in large (oil rig) sizes increases hold by 70% if you double size.

In order to derive the constant you need multiple tests of multiple sizes of the same anchor, using the appropriately sized rode, in the same seabed at the same depth and then repeat in different seabeds. Most anchor testing conducted for our anchors focusses on 15kg anchors - measuring the hold of a, say 30kg anchor demands beefy kit and a real focus on safety. Note that a 15kg anchor would commonly be used with 8mm chain and the ultimate hold is 2,000kg but the chain WLL is 750kg and the minimum chain strength is only 3,000kg (not much margin of safety ). There are stronger chains, most chain is G30 and there is a G120 but the strongest chain that is galvanised is a G80. We are using a G80 6mm chan. Few people 'in the industry' will use high tensile chain - its expensive (unless you do it as I have done) so there are major problems (with any anchor testing).

Jonathan

 

[Mr Cassandra]

cannot quite work out if you are simply being obtuse or...

I always thought that there's no such thing as a stupid question ,,not so sure if its the same for an answer.

So as I have a Beneteau 46.1 76 hp engine, with a 36 kg Mason supreme. Would the engine thrust not Bury this Anchor deeper where it might pull out my 20kg Delta ?

 

[Neeves]

cannot quite work out if you are simply being obtuse or...

I always thought that there's no such thing as a stupid question ,,not so sure if its the same for an answer.

So as I have a Beneteau 46.1 76 hp engine, with a 36 kg Mason supreme. Would not the engine thrust not Bury this Anchor deeper where it might pull out my 20kg Delta ?

You are not comparing apples with apples.

A Supreme will engage dependably the Delta requires more skill and patience.

Set the Delta with skill and patience in sand and it will hold approx 1150kg - only you know if you have the skill and patience. In thin mud - your 20 kg anchor would, sadly, be (and maybe as you discovered) a sorry joke. Horses for courses - or anchors for seabeds - no anchor is perfect. As I mentioned, short scope, no snubber, yawing, horsing - no anchor will perform at its best.

With a 76hp engine you have the potential to develop 760 kg of tension in your rode at cruising revs - if you could set your Delta with care and patience and once engaged increase revs gently in a sand seabed then the anchor will hold. However the Supreme will engage with ease (I have used and tested one 15kg) and set without much care and will accept your 760kg tension - but then so would a 20kg Manson Supreme (which would have an ultimate hold of around 2350kg).

However the potential tension you can develop with your engine will be far in excess of the tension that is likely to develop on your yacht from wind that you can comfortably accept at anchor and I would hope you would never, ever, be subject to a rode tension of 760kg.

Tell us about your snubber type and practice.

Jonathan

 

[Bouba]

You misunderstand - and really its a very simple concept - so I have to worry about you

The windage, and the tension in your rode, is developed by the yacht. Your yacht is a fixed 'device' your anchor does not develop more hold because it is bigger. Hold is the tension in the rode when your anchor is set, stationary. Tension will vary with the wind - but the windage of the yacht is fixed (unless you remove your Bimini . Nor is there an iota of evidence that a bigger anchor sets more easily than a smaller one - in fac t the opposite. Think again why a Fishermans is recommended for weed and how easy it is to bury a small shovel compared to a large one in a hard garden bed. You mention your anchor has dragged - have you ever wondered why?

I would like to hear why your bigger anchor that will develop the same hold as one 2 sizes smaller will be more secure than a smaller anchor (assuming the smaller;ler one is not too small). This is the nub of the issue. Gut feel carries little weight with me. The fact your neighbour has a bigger one, carries no weight with me, and the idea that all long term cruisers have bigger anchors has not a shred of evidence to support it. The ones who blog may carry bigger anchors but just because they shout and are heard does not make them right.

Both anchors will develop identical hold, as they are attached to the same yacht. So why is the bigger anchor, which is set more shallow with a larger lever arm be more secure?

In the absence of data from you - you are only as gullible as most and may be suffering from complacency. Which is simply another reason I worry about you.

My concern is the gullibility of the many and the inherent complacency. I also think you will find better things on which to waste your money, but that's your problem - but I hate to see money thrown about unnecessarily.

Anchors should work by design not size nor weight. Weight is simply a phurphy - a Fortress is as good as a Danforth (though some of the improvement is design) but design matters , a 10kg Viking develops the same hold as a 15kg Spade or Excel (and I have tested all 3). An aluminium Spade or aluminium Excel develops the same hold as their similarly sized steel counterparts - I have tested them all. According to Lewmar an Epsilon develops a hold similar to the same weight Excel, Spade, Rocna, Supreme - all of which have been tested using the same, or similar protocols. No-one else, of which I am aware, other than Lewmar has tested an Epsilon for hold. A Viking which looks, superficially similar to a Mantus, develops roughly twice the hold - design matters! I've tested the 10kg Viking and a 15kg Mantus.

We use a 8kg aluminium Excel as a primary anchor, 38' x 7t cat - what did you waste your money on? We also carry a 8kg aluminium Spade, FX 16 and FX 37. We use a 6mm chain (how much weight are you carrying as ballast in your chain locker).

Now prove me wrong. If you cannot prove me wrong I'll assume you have simply followed the raucous crowd, meekly, like a sheep to slaughter.

Take care, stay safe

Jonathan

Are you saying a Viking is the best? Because, I thought that internet opinion was that roll bars are more hindrance than help

 

[Mr Cassandra]

With reference to snubber I have a 3" moring spring permanently fixed to a cleat 3/4 3 strand nylon approx a yard + long with a chain hook

 

[Neeves]

With reference to snubber I have a 3" moring spring permanently fired to a cleat 3/4 3 strand nylon approx a yard long with a chain hook

I'm always interested in what boat builders supply as standard kit. You have a lovely yacht the contrast with the 2 anchors is quite large. I assume the Delta came with the yacht and had appropriate chain (which might not quite 'match' the new anchor). What chain are you equiped with?

Is a - 3" mooring spring, actually a stainless spring?

Jonathan

 

[Mr Cassandra]

I'm always interested in what boat builders supply as standard kit. You have a lovely yacht the contrast with the 2 anchors is quite large. I assume the Delta came with the yacht and had appropriate chain (which might not quite 'match' the new anchor). What chain are you equiped with?

Is a - 3" mooring spring, actually a stainless spring?

Jonathan

Yes Delta was stock item with 50 metres of 10 mm. 50 m warp
Now ,I have 100 m of 10 mm bought from the main dealer "Kananakis Piraeus ,he said, as I know him well, it's the best of the Chinese shit a lot better than the Italian shit he also sells" and the Supreme. No warp.
Yes a Stainless steel spring 75 mm OD.