Electric Boats

[Optima]

I would like to respond to some letters in the Dec MBY magazine.

As highlighted by Mike King-Harman there is an environmental impact from manufacturing batteries and this needs to be reduced. Within the next few years we will start to see much cleaner battery technology, which is currently in development. The other way to reduce this impact is by developing much more energy efficient hulls, which is the approach we are taking with our new range of electric boats. Our 10m boat will only carry 50% of the batteries of some more conventional alternatives, saving 800kg, significant cost and environmental impact, while still delivering a range of up to 200 miles.

The other issue is speed. Roland Watkins says he is yet to convinced that electric boats will offer the "necessary speed and range". There are now plenty of high-speed small electric boats on the market if that's what is required. But we should question the need or even desirability for high speeds. By reducing speed we can achieve a dramatic reduction in energy consumption and comfort and then enjoy the journey, but not with a planing hull. This led us to develop a very novel wave piercing hull that will cruise at twice conventional displacement speeds, up to 15kts in our 10m boat and 20kts in a 12m boat, economically with zero-emissions.

For leisure motor boating to survive we must reform and reconsider what is "necessary". If you wishDa to blast around at high speed in sheltered waters then a foiling boat such as Candela is a great option. For more sociable cruising, perhaps we need to consider reducing speed and enjoying our time on the water.

David Kendall

 

[Hurricane]

I'm sorry
I just don't agree with you.

Within the next few years we will start to see much cleaner battery technology, which is currently in development.

What technology? - the fundamentals of batteries hasn't changed since they were first invented.

If you pack a car full of lightweight batteries, you can just about get 300 miles out of it.
That isn't the case for boats.
None of the offerings of electric boats are managing the range/speed.
Which (I suspect) is why you are challenging the need for speed.

Now try filling the boat with "the creature comforts" - electric motor driven boats simply cant manage.

And it doesn't stop at propulsion.
It would be defeating the point to have a generator on board to handle (say) air condition or stabilisation.
The power requirements are just too high for batteries.

Now, change the idea into (say) hydrogen where you can store more power - that might be a different situation.

Sorry - call me a dinosaur but nothing in electric propulsion seems to me to answer the issue.

 

[Boathook]

My boat is a sailing one, well at least it has the white flappy things. If I can't sail the engine is used. I also use the engine with sails when the wind is very light. Under power I have a range of about 30 hours at just under 5 knots. When I get low on fuel I pop into a marina and buy more and then carry on. I prefer to anchor so the boat is geared up as much as possible to be self sufficient, though drinking water is the biggest problem, dinghy ashore and you can normally find a tap.
If I go electric motor I'm not sure where the batteries would go or where to put solar panels apart from on the deck where you walk. Battery weight could be a problem as the boat is a catamaran so no ballast that it could replace. Existing fuel tanks are metal with plastic portable ones stored in a locker that gets plenty of water in it.
Like Hurricane I feel hydrogen is the way ahead with quick refuelling and a good range.

 

[Elessar]

I'm sorry
I just don't agree with you.

What technology? - the fundamentals of batteries hasn't changed since they were first invented.

If you pack a car full of lightweight batteries, you can just about get 300 miles out of it.
That isn't the case for boats.
None of the offerings of electric boats are managing the range/speed.
Which (I suspect) is why you are challenging the need for speed.

Now try filling the boat with "the creature comforts" - electric motor driven boats simply cant manage.

And it doesn't stop at propulsion.
It would be defeating the point to have a generator on board to handle (say) air condition or stabilisation.
The power requirements are just too high for batteries.

Now, change the idea into (say) hydrogen where you can store more power - that might be a different situation.

Sorry - call me a dinosaur but nothing in electric propulsion seems to me to answer the issue.

Agreed. The future for large things is probably internal combustion with alternative fuel.

For someone who makes electric boats to come on here and tell us that we’re all stupid for wanting what his boat can’t do is incredibly arrogant.

And clearly he hasn’t thought of the non propulsion power requirements as you say.

A very ill considered point of view.

(I’ve done 140,000 electric car miles. I’m a convert when it’s the best solution)

 

[Seastoke]

I think it is just a cheeky way to promote is line of boats , may be he could invite some forumites to test his boat then he could prove them wrong.

 

[Elessar]

I would like to respond to some letters in the Dec MBY magazine.

As highlighted by Mike King-Harman there is an environmental impact from manufacturing batteries and this needs to be reduced. Within the next few years we will start to see much cleaner battery technology, which is currently in development. The other way to reduce this impact is by developing much more energy efficient hulls, which is the approach we are taking with our new range of electric boats. Our 10m boat will only carry 50% of the batteries of some more conventional alternatives, saving 800kg, significant cost and environmental impact, while still delivering a range of up to 200 miles.

