Dyneema guard 'wires'

[geem]

I don't consider guardwires a security thing. If that's all that's between me and the water I've already made way too many mistakes. I actually consider yachts without them to be safer as people take more care.

It may depend on the boat. We do all the reefing at the mast. It's how we like it and we wouldn't change it. If it's rough, we go forward with harness attached to the jackstays. We can hang on to the handle on the hardtop but the high guard wires are a natural handhold. They are strong and convenient on our wide side decks.
If find its extraordinary that you think a boat without them is safer. I guess you still have your unsafe guard wires?
If yours were properly secured to the substantial toerail by bolts, with solid 1" aluminium alloy stanchions not flimsy stainless steel tube, would you still feel the same?

 

[lustyd]

Yes I would. I agree it’s nice to have a handhold but falling against a guardwire is not on my list of things to do. We go forward too, but using the high side of the boat and clipped on where appropriate it’s almost impossible to hit a guardwire by falling. Given that i fit somewhat easily through both the upper and lower gaps in our guardwires my aim would have to be quite impressive too.

 

[geem]

Yes I would. I agree it’s nice to have a handhold but falling against a guardwire is not on my list of things to do. We go forward too, but using the high side of the boat and clipped on where appropriate it’s almost impossible to hit a guardwire by falling. Given that i fit somewhat easily through both the upper and lower gaps in our guardwires my aim would have to be quite impressive too.

I am confused. How do you fall against a guardwire going along the high side? The fall would be down the slope of the deck towards the boat. Your harness would restrain you before you got to the other side.
I have never suggested we go down the low side. That would be foolish. The guardwires stop you falling when going forward just in the same way as a handhold on a stairs provides assistance if you want it. It's a similar solid handhold if designed and installed appropriately on a boat. If you tripped, you could probably fall through a few bannisters in a house or two but you wouldnt remove them because of it.
If you had to go from the mast to the forestay in rough weather to sort out a problem with a furler, what would you hang on to? Substantial guardwire or guardrails are worth there wait in gold as a primary safety device. It is why they are required in racing regulations

 

[fredrussell]

... I actually consider yachts without them to be safer as people take more care.

Have you removed yours then?

 

[Trident]

There was a serious (maybe semi serious) report on motorcycle accidents where one of the magazines concluded helmets and leathers were worse for safety than riding naked as the fear inspired by wind around ones nethers and the unforgiving tarmac inches away made for very safe and slow riding.

Like all things there is no right answer but dyneema is safe, convenient and to my mind better than wire. Other prefer wire, great, fit that.

Safety at sea is a wide ranging subject and one may or may not be able to argue convincingly that in the first instance wire lines are better that dyneema or vice versa. I find both strong enough to stop me were I to need them and neither likely to fail (I have anti chaff covers at the stanchions and I polished the holes to remove the chance of sharp edges), I have had no issues in 7 years with finders or lines rubbing the dyneema.

Down the safety chain, when all hell breaks loose and a boat is dismasted or entangled in another boat etc , I can categorically say I'd rather have dyneema that my knife will slice away in seconds to free the obstruction rather than have to find cutters or a grinder to get free in what may take minutes in a high stress situation .

 

[thinwater]

I've always thought of lifelines as an extension of the toe rail (something to stop a slide) rather than as a fence. Looked at that way, the normal height is sufficient and FAR better than nothing. The idea that they could trip you is silly; if your balance is such that they are tipping you, you have already fallen. Similarly, a toe rail can't trip you. And no one said you had to walk tall on the deck when scooting was the safer method.

I never push down on lifelines. It doesn't work. I will pull up on them on the high side; this can help keep your feet on the deck.

