Dredging? So how does that help?

[macnorton]

The Anglian EA did try to dredge the lower Nene by putting the silt in the middle of the river for the flow to take it away,I have a letter from the EA confirming this is how its done!
Also the 1977 act gives them the power to levy a £2 registration fee, and non-payment of this is why they take boat users to court, I don't think there is an act for them to charge for the navigation part of the licence fee.

 

[2Tizwoz]

..... Our aspirations are rather more basic - an unobstructed navigation channel a few feet deep. The basic function of maintaining navigable depths is ignored whilst vast sums are spent on desirable but inessential capital projects purely to make good headlines. Then we are told there is no money. If, many months (or years) after problems are reported, money is eventually found by begging unspent funds from other departments within EA (yes, that's the crazy way their budgeting works!) then the depressed mussel or some other inhabitant of the shallows then has his say to stop the vital work at the expense of the frustrated licence-payer.

The over-riding problem is not a regional one but a national one and the funding issue is only part of it. The real problem is the total unsuitability and incompetence of the Environment Agency as a navigation authority due to the way it is established, despite the fact that many individual navigation officers try their best.
Nevertheless, keep trying!

The operation of the E.A. is echoed in the north east.

Certainly the conscientious E.A. officers (there are some swimming against the tide) have to handle the problem that the RSPB and similar organisations have a great 'environmental' appeal. Which of us doesn't like wildlife? Public perception gives irresponsible power to the 'environmental' lobby at enormous expense to every piece of work carried out in the country. Certainly we don't protect ourselves if we ignore our environment and pollute it but the detail simply isn't questioned. Perhaps the flooded wildlife will be given protection and humans may be fortunate and enjoy the incidental protection?

The grand scheme is so attractive, whereas clearing a drain or dredging some silt just doesn't receive the same Kudos. Such things are looked down on.

 

[macnorton]

What is apparent from this thread is the same feeling exists towards the EA from north to south, at present and in the short term the issue of dredging is in the mind of the general public.
Perhaps the various groups around the country could come together as a common voice which as a larger no of boat users could have more say in the ears of politicians, esp at the moment.
The canals have the IWA who are not interested in rivers so perhaps the time has come for a national river users group to represent us?
Your thoughts?

 

[TMBA]

What is apparent from this thread is the same feeling exists towards the EA from north to south, at present and in the short term the issue of dredging is in the mind of the general public.
Perhaps the various groups around the country could come together as a common voice which as a larger no of boat users could have more say in the ears of politicians, esp at the moment.
The canals have the IWA who are not interested in rivers so perhaps the time has come for a national river users group to represent us?
Your thoughts?

There is already a National Navigation User Forum - NNUF - made up of representatives from all the regional forums such as the Thames Navigation User Forum - TNUF - of which the TMBA is now a member. Whilst users try hard they have no real teeth as the Forums have no statutory powers, they are simply advisory or consultation groups. A recent indication of just how ineffective they are was the decision to put a licence fee cap on larger barge type craft simple because they had to pay more "because they are bigger".

 

[djm]

Also the 1977 act gives them the power to levy a £2 registration fee, and non-payment of this is why they take boat users to court, I don't think there is an act for them to charge for the navigation part of the licence fee.

No! The 2010 Inland Waterways Order supersedes this for registration charges by repealing Section 20 of the 1977 Act. In fact, they can now legally charge whatever they like without any prior consultation, another appalling result of the 2010 Order. But nothing else in the 1977 Act has changed and the EA still has the statutory duty to maintain the navigation channels.

 

[macnorton]

There is already a National Navigation User Forum - NNUF - made up of representatives from all the regional forums such as the Thames Navigation User Forum - TNUF - of which the TMBA is now a member. Whilst users try hard they have no real teeth as the Forums have no statutory powers, they are simply advisory or consultation groups. A recent indication of just how ineffective they are was the decision to put a licence fee cap on larger barge type craft simple because they had to pay more "because they are bigger".

I have been boating since the 1960's and have never heard of them!

 

[boatone]

I have been boating since the 1960's and have never heard of them!

