Drying out flat

[Colin24]

Dear forumites

I’m still looking for my first small cheap boat that will be based on the river Orwell on a drying mooring. I have narrowed my search to only include boats with lifting keels.
My reasoning is that with a lifting keel I’ll be able to explore the creeks and estuaries of the east coast and be less fearful of getting stuck then I would be with a bilge keel.
Also with the keel down I should have better windward ability then a bilge keeler.

What I need to know is: In order to dry out flat and upright does my lifting keel necessarily need to be of the sort that retracts fully or can one get away with something like a Jaguar 22 that has a swing keel that leaves quite a lump of ballast protruding on the bottom of the hull even in the fully retracted position.

Can I pretty much ignore a lump such as on the jaguar and assume it will disappear into the mud leaving the boat upright? Of course I realize that it would present a problem on a very hard bottom but I guess that drying on a hard bottom is something to be avoided anyway.

All of the above is based on my assumptions and not sound experience, please point it out if I’m barking up the wrong tree.

If I can include swing keel boats (even though they don’t retract completely) as well as lifting keelers it will broaden my choice of boat considerably.

Many thanks,

Colin


<hr width=100% size=1>No boat.

 

[chriscallender]

If the bottom is mud then yes it will dry out upright - I have a lifting keel Seal 28 which has a fixed long keel of about 12-18 inches that the lifting keel drops through the centre of and I have dried out on mud berths for a tide - and the mooring that I had her on for the last two years dried or nearly dried on spring tides. In fact there are plenty of places where the mud layer is thick enough that even fin keel boats successfully dry out level, with the keel projecting 5 feet into mud.

But ... on a lifting keel boat (noreal experience of swing keel), mud will be forced up into the keel box which could give you some problems. Keel can jam with mud and stones and one tip is to leave it an inch or two from the fully up position when the boat dries, so that if it won't drop again, you can pull it up the last inch and then let it drop down again and bash the mud out the way. I was talking to the guys in the boatyard when they were scrubbing mine after it was lifted, and they said that one of the worst jobs they ever get is to scrub a lifting keeler thats sits in mud because of how hard it is to get all the crap out of the keelbox. I've also had water inlets block with mud (OK that could happen on any boat that sits in mud) fortunately only for the heads but you need to check that the engine intake isn't blocked if you have an inboard.

So yes, it will work but there are also some benefits (simplicity!) to bilge keelers (assuming the keel bolts and keel attachment are OK after years of drying out, I believe some suffer from weakness in that area).

Chris

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[oldharry]

Re: A drop keel is not a sounding device!

Think a bit carefully about this one. Bilge keelers are actually designed for drying moorings, and groping around in shoal waters, while lift keel boats are often not intended for regular beaching.

First off, I know you E Coast types love your mud (Magic of The swatchways and all that) but if you have kids aboard they will be looking for available sand, and very few drop keelers sit comfortably upright on sand. And just because the E Coast is made of mud, dont beleive thats all you will ever ground on!

Secondly you most definitely do NOT want to run a drop keeler aground accidentally. A swing keeler is no problem because the keel does just that - swing up out of the way, but with a drop keeler running aground even at 2 - 3 knots is going to place huge stresses on the plate, hull and lifting mechanism - except in the kind of mud you have in places like Walton Backwaters. Even then if there happens to be something solid in the way - an old log or the remanant of a barge or suchlike... Also if you are seriously aground the chances are the centreplate will be seriously jammed by the weight of the boat - particularly if she was even slightly heeled when you ground. And she will be!

Having cruised a drop keeler in your peart of the world, my personal conclusion was that I would have preferred a Bilge Keeler with a good echo sounder - preferably a Fish Finder as that gives a graphic trace of the bottom. BKs are much more forgiving when things go wrong, and their lack of performance really is not all that noticeable in the 18 - 23 foot range anyway compared to the drop keelers.

Finally if you are on a drying mooring, unless you are in deep soft mud, the bilge keels will hold the vulnerable bilges of the boat clear of any rubbish that might come down on the tide.

Talk to other BK owners if you can and see what they say, before you make your choice.

