chanelyacht
Well-Known Member
If you want the definitive version, give the MCA a ring at Southampton and ask for the Enforcement Branch.
Drunk in Charge...?
- Thread starter FishyInverness
- Start date
If you want the definitive version, give the MCA a ring at Southampton and ask for the Enforcement Branch.
Csail
N/A
You can prove anything with statistics, and I see those are American ones so there may be a cultural difference.
If 16% of accidents are caused by drunks, we'd better ban these sobre types quick, they cause 84% of accidents, they're lethal !
Nice one, i can't see any problem going sailing, stopping for a few beers then sailing back at what is about walking speed. Stats are just another tool to make new legislation to get money off us and anyway what can they do? Study i read said fatigue is more dangerous and i agree with that,,,,example, didn't sleep for 3 nights just a few days ago, measured a load of insulation and cut it and all dimensions were wrong, also typing was full of errors, and nearly two accidents in the car. I'm happy to have 4 or 5 pints and sail.Managed it for 35 yrs with no drink related accidents. On the other hand if my mum has even a glass of wine she gets tipsy! Also Swmbo never drinks or my 6 yr old so they are cptn!!!
RichardTaylor
Well-Known Member
I know this example is a commercial vessel, but didnt the Donald Redford and Hythe Pier have a disagreement caused by a drunk skipper?
The simple fact is that alcohol impairs judgement. That impaired judgement can be a major factor in collisions/accidents on the water. Whilst against out and out legislation (i.e. being bagged on the quayside and/or the water), there does need to be legislation which can be used to prevent out and out stupidity by a small minority. I wonder how those who are against this type of legislation would feel if they were broadsided by a boat piloted by an incapable (Pi$$ed) skipper.
As an aside, I have often wondered how many drink within "moderation" on their vessels on Sunday lunchtime and then drive home Sunday afternoon and are over the drink drive limit?
The simple fact is that alcohol impairs judgement. That impaired judgement can be a major factor in collisions/accidents on the water. Whilst against out and out legislation (i.e. being bagged on the quayside and/or the water), there does need to be legislation which can be used to prevent out and out stupidity by a small minority. I wonder how those who are against this type of legislation would feel if they were broadsided by a boat piloted by an incapable (Pi$$ed) skipper.
As an aside, I have often wondered how many drink within "moderation" on their vessels on Sunday lunchtime and then drive home Sunday afternoon and are over the drink drive limit?
NorthUp
Well-Known Member
fatal accidents
Here's a couple to consider:
http://www.pbo.co.uk/fileBank/PDF/maib-tobermory-rib-crash-report.pdf
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4825054.stm
Here's a couple to consider:
http://www.pbo.co.uk/fileBank/PDF/maib-tobermory-rib-crash-report.pdf
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4825054.stm
duncan99210
Well-Known Member
The RYA has a short piece on the topic on their website:
"A rule to introduce drink driving laws for non- professional mariners was included in the Railways and Transport Safety Act 2003 but this provision has not yet been brought into force.
In 2009 the Department for Transport (DfT) launched a consultation on its proposals to implement the regulations on drink driving for recreational craft.
The RYA objected to the DfT's then proposals because we believed they were badly drafted, meaning that it would have been very difficult for many boaters to know whether they were required to comply with the rules.
The RYA does not condone being drunk in charge of a vessel and we continually encourage boaters to act responsibly in this regard.
However, if the Government does implement drink driving laws then we believe that they must be clear, sensible and readily understandable."
That seems to sum up the position at the moment as regards the 2003 act. For recreational sailors at the moment, there is no 'limit' as regards alcohol. However, if you were to be involved in an incident which led to the damage of your vessel, another vessel or some shore side installation or caused someone an injury such that an investigation was started by the police, then the fact that you were under the influence of alcohol would become a factor in that investigation. I do not think that the police have the power to test you for alcohol in these circumstances (their power to breathalise comes from the various Road Traffic Acts).
All that said I have no objection to the proper authorities (eg police) having the power to stop you if they suspect you are drunk whilst in charge of a boat. What I don't like is some self appointed bunch of people telling me what I can and cannot do. If there was a law in place forbidding me to drink and sail, then the proper action for someone who sees me drunk as a skunk helming the boat is to call the police, who have the power to act. Don't come up to me and tell me what I'm doing is wrong; it'll only make me think you're a taxman........
"A rule to introduce drink driving laws for non- professional mariners was included in the Railways and Transport Safety Act 2003 but this provision has not yet been brought into force.
In 2009 the Department for Transport (DfT) launched a consultation on its proposals to implement the regulations on drink driving for recreational craft.
The RYA objected to the DfT's then proposals because we believed they were badly drafted, meaning that it would have been very difficult for many boaters to know whether they were required to comply with the rules.
The RYA does not condone being drunk in charge of a vessel and we continually encourage boaters to act responsibly in this regard.
However, if the Government does implement drink driving laws then we believe that they must be clear, sensible and readily understandable."