It saddens me that you have not been reading my posts

I have mentioned TNUF many times in the last year or so. However, in your defence TNUF is a new incarnation of what was previously the WWG (Waterway Working Group).

This document, although now out of date, does explain a little about the various consultative groups: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...data/file/82387/epac-rlfac-consult-annexc.pdf

 

[macnorton]

There is already a National Navigation User Forum - NNUF - made up of representatives from all the regional forums such as the Thames Navigation User Forum - TNUF - of which the TMBA is now a member. Whilst users try hard they have no real teeth as the Forums have no statutory powers, they are simply advisory or consultation groups. A recent indication of just how ineffective they are was the decision to put a licence fee cap on larger barge type craft simple because they had to pay more "because they are bigger".

If this nnuf had members from ALL, it would have members from GOBA and ANRC, but it doesn't so it is not national.

What we need is a truly national organisation that is not just another Thames user group!

And that is my point.

 

[boatone]

If this nnuf had members from ALL, it would have members from GOBA and ANRC, but it doesn't so it is not national.
What we need is a truly national organisation that is not just another Thames user group!.

National Navigation User Forum Membership - August 2011
Residential Boat Owners Assoc.
Barge Association
River Medway Users Assoc
British Marine Federation
National Assoc. of Boat Owners
Royal Yachting Assoc.
Inland Waterways Advisory Council & River Thames Alliance
British Canoe Union
Thames User Group - navigation
Assoc. of waterway cruising clubs
Inland Waterways Assoc.
Historic Narrow Boat Owners Club
British Rowing
Commercial Boat Owners Assoc.
Association of Pleasure Craft Operators
Great Ouse Boating Association

As you can see GOBA is a member. ANRC probably not big enough to have direct representation.

 

[djm]

If this nnuf had members from ALL, it would have members from GOBA and ANRC, but it doesn't so it is not national.

What we need is a truly national organisation that is not just another Thames user group!

And that is my point.

But GOBA is a member of the National Navigation User Forum.
Its Chairman, Ian Cox, presented a well-reasoned paper to the NNUF Finance Committee in November 2013: http://www.goba.org.uk/medialibrary/NNUFSubCommitteeNov2013.pdf

 

[macnorton]

National Navigation User Forum Membership - August 2011
Residential Boat Owners Assoc.
Barge Association
River Medway Users Assoc
British Marine Federation
National Assoc. of Boat Owners
Royal Yachting Assoc.
Inland Waterways Advisory Council & River Thames Alliance
British Canoe Union
Thames User Group - navigation
Assoc. of waterway cruising clubs
Inland Waterways Assoc.
Historic Narrow Boat Owners Club
British Rowing
Commercial Boat Owners Assoc.
Association of Pleasure Craft Operators
Great Ouse Boating Association

As you can see GOBA is a member. ANRC probably not big enough to have direct representation.

Ok, fair point. out of the 16 members there is one that speaks for river boaters not on the Thames.

Were this truly National it would be able to speak for boat users from ALL of the following waterways, there are over 70'000 boats on the waterways.