The drop keeler I owned when i was up your way also was virtually flat bottomed, with a ballast lump just as you are thinking about. It was rarely worth the bother of putting her aground on purpose, and when negotiating shoal waters (we had a great time up the Walton backwaters!) we had the plate up anyway, so that grounding was still a matter of waiting for the tide. Far better a flood tide and a sounding device for shoal waters!

The big drawback I found with both drop keelers I have owned - and these were genuine drop keel boats like the Jaguar, not long keelers with additional drop plates for windward use like the Shrimper for example - they were virtually umanageable in a fresh breeze plate up under power. You could not consider for example extricating them from crowded moorings under power - they just skated around all over the place. And things are nowadays so crowded that you really cannot expect much sympathy from other owners if you insist on doing everything under sail and it goes wrong!

Anyway as far as sailing performance is concerned there are some lousy drop keelers, and some brilliant bilgers. And vice versa - some BKs have the sailing performance of a Caravan!

<hr width=100% size=1><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by oldharry on 16/02/2004 08:58 (server time).</FONT></P>

 

[AndrewB]

Re: A drop keel is not a sounding device!

Yes, I agree. A keel stub will normally press down into all but the hardest of surfaces and the boat will dry reasonably upright. BUT this causes mud to be pressed up the casing, and if there are any pebbles in the mud, the risk of jambing is so high. It happened to me once, and couldn't be cleared from the top so eventually the yacht then had to be careened. I swore I'd never own another drop-keeler and haven't!

I agree about bilge keelers, but they are not a total answer. The risk is of an irregular bottom surface, so that one keel comes down much lower than the other on the tide ultimately causing the yacht to crash over. Even the muddy creeks of the East Coast, which can be steep-sided at low water, are a hazard.

In practice (acquired the hard way) they will go over a long, long way without toppling, but the anxiety is nail-biting. One experience was quite sufficient to make me extremely wary of risking going aground somewhere I didn't know.

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[Jools_of_Top_Cat]

Shhhh, keep this quiet, but there is another type of configurtion that dries out flat, better than a bildge keeler in that she wont sink a single keel into mud as often seems to happen leaving an uncomfortable lyst of 30°.

This secret configuration also allows you to drive the boat into a beach in the right conditions. It has very shallow draft allowing you to anchor far closer to the shore or cross sand bars much earlier than your keel equiped friends.

This configuration also gives you far more space and deck space for children to play or move about. For shoter lengh vessels you will have more room than you would believe.

What can the secret configuration be, I have to keep it to myself because most sailors seem to hate it, and believe it is far to dangerous to contemplate.

<hr width=100% size=1>Julian

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.topcatsail.co.uk>Top Cat Homepage</A>

 

[AndrewB]

\"Far too dangerous to contemplate\"

Certainly is! Specially one way up a narrow mud-creek. Unless you have the Polynesian pullme-pushyou version, of course.

 

[Guest]

Of course it has to be ....

The Catamaran ..... hogs all available space in the marina, pitch-poles when gets pressed, slams the bridgedeck when in bad seas .....

Joking of course ....


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.qqbaltic.com/index.html>http://www.qqbaltic.com/index.html</A> For all those disbelievers ! /forums/images/icons/cool.gif

 

[graham]

You are right in saying that a twin keel boat is not ideal for creek crawling .You cannot reduce the draft of a twinkeel boat by heeling so once your stuck your stuck until the tide serves!

Also when intentionally drying out one bilge keel will often sink in more than the other giving you an uncomfortable angle .

Lifting keel boats that leave the slot open can be a problem with mud and stones jamming up in the keel box .

The ideal solution (for me anyway)is a lifting keel with a large ballast weight on the end which goes up and down with the keel.This serves two purposes.The center of gravity is lowered with the keel down making the boat more stable and better able to go to windward.With the keel up the ballast weight effectively blocks off the slot to prevent mud going in.

My Anderson22 has this type and we have dried out in mud hundreds of times,including 2 years on a drying mud mooring without any problems.

The keel up draft is about 20 inches and about 4 feet with it down.I think the keel weighs about 900 lb which makes her a capable little boat at sea in a blow.

