Electric Boats

[kashurst]

On so many levels no, no ,no and no.

EV battery manufacturers have this notion that old inefficient batteries will be used in other applications. Who wants to base these alternative technologies around failing batteries with ever decreasing capacity. It’s like a game of pass the parcel where the last person holding the baby has to dispose of the thing. There are EVs sitting in fields that no one wants or is able to recycle.


IC engines are simple to produce, cheap to produce - I remember speaking to a chap years ago who told me a Fiesta engine cost around $100 to produce at cost. They are totally recyclable, metal is probably the most recyclable material we have. Take a look on Youtube for splitting a Tesla motor. Loads of electronics, masses of components, really hard to separate and recycle. Also VERY EXPENSIVE to produce.

The battery ages much faster than an IC engine. You might get a 5 or 10 % deterioration over 20 years with an IC engine but it’s not a given. ANY new car can do high milages. That’s really easy. The harder part is getting cost and longevity of total life, say 20 years. Teslas haven’t been around long enough yet to quote this figure. Given how tightly Tesla are trying to control after market service and parts supply the cars will quickly reach a non economic value and be removed from circulation.

You can’t just say the oil industry uses child labour but battery manufacture doesn’t That is not true, there have been lots of reports showing child labour in the battery raw material supply chain.

On so many levels what a crock.......
EV car batteries are being recycled already. VW built a plant to do exactly that. EV batterys are a collection of 100, 200, 300 or more individual cells which can be removed checked and reinstalled, put into refurbed complete battery s for EVs or for buffer banks for very high power chargers etc. BMW are already doing this with the cells from old i3s. An EV battery is not just one big lump that is scrap at the first sign of a problem.

I would love to meet this chap who claims a ford fiesta engine costs $100. There might be $100 worth of raw materials in it but I suspect even that is very low balling it. No doubt a certain Bavarian based poster can explain better what a car engine really costs. A car engine weighs 150 to 350 Kgs Just look up the price of processed raw metals. Then there is the plant and machinery to create it.

How much electronics is there in a modern IC car compared to an EV - pretty similar when you break them down, sat navs, ABS, entertainment, etc An EV has a battery managment system but it does NOT have gearbox computers or engine management ECUs. Electronics has been recycled for decades - there is a lot of gold in it. Recycling automotive electronics is no different to old TVs and computers.

As to child labour the oil companies have been using cobalt as a catalyst to get sulphur out of fuel for DECADES - nobody asked where they got it. Suddenly EVs start using it and the oil companies in a great piece of "whataboutism" point out child labour issues. Ask Porsche BMW, VW, Hyundai etc where they get their raw materials. They have gone to a LOT of trouble to ensure supply chain quality. Do you seriously think VW and Porsche can afford another nasty scandal? At the start of serious EV manufacturing I suspect the EV designers didn't ask where the cobalt came from. They do now. Either way it doesn't matter, EVs have brought this nasty issue into focus and the use of child labour will stop and cobalt is being designed out as it is expensive. Why didn't the oil companies stop child labour? After all they are the biggest consumers of cobalt.

Teslas sales model at the moment allows them to do what ever they like. Other OEMs will/may take a different view. There are already EV specialists in the UK repairing and refurbing older Nissan Leafs. They will learn how to do Teslas, BMWs etc as the numbers grow. In Scandinavia they are a long way ahead on that business as there has been a lot more EVs for quite a while. You can have an old tired Tesla, stripped and totally refurbed there.

As for ageing, the potential limiting factor in an EV is battery degradation. So far reports support Teslas long term view. As the battery ages it may reduce range but it doesn't reduce performance and more importantly it does not increase emmissions. If my EV with a range of 250 miles lost 10% of its range over ten years I doubt I would notice. But I would notice a knackered turbo, oil leak, or a dead catalytic converter. How much does it cost to rebuild a Porsche engine if the ims bearing fails?
The electric motors will pretty much never wear out. The brakes are rarely used, people are seeing over 100K out of the pads.

By 2030 there will be a lot of EVs running around, sales have rocketed. By 2035 no new IC cars - enjoy it whilst it lasts. I wouldn't sit hoping for some new magic synthetic fuel either. So far it costs too much and is wasteful of energy that could be just put into a battery directly.
As a Porsche specialist perhaps its time to consider what business are you really in? What will you do when people start asking for Taycans, then electric Macans or Caymans ? The 2030 911 will be electric..........9 years left.