From Jim Shead


Aberdare Canal
Aberdeenshire Canal
Aike Beck or Lockington Navigation
Aire & Calder Dewsbury Old Cut Section
Aire & Calder Main Line
Aire & Calder Navigation - Selby Section
Aire & Calder Navigation - Wakefield Section
Aire & Dun Canal project.
Aire and Calder Navigation and River Aire
Alford Canal project
Ancholme - Witham Canal project
Andover Canal
Andover Canal to Basingstoke Canal project
Anglesey Branch
Annandale Canal project
Anson Branch (BCN)
Arbroath - Forfar Canal project
Arun Navigation
Ashburton Canal Project
Ashby de la Zouch Canal
Ashton Canal
Ashton, Peak Forest and Macclesfield Canals
Aylesbury - Abingdon Canal project
Aylsham Navigation
Barnsley Canal
Basingstoke - Itchen Canal project
Basingstoke Canal
Bath & Bristol Canal project
Baybridge Canal
BCN Main Line
Beaulieu River
Bedford & Milton Keynes Waterway
Bedford - Grand Junction Canal project
Bell Water Drain
Beverley Beck
Billericay Canal Project
Birmingham & Liverpool Junction Canal
Birmingham & Warwick Junction Canal
Birmingham and Fazeley Canal
Birmingham Canal Navigations
Bo'ness Canal
Bradford Canal
Braunton Canal and River Taw schemes
Brecknock & Abergavenny Canal
Bridgewater Canal
Bridgwater and Taunton Canal
Bristol & Taunton Canal
Bristol & Western Canal project
Bristol - Cirencester canal project
Bristol - Salisbury canal projects
Bristol - Thames Head Canal project
Bristol Junction Canal project
Brown's Canal
Bude Canal
Burry and Loughor Rivers
Burwell Lode
Bury & Sladen Canal project
Caistor Canal
Calder and Hebble Navigation
Caldon Branch - Trent and Mersey Canal
Caledonian Canal
Campbeltown Canal
Candle Dyke to Hickling Broad
Cann Quarry Canal
Cannock Extension Canal (BCN)
Car Dyke
Carlisle Canal
Cassington Cut
Castle Dyke
Cemlyn Canal
Central Junction Canal project
Central Union Canal project
Chard Canal
Chelmer & Blackwater Navigation
Chester Canal
Chesterfield Canal
Chichester Canal
Cinderford Canal
Cod Beck
Commercial Canal project
Coombe Hill Canal
Cottingham & Hull Canal project
Counter Wash Drain (Great Ouse)
Coventry Canal
Coventry Canal (Detached Portion)
Cowbridge Drain
Crinan Canal
Cromford Canal
Croydon Canal
Cumberland Canal Project
Cyfarthfa Canal
Dartford & Crayford Navigation
Daw End Branch Canal (BCN)
Dearne and Dove Canal
Derby Canal
Dick Brook
Digbeth Branch Canal
Dingwall Canal
Doctor's Canal
Donnington Wood Canal
Dorset & Somerset Canal
Douglas Navigation
Driffield Navigation
Droitwich Canal
Droitwich Junction Canal
Dudley Canal Line No 1
Dudley Canal Line No 2
Duke's Cut
Durham Canal project
Eardington Forges Canal
Earl of Ashburnham's Canal
East Fen Catchwater Drain
Edinburgh and Glasgow Union Canal
Ellesmere & Chester Canal
Ellesmere Canal
Emmet's Canal
End of Waterway Table
English & Bristol Channel canal schemes
English & Bristol Channels Junction Canal project
English & Bristol Channels Ship Canal
Erewash Canal
Exeter & Crediton Navigation
Exeter Ship Canal
Fletcher's Canal
Flint Coal Canal
Forth & Cart Canal
Forth & Clyde Canal
Forth & Clyde Canal - Glasgow Branch
Fossdyke Canal
Frith Bank Drain
Galton's Canal
General Warde's (Dafen) Canal
General Warde's (Yspitty) Canal
Glamorganshire Canal
Glan-Y-Wern Canal
Glasgow, Paisley & Johnstone Canal
Glastonbury Canal
Glenkens Canal
Gloucester & Sharpness Ship Canal
Gower Branch Canal (BCN)
Grand Junction - Old Stratford & Buckingham Branch
Grand Junction Canal
Grand Surrey Canal
Grand Surrey Dock, Canal & Junction Railway project
Grand Union Aylesbury Branch
Grand Union Canal
Grand Union Erewash Canal
Grand Union Leicester Section
Grand Union Main Line
Grand Union Market Harborough Branch
Grand Union Northampton Branch
Grand Union Paddington Branch
Grand Union Regents Canal
Grand Union Rickmansworth Branch
Grand Union Slough Branch
Grand Union Welford Branch
Grand Union Wendover Branch
Grand Western Canal
Grantham Canal
Greasbrough (Park Gate) Canal
Great Ouse Relief Channel