But if you look at MOBS, they are nearly always when a person is working on something and not paying attention to their balance surroundings. It's not when they are just moving about the deck.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

I can promise you it was 'proper' dyneema, bought from a supplier with whom I've done regular business over the years.
I also very recently bought 68 metres of 6mm for £70 for my new boat, it's out there if you're not in a desperate hurry to buy. (I confess I've never heard of 'lazyjack line')

FYI lazyjack line is a hollow braid polyester rope just like naked SK78, and spliced in the same way. Cheap, strong enough for lazyjacks, and stretchy like other non HMPE rope. Our lazyjacks ate made of it. Good stuff for it’s design purpose. You’d soon notice if you tried to use it as a halyard

 

[geem]

There was a serious (maybe semi serious) report on motorcycle accidents where one of the magazines concluded helmets and leathers were worse for safety than riding naked as the fear inspired by wind around ones nethers and the unforgiving tarmac inches away made for very safe and slow riding.

Like all things there is no right answer but dyneema is safe, convenient and to my mind better than wire. Other prefer wire, great, fit that.

Safety at sea is a wide ranging subject and one may or may not be able to argue convincingly that in the first instance wire lines are better that dyneema or vice versa. I find both strong enough to stop me were I to need them and neither likely to fail (I have anti chaff covers at the stanchions and I polished the holes to remove the chance of sharp edges), I have had no issues in 7 years with finders or lines rubbing the dyneema.

Down the safety chain, when all hell breaks loose and a boat is dismasted or entangled in another boat etc , I can categorically say I'd rather have dyneema that my knife will slice away in seconds to free the obstruction rather than have to find cutters or a grinder to get free in what may take minutes in a high stress situation .

Mine have dyneema lashings at the rear end that allow the the guadwire to be cut.
I think if the mast comes down, you will have far more to worry about than guardwires. You would likely have cutters or a grinder out anyway dealing with standing rigging strewn across the deck

 

[Sea Change]

I've always thought of lifelines as an extension of the toe rail (something to stop a slide) rather than as a fence. Looked at that way, the normal height is sufficient and FAR better than nothing. The idea that they could trip you is silly; if your balance is such that they are tipping you, you have already fallen. Similarly, a toe rail can't trip you. And no one said you had to walk tall on the deck when scooting was the safer method.

I never push down on lifelines. It doesn't work. I will pull up on them on the high side; this can help keep your feet on the deck.

But if you look at MOBS, they are nearly always when a person is working on something and not paying attention to their balance surroundings. It's not when they are just moving about the deck.

My previous but one boat had no stanchions, guardwires, pulpit or pushpit. I convinced myself that it was fine like that and sailed for a couple of years without them.
I saw a complete set come up secondhand and decided to go for it. And once I'd fitted it all, I felt so much more secure. It's not so much trusting the 'fence' to stop you from going over the side, it's knowing that there's something there that you can keep a hand on while going forwards. In retrospect the boat felt naked without them.

 

[WindyWindyWindy]

It looks identical to dyneema but is just polyester. Much cheaper but far less strong as its designed to hold up a sail bag. It’s the reason I wouldn’t get dyneema from untrusted sources. Good that you knew what you were getting.

Liros Lazy Jack Rope 6mm Silver | Force 4 Chandlery

Looks similar in that it's hollowbraid. I used it for my lazy jacks and it's really easy to splice.
The thing it has over dynema is better UV resistance, although modern dynema claims to have that sorted.

I've used a 2 foot length of dynema as a lashing for the paddle board for about a year and it's in much worse shape than the polyester at the other end. I do wonder if dynema copes sufficiently well with chafe for a guard rail.

 

[thinwater]

Looks similar in that it's hollowbraid. I used it for my lazy jacks and it's really easy to splice.
The thing it has over dynema is better UV resistance, although modern dynema claims to have that sorted.

I've used a 2 foot length of dynema as a lashing for the paddle board for about a year and it's in much worse shape than the polyester at the other end. I do wonder if dynema copes sufficiently well with chafe for a guard rail.

The disadvantage of Dyneema is near zero stretch. It distorts the set of the sail. Polyester has just enough stretch that it does not interfere with the set of the sail. Yes, you can retract the lazyjacks, but many (most?) of us would rather not have to bother.

Either works.

