Electronic Visual Distress Signal

[capnsensible]

Dunno why people have such a problem with distress pyros. Provided they are used correctly, they are a very effective way of attracting attention.

Do what it says on the box and there is nothing to be scared of.

 

[lustyd]

why people have such a problem with distress pyros

Expense, management and disposal. The life of them is too short, and in the UK they are quite difficult to dispose of. They're also quite pricey given the frequency of replacement.
The actual device I think most people are comfortable with, but may be wrong there.

 

[Mark-1]

I think most of us have a flag on board, but much more noticeable to hoist some sallopettes up the mast if attracting attention is the aim

I've often wondered how I'd improvise something to indicate I was the boat in trouble in a crowd or even to suggest to local boats I was in trouble.* That is bloody genius. Why have I never thought of that? (Waving a t shirt would have been my go to.)

* I reckon a whistle and oilies from the cross tree would create enough curiosity for people to pop over to ask if I was ok.

 

[ylop]

... they are a very effective way of attracting attention...

How effective? compared to a VHF radio? compared to EPIRB/PLB? compared to a mobile phone?

There's two jobs for pyros: 1. signal distress; 2. pinpoint your location to rescuers. They can only be useful for the first if someone (who knows what it is and what to do) sees it during its 1 minute or so of illumination. Is anyone aware of a situation where PLB and VHF failed to get attention but flares did? The second they certainly can be useful for but so too could an EVDS - but EVDS may have some advantages (not least of which I can trust to a less experienced crew member).

 

[boomerangben]

How effective? compared to a VHF radio? compared to EPIRB/PLB? compared to a mobile phone?

There's two jobs for pyros: 1. signal distress; 2. pinpoint your location to rescuers. They can only be useful for the first if someone (who knows what it is and what to do) sees it during its 1 minute or so of illumination. Is anyone aware of a situation where PLB and VHF failed to get attention but flares did? The second they certainly can be useful for but so too could an EVDS - but EVDS may have some advantages (not least of which I can trust to a less experienced crew member).

They are effective enough to get the CG initiating searches due to sightings of flares without radio or satellite coms. Sadly some were false alarms with malicious intent. Pyros also have advantages over EVDS the main one, which seems to be an elephant in the room for many pro EVDS people: they work and are approved for use during the day when most of us do most of our sailing. Even the USCG recognise that EVDS are night only.

I know we’ve been here before and I am not trying to change your or anyone’s firmly held opinions, merely providing balance for those who haven’t. Each to their own

 

[010169]

I got back into sailing just as laser flares were arriving. I can see their benefits but do wonder how they compare on a sunny day and how they compare to a rocket flare

 

[Mark-1]

How effective? compared to a VHF radio? compared to EPIRB/PLB? compared to a mobile phone?

There's two jobs for pyros: 1. signal distress; 2. pinpoint your location to rescuers. They can only be useful for the first if someone (who knows what it is and what to do) sees it during its 1 minute or so of illumination. Is anyone aware of a situation where PLB and VHF failed to get attention but flares did? The second they certainly can be useful for but so too could an EVDS - but EVDS may have some advantages (not least of which I can trust to a less experienced crew member).

I visited my local RNLI station a few weeks back and there were a large number of shouts recorded over the years for "flare sighted" with nothing found. I didn't see *any* Epirb/VHF/PLB "deployments" where nothing was found.

However, since I've had kids, that last sentence really resonates with me. My 7yo can work the VHF and he can practice with the VHF for real every time we're on the boat so he and I know he can do it. That's a massive advantage. He can't practice with an Epirb/PLB but he can't really hurt himself or damage the boat with them either, I'd trust him to deploy them. I suspect I could use all of them one handed myself, anyway. I simply wouldn't want my 7yo using flares in anger. Critically I wouldn't allow him to practice with one even if my wife would, which she wouldn't.

(Not that I claim to be capable of using a flare safely myself either. I've never used one in a real emergency and I've only ever deployed two. Five years ago, just to dispose of them. That time I was getting glowing ash all over the place which doesn't seem ideal.)