Grosvenor Canal
Gwauncaegurwen Canal
Hackney Canal
Haddiscoe (or New) Cut - Norfolk & Suffolk Broads
Hall Green Branch - Trent and Mersey Canal
Hants & Berks Junction Canal project
Hardley Dyke (River Yare)
Haslingden Canal
Helston Canal project
Herefordshire & Gloucestershire Canal
Hertford Union Canal (Grand Union)
High Peak Junction Canal project
Higher Avon Navigation
Hobhole Drain
Hopkin's Canal
Horncastle Canal
Howbridge Drain
Huddersfield Broad Canal
Huddersfield Narrow Canal
Hulme Lock Branch (Bridgewater Canal)
Invararnan Canal
Ipswich & Stowmarket Navigation
Isle of Dogs Canal
Ivelchester & Langport Navigation
Junction Drain
Kennet and Avon Canal
Kensington Canal
Kent & Sussex Junction Canal project
Ketley Canal
Keyingham Navigable Drains project
Kidwelly & Llanelly Canal
Kilbagie Canal
Kilgetty Canal
Knarsborough Canal Schemes
Kyme Eau - Sleaford Canal
Kymer's Canal
Lakenheath Lode (Great Ouse)
Lancaster - Morecambe Ship Canal project
Lancaster Canal
Lancaster Canal - Glasson Dock Branch
Langley Dyke (River Yare)
Lark - Orwell Canal project
Lechlade - Abingdon Canal project
Leeds & Liverpool - Leigh Branch
Leeds & Liverpool - Rufford Branch
Leeds & Liverpool - Springs Branch
Leeds and Liverpool Canal
Leek Branch - Trent and Mersey Canal
Leicester Navigation
Leicestershire & Northampton Union Canal
Leominster Canal
Leven Canal
Liskeard & Looe Union Canal
Little Ouse or Brandon River
Little Punchard Gill Boat Level
Liverpool Canal project
Llandeilo & Llandovery Canal projects
Llansamlet (Smith's) Canal
Llechryd Canal
London & Birmingham Junction Canal project
London & Cambridge Junction Canal
London & Southampton Ports Junction Canal project
London & Western Canal project
London - Portsmouth Canal project
London Canal Project
London to Portsmouth Ship Canal schemes
Loughborough Navigation
Louth Navigation
Lower Avon Navigation
Lush's Drain
Lydney Canal
Macclesfield Canal
Mackworth's Canal
Manchester & Dee Ship Canal project
Manchester & Salford Junction Canal
Manchester Ship Canal
Manchester Ship Canal - River Irwell Upper Reach
Manchester Ship Canal - Walton Lock Branch
Manchester, Bolton & Bury Canal
Mardyke Canal
Market Weighton Canal
Martham Broad to West Somerton
Maud Foster Drain
Meadow Dyke to Waxham Bridge
Medlam Drain
Melton Mowbray Navigation
Mersey & Irwell Navigation
Middle Level - Bevill's Leam
Middle Level - Black Ham Drain
Middle Level - Forty Foot River
Middle Level - King's Dyke
Middle Level - New Dyke
Middle Level - Old River Nene
Middle Level - Popham's Eau
Middle Level - Ramsey High Lode
Middle Level - Sixteen Foot River
Middle Level - Twenty Foot River
Middle Level - Well Creek
Middle Level - Whittlesey Dyke
Middle Level Drain
Middle Level Navigation
Middlesbrough - Redcar Ship Canal Project
Millwall Canal
Monkey Island - Isleworth canal project
Monkland Canal
Monmouthshire & Brecon Canal
Monmouthshire Canal
Montgomeryshire Canal
Morris's Canal
Muirkirk Canal
Mundon or White House Farm Canal
Neath and Tennant Canals
Neath Canal
Nent Force Level
Netherton Tunnel Branch Canal
New Bolingbroke Drain
Newcastle & Hexham Canal project
Newcastle - Carlisle - Maryport Canal schemes
Newcastle-under-Lyme Canal
Newcastle-under-Lyme Junction Canal
Newdigate Canals
Newham Drain
Newport Pagnell Canal
Norfolk and Suffolk Broads
North Eastern Junction Canal project
North Walsham and Dilham Canal
North Wilts Canal
Nottingham Canal
Nutbrook Canal
Oakham Canal
Old Bedford River
Old Grand Union Canal
Old Main Line (BCN)
Old River Lee
Old West River (Great Ouse)
Oulton Broad and Dyke
Oxford Canal
Oxford Canal (Northern Section)
Oxford Canal (Southern Section)
Padstow - Lostwithiel Scheme
Par Canal
Parnall's Canal
Parrott's Canal
Peak Forest Canal
Pembrey Canal
Pen-clawdd Canal
Pen-y-fan Canal
Penrhiwtyn Canal
Pensnett Canal
Perth Canal projects
Petworth Canal
Pidcock's Canal
Plas Kynaston Canal
Pocklington Canal
Polbrock Canal