 

[henryf]

My $100 figure was 25 years ago. You will note I said “ some years ago”. At the time a new car was probably £5-6,000 now they are 3 times that so costs will have risen.

The scale of battery recycling is currently tiny. Yes, some people are trying to find uses for old EV batteries but it’s a bit of a diversion. With millions to dispose of who wants sub prime power units that will fail quickly.

The fact you mention the weight of an IC engine and it’s scrap value only goes to emphasise how recyclable they are. I wasn’t referring to the whole vehicle when I mentioned electronics, just the electric motor it’s self. Go on youtube and look at people pulling a Tesla motor apart.

Now you mention whole vehicle recycling how would you propose we deal with multi composite bonded Teslas? A steel car is simple, an aluminium car worth lots of money but a Tesla is not unlike all those old speed boats you see dumped.

Finally good luck with your 10% range deterioration over 10 years. Currently manufacturers use 30% range deterioration as the the threshold before they acknowledge it happening. There are Nissan Leafs kicking around in the used market that struggle to get 60 miles.

Yes, cottage industries of enthusiasts trying to keep old EVs alive do exist but they are working without any support from manufacturers who want to underpin new vehicle sales and £150-200 per hour franchise labour rates. At best the independents are shooting blind, at worst people will end up causing vehicle fires.

I have a very keen interest in vehicle sustainability, I set up a business because I was fed up with planned obsolescence, scrapping perfectly good cars because a replacement part cost more than the intrinsic value of the vehicle. The oldest car we currently have for sale is around 50 years. We sell loads of 25 year old vehicles and the oldest vehicle I personally own is from 1923.

What’s interesting is that the emissions on our old Porsches are still within tolerance. Performance is still within 5% and parts availability is essentially 100%. There are hundreds of specialist engineers able to service and maintain the vehicles for a lot less money than the franchise dealers whilst still using specialist, often factory equipment.

At the end of life vehicles are thoroughly recycled be it materials recycling or individual component recycling to sell second hand or use as core for rebuilding.

 

[John100156]

Thought this was interesting on You Tube - a new 60ft Power Cat:

I think it still mentions a 1000L tank in the spec., at the end, probably to power the Volvo generator. Not too keen on the PV arrays, but clearly we are at the inception stages of a market for larger EB's, quite exciting really.

4 knots though , thought the bit about deploying a kite to give an extra 4 was fun, assuming you're going in the right direction.

You do get a shot of the motor!

Not quite there yet, but interesting nevertheless....!

I wonder how many orders they might have?

All credit to them IMO.

 

[dunedin]

How about 40 mph (sic - not very nautical).
This startup has some auspicious names associated with it - Arc Boats: Electric Wakeboard, Waterski, and Sport Boats

With 475hp and a massive 200kWh battery pack (more than a couple of Teslas) this is some serious beast - albeit it must be a very high voltage battery pack (think 305-800V), which might get interesting if ever gets salt water ingress.
At $300k for a 24 foot open boat, this is more in the super yacht toy category (where it will likely be charged by large diesel generators on the mothership, and the guests arrive by private helicopter, so perhaps about “green” fashion as opposed to practice)

 

[gordmac]

The boat could run about 40min at 80% power but you wouldn't use 100% of the battery capacity. Say, using thirds guide, you could go out for 10 min or so. Hardly much use!

 

[John100156]

What, like the sealed batteries on all our boats you mean, if subjected to SW? Given where they are located, it would mean the boat was also sunk, not sure ICE would fare as well submerged in sea water

Yep, but what's to come I wonder? It was not that long ago a chap walked in front of an ICE car with a red flag, I reckon some on here would have held the flag, just like trains stopping you breathing and sail better than steam, come on chaps, heads out of the sand, do not underestimate the ingenuity of man to resolve these issues....! We will have EB in the future, even if our generators use hydrogen! The sooner we get on board, the better! Only time will tell.

 

[Hurricane]

Thought this was interesting on You Tube - a new 60ft Power Cat:

I think it still mentions a 1000L tank in the spec., at the end, probably to power the Volvo generator. Not too keen on the PV arrays, but clearly we are at the inception stages of a market for larger EB's, quite exciting really.