These arguments have been rehearsed on these boards a thousand times but that last point hasn't had much of an airing and it's a good one. The "spare person" in a crisis is highly unlikely to be experienced with pyros.

 

[Mark-1]

They are effective enough to get the CG initiating searches to sightings of flares without radio or coms. Sadly some were false alarms

Which is great if you want to initiate a search. If you want to initiate a rescue it's worth considering the modern alternatives.

...and I'm not sure they're really that effective at initiating a search. We can't know how many times literally nobody saw because those guys are typically dead but I've read at least two accounts of people firing flares directly in front of ships and the ship taking not action at all. Even a handheld VHF would have had them talking direct instantly. (You're going to ask me who's and I'm going to give to the worst reference ever. One was either Bailey's/Robertson's/Callahan and the other was David Lewis, Ice Bird or possibly David Mercy, Berserk. Sorry!)

 

[lustyd]

Even a handheld VHF would have had them talking direct instantly.

Not necessarily. We were nearly run down off the Mull of Galloway once and after repeated calls on the VHF (we really didn't want to tack due to sea state and conditions) they eventually answered after 10 minutes and apologised as they'd been hoovering and didn't hear the VHF.

 

[Mark-1]

Not necessarily. We were nearly run down off the Mull of Galloway once and after repeated calls on the VHF (we really didn't want to tack due to sea state and conditions) they eventually answered after 10 minutes and apologised as they'd been hoovering and didn't hear the VHF.

Fair point, I've heard an RFA and a Ferry fail to respond on 16 and this was back in the days when they legally had to Monitor 16. Of course if it had been a distress call in the middle of nowhere they might have responded.

 

[lustyd]

Yes to be fair it wasn't a distress call and we didn't use DSC. They also wouldn't have had any reason to expect another boat to be out there in October in a F9, let alone a 40' yacht. But still...would have been nice if they were listening!

 

[William_H]

Does it have to be epirb or is PLB acceptable?

Yes interestingly the requirement for carriage of EPIRB has been around for some years and has proved very effective. This new amendment to rules does seem to accept PLB with GPS as an alternative to EPIRB. Note that a thousand or more kilometers of WA coast is really remote. (good fishing ) but certainly mobile phone is useless and marine VHF also not releiable (few other boats or ships) although there are some VHF repeaters installed in more popular areas. So virtually all official SAR effort relies on EPIRB/PLB with GPS. Note they claim to be able to locate you to 200m so perhaps final location in day light not so critical. ol'will

 

[lustyd]

Yes interestingly the requirement for carriage of EPIRB has been around for some years and has proved very effective. This new amendment to rules does seem to accept PLB with GPS as an alternative to EPIRB.

Sounds like a well thought out and reasonable requirement. I don't think I'd object to full EPIRB requirement given how long they last and how effective they can be.
With PLB allowance I think I'm even OK without a minimum boat size for the rule, they are very cheap and have no running costs. Mine is over 10 years old and the battery still tests fine, and I believe guidance is being updated to reflect the longevity of the batteries.

 

[ylop]

They are effective enough to get the CG initiating searches due to sightings of flares without radio or satellite coms.

True, but I can’t recall when I last heard of the CG finding someone in distress after a sighting of a flare as the first alert to the CG.

Pyros also have advantages over EVDS the main one, which seems to be an elephant in the room for many pro EVDS people: they work and are approved for use during the day when most of us do most of our sailing.

But orange smoke does the same (or a 2m orange flag with a black square and circle on it), neither of which would be a fire hazard of its own.

I know we’ve been here before and I am not trying to change your or anyone’s firmly held opinions, merely providing balance for those who haven’t. Each to their own

That’s ok because I don’t have firmly held views! I currently have pyros but when replacement time comes I may switch.

 

[boomerangben]

True, but I can’t recall when I last heard of the CG finding someone in distress after a sighting of a flare as the first alert to the CG.


But orange smoke does the same (or a 2m orange flag with a black square and circle on it), neither of which would be a fire hazard of its own.

That’s ok because I don’t have firmly held views! I currently have pyros but when replacement time comes I may switch.