Portsmouth & Arundel Canal
Portsmouth, Southampton & London Junction Canal
Preston Brook Branch (Bridgewater Canal)
Preston Ship Canal Schemes
Public Devonshire Canal Project
Reach Lode
Reading - Monkey Island Canal project
Red Jacket Canal
Retyn and East Wheal Rose scheme
Ribble Link
Ripon Canal
River Adur
River Aire
River Alde
River Ancholme
River Ant
River Arun
River Avon (Bristol)
River Avon (Hampshire)
River Avon (Warwick)
River Blyth
River Brede
River Brue
River Bure
River Cam
River Cart
River Chet
River Colne
River Crouch
River Dart
River Deben
River Dee
River Derwent
River Derwent (Derbyshire)
River Don
River Don (Upper Section)
River Foss
River Fowey
River Frome
River Gipping
River Glen
River Great Ouse
River Hamble
River Hull
River Humber
River Idle
River Isle and Westport Canal
River Itchen
River Ivel
River Lark (Great Ouse)
River Lee
River Lee - Bow Creek
River Lug
River Medway
River Mersey
River Nar
River Nene
River Nene Stanground Branch
River Orwell
River Ouse (Sussex)
River Ouse (Yorkshire)
River Parrett
River Ribble
River Roach
River Roding
River Rother (Eastern)
River Rother (Western)
River Salwarpe
River Severn
River Stort
River Stour (Kent)
River Stour (Suffolk)
River Stour (Worcestershire)
River Swale
River Tamar
River Tees
River Tern
River Thames
River Thurne
River Tone
River Trent
River Tyne
River Ure
River Wansbeck
River Waveney
River Wear
River Weaver
River Weaver - Old Navigation Line
River Welland
River Wey
River Wharfe
River Wissey
River Witham Navigation
River Wye
River Yare
River Yeo
Rochdale Canal
Rockland Dyke and Rockland Broad
Romford Canal
Royal Military Canal
Rushall Canal (BCN)
Salford - Wigan Canal project
Salisbury & Southampton Canal
Sankey Brook Navigation
Scarborough and Whitby Canal schemes
Scarsdale & High Peak Canal project
Sheffield & South Yorkshire Navigation
Sheffield and South Yorkshire New Junction Canal
Sheffield Canal
Shrewsbury Canal
Shropshire Canal
Shropshire Union - Llangollen Canal
Shropshire Union - Middlewich Branch
Shropshire Union Canal
Shropshire Union Dee Branch
Shropshire Union Main Line
Shropshire Union Montgomery Canal
Shropshire Union Prees Branch
Sir John Glynne's Canal
Sir Nigel Gresley's Canal
Sleaford Navigation
Soho Branch Loop Line
Somerset Coal Canal
Speedwell Level
Spon Lane Locks Branch (BCN)
St Nicholas Bay Harbour & Caterbury Canal
St. Columb Canal
Staffordshire & Worcestershire Canal
Stainforth & Keadby Canal
Stalham Dyke (River Ant)
Stevenston Canal
Stockton & Darlington Canal Project
Stonebridge Drain
Stort - Cam Canal projects
Stourbridge Canal
Stourbridge Canal - Stourbridge Branch
Stourbridge Canal - The Fens on Pensnett Chase Branch
Stourbridge Extension Canal
Stourbridge, Wolverhampton & Birmingham Junc'n Canal
Stover Canal
Stratford upon Avon Canal
Stratford upon Avon Canal - Kingswood Branch
Stretford and Leigh Branch (Bridgewater Canal)
Stroudwater Canal
Swaffham Lode
Swansea Canal
Tamar Manure Navigation
Tame Valley Canal
Taunton - Uphill Canal project
Tavistock Canal
Tees Canal schemes
Tennant Canal
Thames & Medway Canal
Thames and Severn Canal
Thorpe Village Loop (River Yare)
Titford Canal (BCN)
Torrington Canal
Tremadoc Canal
Trent and Mersey Canal
Trewyddfa Canal
Trowse Mills Branch (River Yare)
Ulverston Canal
Upper Avon
Vauxhall Canal
Walsall Branch Canal
Walsall Canal
Wandsworth - Croydon Canal project
Warwick & Birmingham Canal
Warwick & Napton Canal
Weald of Kent Canal project
Wednesbury Oak Loop Line
Wednesbury Old Canal (BCN)
Went Canal project
Wern Canal
West Fen Catchwater Drain
West Fen Drain
Western Union Canal project
Wey and Arun Junction Canal
Whaley Bridge Branch
Whitby Canal
Wicken Lode
Wilts and Berks Canal
Wimbledon & Wandsworth Canal project
Wisbech Canal
Witham Navigable Drains
Wombridge Canal
Woodeaves Canal
Worcester & Gloucester Union Canal project
Worcester and Birmingham Canal
Worsley Brook Navigation project
Wyrley and Essington Canal (BCN