The other issue is speed. Roland Watkins says he is yet to convinced that electric boats will offer the "necessary speed and range". There are now plenty of high-speed small electric boats on the market if that's what is required. But we should question the need or even desirability for high speeds. By reducing speed we can achieve a dramatic reduction in energy consumption and comfort and then enjoy the journey, but not with a planing hull. This led us to develop a very novel wave piercing hull that will cruise at twice conventional displacement speeds, up to 15kts in our 10m boat and 20kts in a 12m boat, economically with zero-emissions.

For leisure motor boating to survive we must reform and reconsider what is "necessary". If you wishDa to blast around at high speed in sheltered waters then a foiling boat such as Candela is a great option. For more sociable cruising, perhaps we need to consider reducing speed and enjoying our time on the water.

David Kendall

come on then David Kendall. What’s your solution to heating or aircon, stabilisation and refrigeration when you eventually get to your anchorage?

 

[John100156]

Whilst sadly I sort of agree with most of the negative comments above, we are actually developing numerous battery design and test facilities to include hydrogen fuel cell labs at ICL and NPL at the moment, and have been for some years, R&D as expected is expanding in these fields, so cleaner and significantly higher capacity compact sources of energy which may be called batteries will be around I reckon in the next 5-10 years. Much higher efficiency electric motors also being tested in Milton Keynes.

So do not rule out E-Boats just yet, its good that we see Companies taking the risk of investing early, they may well reap the benefits later.

It wasn't that long ago people believed that they would suffocate if they travelled faster than 30mph as they would not be able to breathe due to the surrounding air rushing past them, we used tungsten not LED lighting on boats....! E-Boats bring them on I reckon!

 

[Hurricane]

Whilst sadly I sort of agree with most of the negative comments above, we are actually developing numerous battery design and test facilities to include hydrogen fuel cell labs at ICL and NPL at the moment, and have been for some years, R&D as expected is expanding in these fields, so cleaner and significantly higher capacity compact sources of energy which may be called batteries will be around I reckon in the next 5-10 years.

You said something like that when we last met - if there really IS something out there that will be a genuine "Game Changer", then "I'm all ears".
But the realist/engineer in me doesn't believe it.
It would have to be a significant advance in the physics of battery design.
I'm not talking about fuel cells - it is battery/electrical storage that I'm sceptical about.

 

[John100156]

Trust me, I can't say any more. I did capture two senior scientists at NPL recently when overseeing commissioning of some special environmental chambers and I was surprised to hear of what they were developing. They were a little guarded, they know I do labs at ICL, they only share when it suits! We are piping ever increasing amounts of Hydrogen, Argon and Helium into these labs, as well as significant amounts of special gas mixes.

I said many years ago H2 might be the way forward, and IIRC there were many sceptics back then! Only time will tell of course.

 

[Elessar]

Whilst sadly I sort of agree with most of the negative comments above, we are actually developing numerous battery design and test facilities to include hydrogen fuel cell labs at ICL and NPL at the moment, and have been for some years, R&D as expected is expanding in these fields, so cleaner and significantly higher capacity compact sources of energy which may be called batteries will be around I reckon in the next 5-10 years. Much higher efficiency electric motors also being tested in Milton Keynes.

So do not rule out E-Boats just yet, its good that we see Companies taking the risk of investing early, they may well reap the benefits later.

It wasn't that long ago people believed that they would suffocate if they travelled faster than 30mph as they would not be able to breathe due to the surrounding air rushing past them, we used tungsten not LED lighting on boats....! E-Boats bring them on I reckon!

Not writing them off John.

The OP came on and said that electric boats won’t have enough power to go fast. So get used to enjoying going slow. And gave no thought whatsoever to the power needed for things other than propulsion.

If that power can be provided by electricity rather than internal combustion in the future, fine.

But that isn’t what this thread is about. It is about compromising what we do to fit our requirements to a boat that the OP makes!!

 

[penfold]

Much higher efficiency motors? Given motor efficiency is in the high 90s at the moment it's difficult for anything short of room temp superconductors to have much impact and even then it's not going to be earth shattering.

Whilst sadly I sort of agree with most of the negative comments above, we are actually developing numerous battery design and test facilities to include hydrogen fuel cell labs at ICL and NPL at the moment, and have been for some years, R&D as expected is expanding in these fields, so cleaner and significantly higher capacity compact sources of energy which may be called batteries will be around I reckon in the next 5-10 years. Much higher efficiency electric motors also being tested in Milton Keynes.

 

[John100156]

Relative term but higher efficiency motors nevertheless. Don't get me wrong, I do not disagree with most comments as I said, all I can say is having worked in designing medical research and scientific labs almost all my life, it is truly amazing what has been and will be developed in the future. Science teams are receiving significant funding in these fields and also laser technologies and I for one, am looking optimistically towards seeing E-Boats arrive on the scene, particularly given the investment needed for improving the range of E-Cars.