4 knots though , thought the bit about deploying a kite to give an extra 4 was fun, assuming you're going in the right direction.

You do get a shot of the motor!

Not quite there yet, but interesting nevertheless....!

I wonder how many orders they might have?

All credit to them IMO.

You will have seen a lot of Silent Yachts.
Especially if you anchor in Santa Ponsa.
In the footage from about 0:40 to about 1:20
Going through the gap from the south at Malgrat.
BTW, if you are going through yourself at any time, be aware of the shallow rock close to that island in the gap.
One year, Silent Yachts stopped us whilst we were going ashore in the RIB in Santa Ponsa.
They were keen to sell the smaller boat that they had there at that time - even handed us some brochures.
They have also been featured in MBY - full feature - IIRC, the guys from the MBY testing team did a trip from Palma to Santa Ponsa - completely under electric power.
It seems to me that Silent Yachts don't come close to the volumes that we see with the mainstream builders (Azimut, Rodman, Beneteau, Princess, Sunseeker, Fairline etc)
Hence hull number 1 in the video.
So, I'm not sure how they would stand up against quality/longevity.

But thats not the point I'm going to make.
This thread is about the usefulness of electric boats.
Read the MBY article where the boat test team went from Palma to Santa Ponsa on a Silent Yacht catamaran.
We often do exactly the same trip in our 20m Princess.
On the south western tip of Palma Bay is Cap de Cala Fuguera.
On one such trip, we had a couple of experienced yachtie friends on board when we rounded that corner.
We were doing our usual "pootling" (less than 10 knots)
The weather wasn't that bad but the sea picked up and became a little uncomfortable.
So as not to ruin the day, I simply pushed the throttles forward and we were quickly on anchor in Santa Ponsa.
My yachtie friend looked at me and said "Motorboats - I GET IT"
Not only was it more comfortable but our Princess handles those conditions better at 25/28 knots than the Silent yacht would have done.
We would have been about 3 hours quicker.
All those aboard the Silent Yacht would have been tired and probably wet.
I know they would have used less power but why do we go boating?
For me, it isn't to get caught in rough weather.
If it was, I would probably buy a sailing yacht.

 

[lionelz]

This has been a spirited debate for sure. I believe that an alternative to the use of fossil fuels has to be found. At present for small vehicles that appears to be electric. For big engines at present that may not be the answer. Research and invention is the answer and there have been many merits to both arguments, however I do believe that some are just not willing to accept that things are changing whether we like it or not. Who would have thought in 1920 that by 1960 we would be in space and 1969 the moon. The technology may not be there yet but something will be invented because that's what humans do.


I actually thought tidal energy may be part of the answer, but some of the physics discussed have been really interesting although I admit I don't fully understand them.

 

[westernman]

Your are right that things will change. Probably during the life times of many on here.

I think for ships and for motor yachts we will see ammonia used as CO2 neutral fuel.
I think we will see engines which are not too different from the ones we use today buring ammonia as a fuel instead of diesel.

I don't think batteries are ever going to work for big ships or big yachts.

Ammonia may work well for cars as well - although with improvements in infrastructure, such as better high speed charges, more of them and batteries able to take more charge and quicker, the problem may well be solved well enough for cars for ammonia to really take off. Although it may well replaced diesel for trucks.

It is a convenient means for storing energy produced from renewables such as solar and wind energy.
It can be easily distributed. It does not required complicated handling or energy suck cryogenic or high pressure storage.
It stores a lot of energy in relatively little space.

MAN has already demonstrated clean ammonia burning two stroke engines for very large ships.
The case for two-stroke ammonia engines

Mitsubishi Power has demonstrated a 40MW turbine for electricity generation (i.e. ammonia can be used to store excess electricity from renewables and feed it back into the grid when there is not enough being generated on windless overcast days)
Mitsubishi Power | Mitsubishi Power Commences Development of World's First Ammonia-fired 40MW Class Gas Turbine System -- Targets to Expand Lineup of Carbon-free Power Generation Options, with Commercialization around 2025 --

Here is an some info about green ammonia cycle:- -
"Green" ammonia is the key to meeting the twin challenges of the 21st century. | Offerings | Siemens Energy United Kingdom

 

[Hurricane]

I don't think this is anything I would buy buy an excellent video from our own Hugo

 

[Seastoke]

I didn't know this K... Thanks for the enlightenment. If the lithium etc is renewable and isn't too energy intensive to recycle then this removes a part of the argument against...