I must admit that I do class smokes as pyros and trust me they get hot and have been known to cause fires. But the floating ones you can light and toss over the side.

I am in no way saying flares are better than VHF/EPIRB/PLB, merely there are a myriad of emergency situations so having a “tool box” with lots of options means you can optimise your means of getting help. I would always advocate the use of radios and other electronic transmitting devices to raise the alarm in the first instance. But to me the big advantages of flares and smokes are that a) if someone overhears you mayday but misses the position, takes a look around and sees a flare they don’t need to wait for a repeat of the position b) you are readily identified amongst other vessels and c) a day night will fit in a pouch in a life jacket (with a PLB and/or VHF) so if you fall over board, capsize the dinghy, get blown away on your SUP etc, you can be easily spotted. Of course the cost benefit/disposal benefit equations are more complex

 

[rotrax]

My feelings exactly, modified by the fact that I will keep my fireworks, but when they are date expired, I shall not replace them.

Someone doubted the ability of the Electronic Distress signals in daylight. The Orion I have had a video showing its 10 NM range in darkness - this was very, very good - and 3 NM range in daylight. The daylight was not as effective by a long chalk, but was adequate.

I am minded of the between the wars Heliograph used in colonial campaigns by our Army. They seemed to manage finding a light flashing intermittently over long distances for morse code communication. As the light source was the sun, they were useless at night or on cloudy/rainy days. The Orion fixes that problem.

 

[Tranona]

Yes interestingly the requirement for carriage of EPIRB has been around for some years and has proved very effective. This new amendment to rules does seem to accept PLB with GPS as an alternative to EPIRB. Note that a thousand or more kilometers of WA coast is really remote. (good fishing ) but certainly mobile phone is useless and marine VHF also not releiable (few other boats or ships) although there are some VHF repeaters installed in more popular areas. So virtually all official SAR effort relies on EPIRB/PLB with GPS. Note they claim to be able to locate you to 200m so perhaps final location in day light not so critical. ol'will

That is an important point. EPIRBs came from Australia and are used extensively for land based rescues as well as sea, simply because of the lack of alternative methods of communication.

About 5 years ago I analysed the stats on EPIRB deployments by type of usage (marine, land, air) and geographic location. No surprises, but there were virtually none in N European coastal waters which is hardly surprising given the well developed alternatives that are available. The number may well have increased since then because more are being sold, but will still be very small compared with the main users/locations.

 

[lydiamight]

You could always carry a barrel of tar and set light to it when in distress.

 

[Mark-1]

I must admit that I do class smokes as pyros and trust me they get hot and have been known to cause fires. But the floating ones you can light and toss over the side.

I am in no way saying flares are better than VHF/EPIRB/PLB, merely there are a myriad of emergency situations so having a “tool box” with lots of options means you can optimise your means of getting help. I would always advocate the use of radios and other electronic transmitting devices to raise the alarm in the first instance. But to me the big advantages of flares and smokes are that a) if someone overhears you mayday but misses the position, takes a look around and sees a flare they don’t need to wait for a repeat of the position b) you are readily identified amongst other vessels and c) a day night will fit in a pouch in a life jacket (with a PLB and/or VHF) so if you fall over board, capsize the dinghy, get blown away on your SUP etc, you can be easily spotted. Of course the cost benefit/disposal benefit equations are more complex

If you want to signal with light, I'm still not convinced that Flares are the way to do it, even if daylight. The burn time of a flare is limited and you can't easily practice with it. An "electronic light emitter" sacrifices range but (IMHO) more than makes up for it with ease of use, safety, the fact you can practice with it on a whim, duration. Flares are unique among communication methods in that they can make make the situation worse!

Having said all that if it's daylight and busy I really think the "hoist your oilies to the spreaders" idea gives you more visibility over a long period than a 4 minute really bright burn. And best of all the weakest crew member can safely be given the task. That idea is genius IMHO. Also it satisfies my prejudice that emergency procedures are better if they're similar to stuff you do every day. (A big advantage of the VHF.) My kids raise the burgee every time they're on the boat. It turns out they've been training for emergency oilie deployment almost all their lives.