That seems to sum up the position at the moment as regards the 2003 act. For recreational sailors at the moment, there is no 'limit' as regards alcohol. However, if you were to be involved in an incident which led to the damage of your vessel, another vessel or some shore side installation or caused someone an injury such that an investigation was started by the police, then the fact that you were under the influence of alcohol would become a factor in that investigation. I do not think that the police have the power to test you for alcohol in these circumstances (their power to breathalise comes from the various Road Traffic Acts).
All that said I have no objection to the proper authorities (eg police) having the power to stop you if they suspect you are drunk whilst in charge of a boat. What I don't like is some self appointed bunch of people telling me what I can and cannot do. If there was a law in place forbidding me to drink and sail, then the proper action for someone who sees me drunk as a skunk helming the boat is to call the police, who have the power to act. Don't come up to me and tell me what I'm doing is wrong; it'll only make me think you're a taxman........
Seajet
...
All that said I have no objection to the proper authorities (eg police) having the power to stop you if they suspect you are drunk whilst in charge of a boat. What I don't like is some self appointed bunch of people telling me what I can and cannot do. If there was a law in place forbidding me to drink and sail, then the proper action for someone who sees me drunk as a skunk helming the boat is to call the police, who have the power to act. Don't come up to me and tell me what I'm doing is wrong; it'll only make me think you're a taxman........
Wasn't it Philip K Dick who said " Alcohol can make you shoot at tax inspectors; and miss ! "
I can predict right now that the reason stiff legislation will be enforced will be after an accident involving a speedboat; they are the type of boat more likely to cause serious damage and / or injury ( speed & propellors ), more likely to be ratted, and less likely to know what they're doing even when sobre !
Wasn't it Philip K Dick who said " Alcohol can make you shoot at tax inspectors; and miss ! "
I can predict right now that the reason stiff legislation will be enforced will be after an accident involving a speedboat; they are the type of boat more likely to cause serious damage and / or injury ( speed & propellors ), more likely to be ratted, and less likely to know what they're doing even when sobre !
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FishyInverness
Well-Known Member
ChanelYacht, thanks for that, when I get a moment I will probably give them a call and ask.
Duncan, excellent bit of info and well put! Cheers
Duncan, excellent bit of info and well put! Cheers
duncan99210
Well-Known Member
Seajet, I think it was Robert Heinlein in 'Time Enough for Love'. I think that one of the other forumites has the quotation as his signature block and it was that that set me thinking.....
Evadne
Well-Known Member
a pedant writes
I think it was actually that well known liberal softie, Robert Heinlein [/pedant]
I think it was actually that well known liberal softie, Robert Heinlein [/pedant]
Seajet
...
I think you're both right...
Bosun Higgs
N/A
A bit. Most harbours have bye laws and these are derived from a standard set. They prohibit skippering a boat under the influence and the harbour master and appropriate staff can stop you and board your vessel without your permission.
A few years ago there was a nasty case in the Thames ( the Marchioness?) which was down to a drunken master. Prezza with his qualifications as an ex waiter on cruise ships brought in a law allowing for breath testing and since yotties are by definition rich and Tories ( he ought ot read some of the posts on here!) he made sure that the new law applied to private yachts. So if you are brahms and listz on your boat and dibble or the HM see you they can ram a breath testing machine down your gullet
Whether this covers every boat everywhere, I do not know. Much fuss about it when it was brought in but given my difficulty in staying upright on non moving dry land when pi**ed, I entirely support it.
uxb
Well-Known Member
FFS...
Drink impairs judgement and causes car accidents. If you are the drunk then it will cause you all sorts of grief.
Some silly tart bawling at her brats in the back of the Chelsea tractor is just as bad but without the consequences.
People have been brainwashed by the **** in the media demonising the evils of drink driving when there are far worse distractions which go on without legal sanction.
They are trying to do it with speeding as well now.
Let folk get on with getting pished in peace and by all means hang them out to dry if they cause an accident.
It's called 'Taking Responsibility For One's Actions'
Anyone remember when folk used to do that- in the days before the nanny state?
Drink impairs judgement and causes car accidents. If you are the drunk then it will cause you all sorts of grief.
Some silly tart bawling at her brats in the back of the Chelsea tractor is just as bad but without the consequences.
People have been brainwashed by the **** in the media demonising the evils of drink driving when there are far worse distractions which go on without legal sanction.
They are trying to do it with speeding as well now.
Let folk get on with getting pished in peace and by all means hang them out to dry if they cause an accident.
It's called 'Taking Responsibility For One's Actions'
Anyone remember when folk used to do that- in the days before the nanny state?
Cardo
Well-Known Member
Alas, in this day and age, when someone does have a mishap, they usually blame the state for not having protected them in the first place.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
l'escargot
Well-Known Member
The trouble with statistics is that they don't differentiate between people who have been drinking who have accidents and people who have accidents because they have been drinking.
Also "advice" from "volunteers" is seldom appreciated, attempts at enforcement even less so.