I'm still keeping my GTS though - they don't do the Taycan in a convertible!

The range on the taycan is crap

 

[Seastoke]

With ev i thought eventually you either had a spare battery in the boot as reserve like a motor bike or the batteries were owned by someone and you would just pull into a station and swop for a fully charged one .

 

[RandallStephens]

The range on the taycan is crap

I am not sure why the automotive press continues to perpetuate the misinformation about EV range where it has become the accepted “truth” that Teslas have massive range and every other EV does not. Lucid and the new Mercedes EQS amongst others, with their massive range advantage over any Tesla are making it harder for Tesla fanatics to perpetuate those claims, in any case (Test drove a Lucid Air recently and sat in an EQS. I would not buy a Lucid anytime soon for the same reasons I don‘t own a Tesla- doesn’t feel like something with the quality to match the price, better out of ther gate than Tesla’s for sure, but not up to snuff compared to what I expect from a six figure automobile, and the EQS felt like any modern S-Class.)

EPA range in the United States self-reported by the manufacturer. Porsche are very conservative in their range estimates, Tesla always optimistic, yet the press always report the range numbers from the manufacturer. Independent testing has shown that a Tesla with a manufacturer claimed EPA range of 353 miles went 310 miles, while a Porsche Taycan with a Porsche stated range of 225 miles went 297 Miles under the same conditions, 32% better than the manufacturer reported range. 353 miles vs 225 sounds like a massive advantage for a Tesla. 310 vs 297? Not so much. I routinely go over 250 miles in my Taycan Turbo S without any anxiety, which has a lower, manufacturer reported range of barely 200 miles.

Tesla’s Supercharger network is still an advantage right now in the United States, but that edge will go away. In any case, I have never once had to charge my Taycan away from home, if I need to make a road trip, I have other, more suitable or even more fun to drive vehicles. In the EU, Tesla don’t really even have that edge with the charging network. In every other way my Taycan is far superior to a Tesla. It’s built like every other Porsche I have owned, unlike a Tesla which is built like a 1980s Korean car in terms of build quality. It handles remarkably well for a car of its weight, unlike any Tesla which has one party trick- the acceleration. My Taycan is also not a lot slower in acceleration than the fastest Model S, yet I can repeat the fast acceleration dozens of times in a row, unlike a Tesla, which needs special prep to make a fast run and cannot repeat it as often or soon. All of my friends who own or have owned top of the line Model Ss over the years roll their eyes at Tesla “quality” and got rid of them quickly when the novelty wore off.

I’ve never seen an online fan base as rabid as Tesla’s, even accounting for the people trying to keep the stock price elevated to unsustainable levels. But I don’t know why the automotive press continues with the practice of reporting EV range numbers that the manufacturers cite as reality, maybe they all own Tesla stock too?

Link to 3rd party EV site quoted above that compares the actual range they got for of different EVs vs manufacturer claims. Plenty of other independent reports re: Taycan actual range and Tesla actual range on Google if one isn’t a blind follower of Musk:

Tested: InsideEVs Reveals Real World Range Of Today's Electric Cars

As to the original topic of this thread, yes, solutions need to be found to global warming, but I agree with those who say that electric boats are not a solution that will ever work for larger (read: non-open day boat) motor yachts. As a recognition of the environmental cost of the practice, I gave up flying private in 2008, and have cut back my flying frequency tremendously in recent years- as someone who spent time on 3 continents and did business globally, there were busy years in the past where I’d fly 500k miles a year, 90% of that private. Those behavioral choices/changes on my part have made a far greater contribution to fight global warming than any reduction of diesel used by my yachting. At the end of the day, until there is an alternative fuel source that works for non-sailboats, we might have to be willing to accept a much higher penalty via taxation on diesel or some other carbon offset or use tax in order for governments to not ban such engines completely solely because it would be political suicide to have the perception that the wealthy can continue to do something the masses cannot (burn fossil fuels.)

