Electric Boats

[Momac]

Fundamentally I do not believe that we can expect to be allowed, either by legislation or our own consciousness, to continue with pastimes or hobbies that are contributing to the decline and eventual death of our planet.

(i)Since there are no new boats available that do not create any emissions during their manufacture does that philosophy rule out legal production and personal ownership of new leisure motorboats ?

(ii)Would it not be acceptable, in this future world that you predict , to own and run a motorboat if the liquid fuel used is equally carbon neutral on a basis comparable with electricity?

 

[Bigplumbs]

Fundamentally I do not believe that we can expect to be allowed, either by legislation or our own consciousness, to continue with pastimes or hobbies that are contributing to the decline and eventual death of our planet.

Fundamentally I am certain that you have absolutely no grip on reality and are just out to try and make money by jumping on yet another band wagon

 

[gordmac]

Out of interest, UK boaters with boats in the med, is the pollution from trips to and from the boat more than the pollution using it?
I suspect banning private aircraft is a lower hanging fruit than banning boats, commercial boats will be using diesel for a long time yet so marine diesel will be available.

 

[henryf]

Hydrogen is likely to be very important in the future but requires much greater change and investment in infrastructure, so the change to hydrogen will take longer.

Whoa, hold on there Jimmy Neutron.

Providing 150kw charging points isn’t quite as easy as tapping into your downstairs ring main. When Porsche Reading installed a couple of chargers they had to re-wire half the town. Last time I was there the Tesla fast chargers at Fleet were STILL sitting redundant because the massive cable to power them was still just outside Sellafield.

Delivery of Hydrogen isn’t fundamentally different to liquid fuels currently used so the same delivery points can be used and refuelling times are essentially the same. The core infrastructure is already there, they just need to change the nozzles - it’s a bit more than that but you get my point.

Whilst electric vehicles are being rolled out we also hope to replace natural gas with electricity for heating homes. That’s a lot of energy to add to the already strained supply and distribution infrastructure. Throw in heavy goods traffic and my calculator runs out of zeros.

 

[Hurricane]

Whoa, hold on there Jimmy Neutron.

Providing 150kw charging points isn’t quite as easy as tapping into your downstairs ring main. When Porsche Reading installed a couple of chargers they had to re-wire half the town. Last time I was there the Tesla fadt chargers at Fleet were STILL sitting redundant because the massive cable to power them was still just outside Sellafield.

Delivery of Hydrogen isn’t fundamentally different to liquid fuels currently used so the same delivery points can be used and refuelling times are essentially the same. The core infrastructure is already there, they just need to change the nozzles - it’s a bit more than that but you get my point.

Whilst electric vehicles are being rolled out we also hope to replace natural gas with electricity for heating homes. That’s a lot of energy to add to the already strained supply and distribution infrastructure. Throw in heavy goods traffic and my calculator runs out of zeros.

Agree 100%
Politicians don't understand that though and seem to think that the engineers out there are magicians.
Consequently, the 2030 date will slip - IMHO of course.

 

[Bigplumbs]

Whoa, hold on there Jimmy Neutron.

Providing 150kw charging points isn’t quite as easy as tapping into your downstairs ring main. When Porsche Reading installed a couple of chargers they had to re-wire half the town. Last time I was there the Tesla fadt chargers at Fleet were STILL sitting redundant because the massive cable to power them was still just outside Sellafield.

Delivery of Hydrogen isn’t fundamentally different to liquid fuels currently used so the same delivery points can be used and refuelling times are essentially the same. The core infrastructure is already there, they just need to change the nozzles - it’s a bit more than that but you get my point.

Whilst electric vehicles are being rolled out we also hope to replace natural gas with electricity for heating homes. That’s a lot of energy to add to the already strained supply and distribution infrastructure. Throw in heavy goods traffic and my calculator runs out of zeros.

Thats why large scale roll out of Electric Vehicles is in reality doomed to failure.

 

[Bigplumbs]

The Practicalities of many homes having a charge points near to where they park their car is also a massive issue....... Not been well thought through at all. That's if you don't even factor in young people unplugging stuff for a fun

I was involved for a short time in large scale CCTV in some UK cities and the little blighters found that the vent holes in the back of Telephone distribution Kiosks made a lovely way in to squirt petrol and drop in the match.
Sorting that little lot out afterwards was not fun I can assure you. Children will be Children Kids however are of course Baby Goats

 

[Hurricane]

Just for information this is the charging times for a Tesla Model 3 (from Google)
I think this underlines Henry's comments about the infrastructure.
Most domestic supplies are 60amp (14Kw) which has to handle all the devices in the house as well as charging a car.
Heat your hot water with an immersion heater and boil a kettle and you could be getting close to overloading the supply.

Method	kW	Charging time (empty to full)
Standard three-pin plug	2.3	37.75 hours
Dedicated home charging point	7.4	11.75 hours
Fast charger	22*	8 hours* (vehicle limited to 11kW)
Rapid charger	Up to 250	22 minutes

 

[flaming]

Thats why large scale roll out of Electric Vehicles is in reality doomed to failure.