 

[djm]

Err? It's the ENVIRONMENT AGENCY National Navigation User Forum. Nothing to do with at least 99% of the waterways on your list.

 

[Danbury]

In reply to the OP....

The media have consistently confused the whole dredging debate... and as a result the general public...

The flooding in the Somerset Levels is TOTALLY DIFFERENT to the flooding in the Thames Valley... well, apart from the water I guess. The Somerset Levels are MAN MADE and rely on maintenance of the various drainage ditches and drains and pumps to keep the fields and houses above water... If there is little or no maintenance (like dredging !), flooding will result on a major scale, as has happened recently.

The Thames Valley is a largely natural feature (it's been slightly altered with the Jubilee Channel, that will change things) with a totally different geological structure... it relies on the flood plain along the course of the river to provide overflow at times of deluge... It's only the media and a few locals jumping onto the bandwagon who have talked of dredging.

 

[macnorton]

Err? It's the ENVIRONMENT AGENCY National Navigation User Forum. Nothing to do with at least 99% of the waterways on your list.

As its nothing to do with 99% of the national navigations on the list it's not national is it? and my point is we need a national voice that speaks for the 70000 licence payers that are in the UK, most of whom are not on the Thames.

 

[ianc1200]

Re "It's only the media and a few locals jumping onto the bandwagon who have talked of dredging."

Even a short reading of the recent threads on this forum will show this is not true. Some like myself strongly believe dredging is an important part of the Thames flood prevention, others have strongly expressed the view dredging will have minimal effect.

 

[2Tizwoz]

These youtube videos illustrate the recent consequences in Dumfries.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9zLM7P_-fw as it was in 2010 with trees growing in the silted river channel, and as it was in the sixties.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rs0wzIdeGVo when people were closer to the land and better understood the need for keeping river channels clear. Nature was loved and respected more then.

 

[Brayman]

These youtube videos illustrate the recent consequences in Dumfries.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9zLM7P_-fw as it was in 2010 with trees growing in the silted river channel, and as it was in the sixties.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rs0wzIdeGVo when people were closer to the land and better understood the need for keeping river channels clear. Nature was loved and respected more then.

I don't see how those two films are related - unless you work for the Daily Mail
The Nith is a tidal river and the first video just shows that there isn't enough water coming downstream to keep the old channel. That's what happens to rivers, they are natural elements of our geography. You go anywhere in Scotland at different times of the year and you will see massive differences in the state of any river. They are rivers, that's what they do! Leave them to it.

 

[2Tizwoz]

I don't see how those two films are related ..................They are rivers, that's what they do! Leave them to it.

The connection is that they show the river channel in Dumfries. They illustrate in advance of most recent events the cause of this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8hgZbITAyQ&list=UULMxKQYWZ66IBY6Tac6YZXw&feature=c4-overview It's much easier to say leave them to it if you think you're unaffected.