Have a look at the Anderson website www.anderson22class.co.uk

The boat is a 4 berth boat Though you could not cruise comfortably 4 up for more than a weekend.She has a seperate marine toilet small chart table and room for a gimballed cooker. Only about 4 foot 8 inch headroom but very comfortable to sit in .Most boats have about a 5 hp outboard which is adequate and sits in a well in the back of the cockpit.

If you want any more info get in touch via the private message facility.

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[Guest]

Totally agree with OldHarry

Many a time I have watched a Limbo with lift keel skate around, while even the old Macwester etc. with its terrible Bilge Keels quietly slip in without hassle.

There are Pro's and Con's with ALL designs, NONE are jack of all trades ....... but the BK 'r has advantages that it is designed to sit on the keels right from word go.


<hr width=100% size=1>Nigel ...
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.qqbaltic.com/index.html>http://www.qqbaltic.com/index.html</A> For all those disbelievers ! /forums/images/icons/cool.gif

 

[graham]

Re: Totally agree with OldHarry

Old Harry and Nigel Luther both have made valid points for bilge keelers over drop keels.

I must admit if I were looking for a new boat I would not rule out either type.

The comment about drying out on sand is valid .Unless you have short beaching legs (as we do) a drop keel yacht is not able to stand up unaided .

But if like me you find drying out in muddy creeks appealing you will find the drop keel more likely to dry out upright.Even a slight angle can result in an uncomfortable night.

The keel structure on the Andersons is immensely strong and we have never encountered problems winding up the keel after grounding(I must admit to having accidently grounded once or twice!)

The comment about skating around in a cross wind with the keel up is also fair but usually its possible to lower at least a bit of plate wich makes a huge difference .Also its unwise to motor at speed with the rudder lower than the keel if any chance of grounding exists.

There is no ideal boat for anyone or anywhere ,keep an open mind and learn from the locals.

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[Colin24]

Once again thanks to all contributors, what a mine of knowledge this forum is, how did people survive before the internet (talked to each other I suppose) As ever a lot of contradictory opinions and all of them valid and worthy of consideration.
I thought I new what I was looking for but now realize I’ve still a lot of pros and cons to weigh.
I recon there is a danger of becoming so bogged down in pondering the variables that no sailing will get done at all. The best advice to myself is to get out there and do it.

Thanks to all,

Colin


<hr width=100% size=1>No boat.

 

[Inselaffe]

Hi Colin,

I can't offer any advice, as I had almost exactly the same question as you!
In the end I decided that I had spent long enough weighing up the seemingly endless pros and cons and went for a lifting keel ETAP 22 (with a bulb on the bottom). I guess like any engineering solution it's an 'optimisation' (more positive than 'compromise'!). I also guess I will only find out by trying!

I too was on a limited budget (6.5K), and will sail on the other side of the North sea in Germany, which makes me happy as its full of mud just like home in Brightlingsea! But there are also many hard sandbanks.......

Reading your thread gave me alternating periods of cold sweats and quiet confidence (almost!), but pretty much confirmed the pros and cons I had thought of or read or been told about.

Absolutely agree with you, the forum is just so full of info, advice and opinions -bloody marvelous!

Leigh



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[oldharry]

< how did people survive before the internet >

...the hard way - doing it, making the mistakes, and pondering how to get it a bit more right next time!

I think the key point of the responses we have collectively given is that there is no 'ideal boat' for anyone, or for any particular use. Rather than define what you do want, its often more productive to list the attributes you do NOT want in your new boat: For starters a keel boat is out because you have a drying mooring. Will you really manage without the standing headroom of a larger boat? (Back pain sufferers will know what I mean). Do you want a mean lean racing machine, because if so you will probably get very very wet. Exciting, but wet.

My boats progress over time from 'terrific' - 'brilliant' -'nice sailer' - 'well pretty good to windward' - 'not bad' - 'could really do with a bit more space' - 'wonder what shes worth now' : To: 'darling, theres a really nice little boat for sale down at the yard - its got... etc etc'

Now THIS one really IS 'terrific, brilliiant' etc.... for the time being!

Records (kept by SWMBO) show that this process lasts from 18 months to 5 years in my case.


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