Mark makes a fair point about the auxiliaries, but until reverse cycle heat pumps (HP) arrived we thought 1kWe produced 1kWth at almost 100% efficiency, with a resistive heater, then we developed HP units with a CoP of 3:1 producing from 1kWe 3kWth and nowadays higher CoP's. 10W lamps now replaced with 1W LED's, more efficient PV panels on the way, etc., etc,. We will get there I reckon.

We don't use braking force like F1 cars to regen on our boats but how about a pipe from bow to stern (Some latest E-Bikes have this to reduce drag) that we open when decelerating to regen-E just playing games here of course, we have to do something soon to stop burning diesel I reckon!

 

[Hurricane]

Mark makes a fair point about the auxiliaries, but until reverse cycle heat pumps (HP) arrived we thought 1kWe produced 1kWth at almost 100% efficiency, with a resistive heater, then we developed HP units with a CoP of 3:1 producing from 1kWe 3kWth and nowadays higher CoP's. 10W lamps now replaced with 1W LED's, more efficient PV panels on the way, etc., etc,. We will get there I reckon.

I always cite COPs of 6:1 which is what I think I got close to in swimming pool heating.
But even a COP of 6:1 doesn't get anywhere near to resolving running an A/C off batteries.

 

[Hurricane]

Not writing them off John.

The OP came on and said that electric boats won’t have enough power to go fast. So get used to enjoying going slow. And gave no thought whatsoever to the power needed for things other than propulsion.

If that power can be provided by electricity rather than internal combustion in the future, fine.

But that isn’t what this thread is about. It is about compromising what we do to fit our requirements to a boat that the OP makes!!

Yep - when I read that, I thought - maybe we should all switch to being yachties and have unlimited range.
But then I thought - yachties probably go faster than the OP was suggesting!!

No, the big advantage of motor boats is that you can go slow and significantly increase the range.
But, just ask my SWMBO, when the weather picks up without any warning, we burn the fuel and get somewhere safe - quickly.
If your battery/electric motor chain can't do that, you could be compromising safety.
Remember, yachties are built for heavier weather - we have flat bottoms to make the hull more efficient - bad weather can be hell at slow speeds.

 

[John100156]

I always cite COPs of 6:1 which is what I think I got close to in swimming pool heating.
But even a COP of 6:1 doesn't get anywhere near to resolving running an A/C off batteries.

Mitsubishi invited 30 Consultants to a meeting at Hatfield many years ago when they very first launched their R2 Systems to Mitsy-UK, I was lucky enough to be one of them (they were scraping the barrel), they said then they were testing systems with CoPs approaching 15:1 in Japan, nothing has hit the UK market as far as I know, but with major developments and incentives in HP's for domestic heating, who knows what may be coming down the line.

Come on Mile you were once an innovator have you lost your Mojo?

 

[Elessar]

Mitsubishi invited 30 Consultants to a meeting at Hatfield many years ago when they very first launched their R2 Systems to Mitsy-UK, I was lucky enough to be one of them (they were scraping the barrel), they said then they were testing systems with CoPs approaching 15:1 in Japan, nothing has hit the UK market as far as I know, but with major developments and incentives in HP's for domestic heating, who knows what may be coming down the line.

Come on Mile you were once an innovator have you lost your Mojo?

Stiil missing the point John. The OP said we should compromise what we do to fit with the technology he has.

You are saying new technology MAY (or probably will) allow us to carry on with a different power source. This is fine but a completely different point.

 

[John100156]

OK Is it this bit you are alluding to? ".......For leisure motor boating to survive we must reform and reconsider what is "necessary". If you wish to blast around at high speed in sheltered waters then a foiling boat such as Candela is a great option. For more sociable cruising, perhaps we need to consider reducing speed and enjoying our time on the water......"

If so, I do disagree with that statement, we need new technology developed to enhance and enable us to do precisely what we want, and not be constrained by what's on the market today.

 

[jrudge]

If I posted this about my business the moderators would pull it.

This is a forum not an advertising platform !

Electric boats do not currently stack up.

 

[Elessar]

If I posted this about my business the moderators would pull it.

This is a forum not an advertising platform !

Electric boats do not currently stack up.

Agreed.
They possibly stack as a small tender or very small riverboat. But no more than that.

 

[Elessar]

OK Is it this bit you are alluding to? ".......For leisure motor boating to survive we must reform and reconsider what is "necessary". If you wish to blast around at high speed in sheltered waters then a foiling boat such as Candela is a great option. For more sociable cruising, perhaps we need to consider reducing speed and enjoying our time on the water......"

If so, I do disagree with that statement, we need new technology developed to enhance and enable us to do precisely what we want, and not be constrained by what's on the market today.

Exactly. What he said was nonsense. And he didn’t consider aircon or stabs. Even your efficient aircon doesn’t stack. It might one day. But it doesn’t now.