 

[Refueler]

Thread drift for one moment >

For those that believe a splice can maintain 100% of a ropes original strength - I wish you fair winds and care.

I for one - a person who has been splicing ropes for many years - wire and rope .... and as a Certificated Senior Deck Officer that's been responsible for such on ships ... the accepted max retention of the BEST splices was regarded as 90 - 95% .....

I am aware that online claims of 100% are made ... I would suggest to those that believe that - to understand whether that is a factory machine made splice and set properly or a human hand one on the deck of a yacht !

back to Dyneema and guard lines ... the stainless guard wire I have that has stranded - that is at the midships stanchion ... at first I thought it was chafe at the stanchion - but its actuall a cm or so away from the stanchion. Hard to understand why its happened.
Sometime this winter - I shall remove ... give to chandlers and have a new one made up ... I did consider whether to do myself ... but really the cost savings are minimal and I'd rather use the time elsewhere ...

 

[Refueler]

I've always thought of lifelines as an extension of the toe rail (something to stop a slide) rather than as a fence. Looked at that way, the normal height is sufficient and FAR better than nothing. The idea that they could trip you is silly; if your balance is such that they are tipping you, you have already fallen. Similarly, a toe rail can't trip you. And no one said you had to walk tall on the deck when scooting was the safer method.

I never push down on lifelines. It doesn't work. I will pull up on them on the high side; this can help keep your feet on the deck.

But if you look at MOBS, they are nearly always when a person is working on something and not paying attention to their balance surroundings. It's not when they are just moving about the deck.

Sorry but t(r)ipping over a Guard wire is actually easy ... due to the inadequate height of them ... I know this for my own experience .. and my back was in pain for weeks after.

Getting around a non guard wire deck was easier on my Alacrity 19 ... because you would use the side shroud / stays to walk round instead of bumming it inside of guard wires. My ex Wife insisited on my fitting them ... it really did make it more awkward.
Bigger boats of course you have more side deck between guard wire and cabin top etc - but still the wires are at a height that really is a joke. If you put at height to really be safe - then a) the force the stanchion would exert on its mount if you fell against would be huge ... b) imagine sheets and gear 'working' with them !!

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Of course we don’t have guard rails. A pulpit and pushpit, yes. The latter gives you something to lean on while steering. Our safety lines go tight before you fall off the sides. But that's quite hard to do anyway, you never have to go out there. I’ve sailed on quite a few other boats that don’t have them, classic 8Ms for instance. I don’t miss them.

 

[geem]

Sorry but t(r)ipping over a Guard wire is actually easy ... due to the inadequate height of them ... I know this for my own experience .. and my back was in pain for weeks after.

Getting around a non guard wire deck was easier on my Alacrity 19 ... because you would use the side shroud / stays to walk round instead of bumming it inside of guard wires. My ex Wife insisited on my fitting them ... it really did make it more awkward.
Bigger boats of course you have more side deck between guard wire and cabin top etc - but still the wires are at a height that really is a joke. If you put at height to really be safe - then a) the force the stanchion would exert on its mount if you fell against would be huge ... b) imagine sheets and gear 'working' with them !!

I agree that low guardwires on small boat dont really help that much.
On larger boats they do make sense. Not all wires are at a low hieght. Mine are high guardrails by the cockpit and guardwires forward of the cockpit. Some of the larger Amel have guardrails around the whole boat. When you get down to small pocket cruisers, it's a different issue and bears no resemblance to a boat like ours.
I routinely climb out of the dinghy onto the foredeck using the guardwires. They are super strong and easily take the load of me hauling myself up on them. Strong by design

 

[Refueler]

I agree that low guardwires on small boat dont really help that much.
On larger boats they do make sense. Not all wires are at a low hieght. Mine are high guardrails by the cockpit and guardwires forward of the cockpit. Some of the larger Amel have guardrails around the whole boat. When you get down to small pocket cruisers, it's a different issue and bears no resemblance to a boat like ours.
I routinely climb out of the dinghy onto the foredeck using the guardwires. They are super strong and easily take the load of me hauling myself up on them. Strong by design

I would dare to suggest that yours are not the usual half-hearted style !