No, because for the vast majority of people, visiting a charger will be an incredibly rare event. Most people do not drive long distances, remember that the average car does about 7k miles a year. The average journey is something like 10 miles. For the vast, vast majority of the time you do all your EV miles on the power you pull in the middle of the night.
I am a reasonably high mileage driver. I have now owned my EV for 7 months and driven about 8k miles (So roughly double the UK average), during which time I have had to visit a charger 3 times.

 

[flaming]

Just for information this is the charging times for a Tesla Model 3 (from Google)
I think this underlines Henry's comments about the infrastructure.
Most domestic supplies are 60amp (14Kw) which has to handle all the devices in the house as well as charging a car.
Heat your hot water with an immersion heater and boil a kettle and you could be getting close to overloading the supply.

Method	kW	Charging time (empty to full)
Standard three-pin plug	2.3	37.75 hours
Dedicated home charging point	7.4	11.75 hours
Fast charger	22*	8 hours* (vehicle limited to 11kW)
Rapid charger	Up to 250	22 minutes

How often are you running an immersion or a boiling a kettle between 1am and 4 am (the time my car drew its power last night)?

And btw, these times are almost irrelevant. The occasions that you charge an EV from 0 to 100 are so rare to be completely discounted. It's a different way of thinking about your vehicle, instead of letting it get down to nearly empty before charging it, you just plug it in most nights (which takes about 10s) and it tops itself up in the early hours. Last night it went fro 49% to 82% in about 3.5 hours and cost me £1.24 on my overnight rate. Just over 1p per mile.....

 

[henryf]

Can I just say I’m not anti change or evolution but I DO think the current EV movement is just kicking the can down the road and fundamentally the wrong approach. A battery full of horrible chemicals that has a very limited life span doesn’t make sense and potentially causes more harm than it cures.

We do a lot more than 7k miles per year. With respect I would say someone doing 6k miles per year in a modern I/C engine is causing so little harm to the planet trying to replace it with a big battery car will do more harm. It’s the 20k plus miles per year motorists and heavy goods vehicles that are putting out the bulk of the emissions. So if battery powered vehicles only mop up the emissions which from vehicles which aren’t actually a problem then there’s no point.

Something like hydrogen however can do big trucks, heavy plant, high mileage and yes, even boats.

 

[flaming]

Can I just say I’m not anti change or evolution but I DO think the current EV movement is just kicking the can down the road and fundamentally the wrong approach. A battery full of horrible chemicals that has a very limited life span doesn’t make sense and potentially causes more harm than it cures.

We do a lot more than 7k miles per year. With respect I would say someone doing 6k miles per year in a modern I/C engine is causing so little harm to the planet trying to replace it with a big battery car will do more harm. It’s the 20k plus miles per year motorists and heavy goods vehicles that are putting out the bulk of the emissions. So if battery powered vehicles only mop up the emissions which from vehicles which aren’t actually a problem then there’s no point.

Something like hydrogen however can do big trucks, heavy plant, high mileage and yes, even boats.

There certainly is an argument that allowing the current ICE cars to reach the end of their life before replacing them is best. Granted.

One interesting factoid I came across recently though, is that in the UK, owners of Teslas do, on average, more miles int he 1st 3 years of ownership than owners of any other car brand. So these cars are actually being driven more than the comparative ICE cars.
https://electrek.co/2020/04/28/tesl...-more-miles-per-year-than-in-any-other-brand/

So not really just mopping up the low mileage stuff. Which, btw, could probably be coped with by much smaller batteries. Thousands of people are already out there doing large mileages in electric cars, but still people try and claim that it isn't happening, or isn't possible, it is odd....

The issue of battery tech, and the nasty stuff that goes into it is also interesting. There is a lot of development there. For example...
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/20/tesla-switching-to-lfp-batteries-in-all-standard-range-cars.html

What I think you have to remember is quite how early we are in the process of using large batteries to power stuff, and quite how short a time that it has been that significant amounts of R&D spend has been channeled this way. Anyone trying to predict what battery tech is going to be like in 2030 is probably going to be wrong.

 

[westernman]

There certainly is an argument that allowing the current ICE cars to reach the end of their life before replacing them is best. Granted.

One interesting factoid I came across recently though, is that in the UK, owners of Teslas do, on average, more miles int he 1st 3 years of ownership than owners of any other car brand. So these cars are actually being driven more than the comparative ICE cars.
Tesla owners in the UK drive more miles per year than in any other brand

So not really just mopping up the low mileage stuff. Which, btw, could probably be coped with by much smaller batteries. Thousands of people are already out there doing large mileages in electric cars, but still people try and claim that it isn't happening, or isn't possible, it is odd....