 

[penfold]

I am working on a construction project at the moment that includes a huge amount of car parking. The desire is to put in up to 650 number EV charge points. All fine and Dandy. Because of the nature of the building these will not be used at night. I ask myself where are all the wiggleys going to come from to power that lot.

No solar array on the roof? Missed opporchancity if so.

Your are right that things will change. Probably during the life times of many on here.

I think for ships and for motor yachts we will see ammonia used as CO2 neutral fuel.
I think we will see engines which are not too different from the ones we use today buring ammonia as a fuel instead of diesel.

I don't think batteries are ever going to work for big ships or big yachts.

Ammonia may work well for cars as well - although with improvements in infrastructure, such as better high speed charges, more of them and batteries able to take more charge and quicker, the problem may well be solved well enough for cars for ammonia to really take off. Although it may well replaced diesel for trucks.

It is a convenient means for storing energy produced from renewables such as solar and wind energy.
It can be easily distributed. It does not required complicated handling or energy suck cryogenic or high pressure storage.
It stores a lot of energy in relatively little space.

MAN has already demonstrated clean ammonia burning two stroke engines for very large ships.
The case for two-stroke ammonia engines

Mitsubishi Power has demonstrated a 40MW turbine for electricity generation (i.e. ammonia can be used to store excess electricity from renewables and feed it back into the grid when there is not enough being generated on windless overcast days)
Mitsubishi Power | Mitsubishi Power Commences Development of World's First Ammonia-fired 40MW Class Gas Turbine System -- Targets to Expand Lineup of Carbon-free Power Generation Options, with Commercialization around 2025 --

Here is an some info about green ammonia cycle:- -
"Green" ammonia is the key to meeting the twin challenges of the 21st century. | Offerings | Siemens Energy United Kingdom

There were projects running ICE on ammonia back in the 70s and 80s; demonstrating it isn't the hard bit.

 

[westernman]

.... and the EQS felt like any modern S-Class.)

You make it sound as if that was a bad thing. Did you mean it that way?

 

[GravyStain]

The range on the taycan is crap

How do you arrive at that conclusion? I have plenty of anecdotal evidence to the contrary, plus as stated above, Porsche's own figures are underplayed (as are 0 - 60 times generally as well).

 

[RandallStephens]

You make it sound as if that was a bad thing. Did you mean it that way?

Sorry, no, not unless we are comparing it to W126 era build quality.

I meant “It felt as screwed together properly and solidly built as any modern S-Class, which is about as good as it gets for production vehicles, leaving aside the potential infotainment and electronic glitches/gremlins.” Not a fan of the way the EQS looks though, inside or out, although I was never in the market for one- just accompanied a mate who’s getting one when he had the chance to check one out. The only Benzes I’ve bought over the past two decades are an AMG GT coupe and a number of people movers. In the process of replacing the two diesel V-Class people movers at my European residences with EQV electric people movers, assuming the builder is correct and he has a reasonable solution for the range reduction caused by the huge electrical loads all the bespoke mods incur.

 

[Wing Mark]

.....

The scale of battery recycling is currently tiny. .....

The battery refurb and recycling industry is indeed tiny, because not many batteries have worn out yet.

Bloke I know has a high mileage Leaf.
He bought it about 3 years ago and it's paid for itself just on saving diesel, ignoring all the other costs per mile of their other car.
It still has enough range to get him to work and back, to the shops etc.
I'd guess there are a lot of cars like that, a new battery pack would be nice, but OTOH, why bother until the car stops earning its keep?

I could live with that kind of kWh battery for my boat, but then I only want it to get out of the harbour and put the sails up.

 

[BruceK]

This Interactive Chart Shows Changes in the World's Top 10 Emitters

This is a great little interactive chart showing where what and who. As for example all the transportation combined of the EU accounts for only 1.7% of total global emissions. Before you beat yourself up about the car you drive, consider the amount of emissions just knocking up another house releases in both building and energy. There are much bigger projects to tackle before you beat yourself up over EV choice.

 

[gordmac]

I would imagine sail boats are more suited to electric propulsion, they (should be!) sailing most of the time and require little power to propel them. Not sure how that squares with their existing battery "range anxiety" though!