I have seen people coming alongside and people on dock pushing boat by the stanchion / wire .. and the mountings then loose .. not as uncommon as some may think.

 

[geem]

I would dare to suggest that yours are not the usual half-hearted style !

I have seen people coming alongside and people on dock pushing boat by the stanchion / wire .. and the mountings then loose .. not as uncommon as some may think.

I was just walking through the marina and looking at the modern production boat method of doing stanchions. It varies on how they do them but none are strong. Even a prestigious Contest 40 has lightweight stanchion bases bolted through the deck with stainless steel tube stanchions. The only boats with similar robust stanchions are a custom steel and a custom aluminium boat.
The other thing that is notable, is the lack of stanchions. A 40 cat next to me has 4 stanchions. The pullpit and pushpit, like the modern production monohulls, use 25mm stainless tube. The pullpits have 4 fixings where we have 6. Our pushpit has 7 fixings. Our pullpit and pushpit are 28mm s/s we have 7 stanchions. The steel 42ft boat next to us has 10 stanchions of over sized s/s tubing. I think modern builders just cut corners to save money since most boats don't go out in bad weather. It does become an issue if you take one of these boat ocean sailing and are doing spinnaker work on deck or fitting a pole or hanking on a storm sail.
I can see why Lustyd assumes they have no function as a safety aid. It's appalling that some manufacturers fit something so useless

 

[fredrussell]

…I can see why Lustyd assumes they have no function as a safety aid. It's appalling that some manufacturers fit something so useless

You’re forgetting one of the important safety factors of guard wires and that is that as you fall overboard (god forbid) there is a wire/line held at a good height (by stanchions, however weak) to grab and cling on to. If you fall from a moving boat such as Lustyd’s that has no guard wires at all you’re in the drink and trying to grab a slippery boat which is obviously very difficult to do.

 

[Refueler]

I was just walking through the marina and looking at the modern production boat method of doing stanchions. It varies on how they do them but none are strong. Even a prestigious Contest 40 has lightweight stanchion bases bolted through the deck with stainless steel tube stanchions. The only boats with similar robust stanchions are a custom steel and a custom aluminium boat.
The other thing that is notable, is the lack of stanchions. A 40 cat next to me has 4 stanchions. The pullpit and pushpit, like the modern production monohulls, use 25mm stainless tube. The pullpits have 4 fixings where we have 6. Our pushpit has 7 fixings. Our pullpit and pushpit are 28mm s/s we have 7 stanchions. The steel 42ft boat next to us has 10 stanchions of over sized s/s tubing. I think modern builders just cut corners to save money since most boats don't go out in bad weather. It does become an issue if you take one of these boat ocean sailing and are doing spinnaker work on deck or fitting a pole or hanking on a storm sail.
I can see why Lustyd assumes they have no function as a safety aid. It's appalling that some manufacturers fit something so useless

You can now understand my posts of not trusting such gear !!

 

[thinwater]

Sorry but t(r)ipping over a Guard wire is actually easy ... due to the inadequate height of them ... I know this for my own experience .. and my back was in pain for weeks after.

Getting around a non guard wire deck was easier on my Alacrity 19 ... because you would use the side shroud / stays to walk round instead of bumming it inside of guard wires. My ex Wife insisited on my fitting them ... it really did make it more awkward.
Bigger boats of course you have more side deck between guard wire and cabin top etc - but still the wires are at a height that really is a joke. If you put at height to really be safe - then a) the force the stanchion would exert on its mount if you fell against would be huge ... b) imagine sheets and gear 'working' with them !!

What I meant is that you can't trip over something unless you balalnce is already over it. Consider the math. For example, if you trip on the leeward wire, you were already falling. The windward wire when strongly heeled, on the other hand, is possible, but people nearly all fall to leeward.

You don't fall against them from standing. You get low. They are only really to prevent sliding, like a toe rail. Kind of obvious to me.