The issue of battery tech, and the nasty stuff that goes into it is also interesting. There is a lot of development there. For example...
Tesla will change the type of battery cells it uses in all its standard-range cars

What I think you have to remember is quite how early we are in the process of using large batteries to power stuff, and quite how short a time that it has been that significant amounts of R&D spend has been channeled this way. Anyone trying to predict what battery tech is going to be like in 2030 is probably going to be wrong.

Electric cars have been around since the 1830s.

 

[henryf]

There certainly is an argument that allowing the current ICE cars to reach the end of their life before replacing them is best. Granted.

One interesting factoid I came across recently though, is that in the UK, owners of Teslas do, on average, more miles int he 1st 3 years of ownership than owners of any other car brand. So these cars are actually being driven more than the comparative ICE cars.
Tesla owners in the UK drive more miles per year than in any other brand

So not really just mopping up the low mileage stuff. Which, btw, could probably be coped with by much smaller batteries. Thousands of people are already out there doing large mileages in electric cars, but still people try and claim that it isn't happening, or isn't possible, it is odd....

The issue of battery tech, and the nasty stuff that goes into it is also interesting. There is a lot of development there. For example...
Tesla will change the type of battery cells it uses in all its standard-range cars

What I think you have to remember is quite how early we are in the process of using large batteries to power stuff, and quite how short a time that it has been that significant amounts of R&D spend has been channeled this way. Anyone trying to predict what battery tech is going to be like in 2030 is probably going to be wrong.

You keep talking about average use. I still maintain the average private car driver isn’t the problem, it’s heavy plant / trucks and the highest 25% of car drivers.

it’s like the tax revenue. The top 1% of earners pay around a third of all tax received. The top 10% are responsible for more than 70% so scrabbling around trying to deal with average drivers is an expensive way to not achieve very much.

It’s like people kidding themselves by buying hybrid cars. Massive heavy batteries with all their associated build and end of life damage, 10 or 15 miles worth of electrical power, effectively 2 cars to service, a very short service life because they are too expensive to run and repair as older cars so massively high build footprint but they do make you feel smug and justified as you park up in Terminal 3 en route to Caribbean at Christmas.……

 

[Bigplumbs]

I am working on a construction project at the moment that includes a huge amount of car parking. The desire is to put in up to 650 number EV charge points. All fine and Dandy. Because of the nature of the building these will not be used at night. I ask myself where are all the wiggleys going to come from to power that lot.

 

[Bigplumbs]

Just for information this is the charging times for a Tesla Model 3 (from Google)
I think this underlines Henry's comments about the infrastructure.
Most domestic supplies are 60amp (14Kw) which has to handle all the devices in the house as well as charging a car.
Heat your hot water with an immersion heater and boil a kettle and you could be getting close to overloading the supply.

Method	kW	Charging time (empty to full)
Standard three-pin plug	2.3	37.75 hours
Dedicated home charging point	7.4	11.75 hours
Fast charger	22*	8 hours* (vehicle limited to 11kW)
Rapid charger	Up to 250	22 minutes

That says it all for me. For the mass market absolute folly. As for the Rapid Charger that will kill your batteries PDQ

 

[flaming]

You keep talking about average use. I still maintain the average private car driver isn’t the problem, it’s heavy plant / trucks and the highest 25% of car drivers.

But as I've just shown you, the highest mileage is being done by EV drivers... So it's no use claiming that they are no good for that use, and can only be used for little journeys, when there are loads of people out there doing big mileages in EVs.... The top 25% of car users could go electric now with minimal issues. No question.
It really is an odd thing about EVs that so many people say that they don't work for x or y, when there are people out there doing x and y in them.

Trucks are a different matter, and there are a lot of things in the works. What the end solution might be I don't know.

 

[Hurricane]

That says it all for me. For the mass market absolute folly. As for the Rapid Charger that will kill your batteries PDQ

Although I agree with you, I understand that IS the point about Lithiums - in that they can take huge currents and charge quickly.

 

[Hurricane]

You keep talking about average use. I still maintain the average private car driver isn’t the problem, it’s heavy plant / trucks and the highest 25% of car drivers.

it’s like the tax revenue. The top 1% of earners pay around a third of all tax received. The top 10% are responsible for more than 70% so scrabbling around trying to deal with average drivers is an expensive way to not achieve very much.

It’s like people kidding themselves by buying hybrid cars. Massive heavy batteries with all their associated build and end of life damage, 10 or 15 miles worth of electrical power, effectively 2 cars to service, a very short service life because they are too expensive to run and repair as older cars so massively high build footprint but they do make you feel smug and justified as you park up in Terminal 3 en route to Caribbean at Christmas.……

OK - so how about MILD Hybrid cars.
I understand that they use a conventional lead acid battery thus not having an expensive battery replacement (or two) during the life of the car.

 

[flaming]

As for the Rapid Charger that will kill your batteries PDQ

Fake news.
Is DC Fast Charging Bad For Your Electric Car? | MYEV.com

Barely any difference in a long term test of the 2 extremes - i.e only slow charging and only rapid charging.