Also "advice" from "volunteers" is seldom appreciated, attempts at enforcement even less so.
chanelyacht
Well-Known Member
Very much so - the US Coastguard's area includes large inland waterways, and a good few of them have so called water parties which are basically very large numbers of boaters rafting up and getting completely ratted.
mcframe
Well-Known Member
I was going to to post about how the number of beers you (as skipper) can drink are proportional to the WX and the type of anchor you're using (as long as you remember to lower the appropriate ensign), but I won't ;-)
William_H
Well-Known Member
Intoxication and cars
Regarding car accidents and deaths in Australia it has been shown that over the last 40 years accidents and death has been reduced by 70% that is only 1/3 the number of accidents and deaths when related to the increse in cars and miles driven. This is attributed to Random Breath testing for intoxication, Speed cameras and traps and safer cars. You choose what you believe to be most significant. olewill
Regarding car accidents and deaths in Australia it has been shown that over the last 40 years accidents and death has been reduced by 70% that is only 1/3 the number of accidents and deaths when related to the increse in cars and miles driven. This is attributed to Random Breath testing for intoxication, Speed cameras and traps and safer cars. You choose what you believe to be most significant. olewill
ms.lau
Active Member
as a dyed-in-the-wool liberal i reject the 'political correctness' argument, it's usually about being asked to treat other people as we'd like to be treated ourselves. which is fair enough, i think.
if someone i loved was maimed or killed by a drunken boater i'd be really, really angry and would want to see something bad happen to that drunken boater.
but (as has already been said) we risk our lives by going to bed or putting the kettle on. i can see that driving at 80mph up the m5 on a foggy november evening would be dangerous enough (as we've recently seen, i must've missed it by 20 minutes, going south) without the added impairment of alcohol.
i just can't really see how you can quantify the danger so simply with sailing. i've sailed into port at night after a long and taxing days sail and nearly come to grief, sober (the shame!). i've seriously lost confidence in a skipper who didn't seem to be awake, let alone able to see properly half an hour after he came on watch (he didn't drink or do 'anything else'). i've shared a lock into cardiff bay with some seriously pissed-up boys in their scary speedboat with the pumping music. etc., etc.. we watch and learn and make our own judgements.
i think most of us are responsible enough (and careful enough of our beloved boats) to know how much we could or should drink. and the trouble with legislation is that, once it's in force, it's very difficult to change back. personal responsibility is what it's all about. consequences? well, we never can see around that corner, however hard we try.
powerboats? well, obviously, they should be banned. outright.
laura
if someone i loved was maimed or killed by a drunken boater i'd be really, really angry and would want to see something bad happen to that drunken boater.
but (as has already been said) we risk our lives by going to bed or putting the kettle on. i can see that driving at 80mph up the m5 on a foggy november evening would be dangerous enough (as we've recently seen, i must've missed it by 20 minutes, going south) without the added impairment of alcohol.
i just can't really see how you can quantify the danger so simply with sailing. i've sailed into port at night after a long and taxing days sail and nearly come to grief, sober (the shame!). i've seriously lost confidence in a skipper who didn't seem to be awake, let alone able to see properly half an hour after he came on watch (he didn't drink or do 'anything else'). i've shared a lock into cardiff bay with some seriously pissed-up boys in their scary speedboat with the pumping music. etc., etc.. we watch and learn and make our own judgements.
i think most of us are responsible enough (and careful enough of our beloved boats) to know how much we could or should drink. and the trouble with legislation is that, once it's in force, it's very difficult to change back. personal responsibility is what it's all about. consequences? well, we never can see around that corner, however hard we try.
powerboats? well, obviously, they should be banned. outright.
laura
chanelyacht
Well-Known Member
No.
Section 80 of the Railways and Transport Safety Act 2003 is the one that applies to breath testing. Although the Act has Royal Assent, this section has yet to be enacted for pleasure craft.
Harbours may have local byelaws.
Only the Police can carry out breath testing, and in the case of private craft there is no offence of failing to provide.
Of course, if you did "fail" a breath test, or were observably drunk and refused to take one, it may influence the jury's decision should a manslaughter case follow.
GrahamM376
Well-Known Member
Laws regarding cars are much simpler to enforce because if you're unfit to drive you don't "have" to.
I don't like getting drunk anyway - just makes me throw up if I have too much but, I do like a drink or three. My boat is home for 9-10 months of the year and I wouldn't consider going sailing if over the limit but, unlike a car, I may have to get underway if the wind gets up and the anchor drags. What happens then? Do I have to remain "under the limit" for 24 hours a day, 300 days a year just in case?
When the new law was proposed a few years ago, small tenders which are the worst place to be when drunk, were to be excluded which seems strange. Perhaps the thinking was that a small slow tender wouldn't cause much damage to another vessel but, what about the passengers?
I'm against random breath tests for leisure boaters but, do think that anyone having an accident should be breath tested IF they appear drunk and, if alcohol was the predominant cause of the accident, then they should be prosecuted.
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