Dragging of anchors

[Neeves]

Agree with you, we used our Kobra 2 all the way down to Greece from Plymouth. Anchored in some very strong winds and a variety of circumstances. Only dragged once, oh and the shank never bent either
We would certainly go with it again if we had an old style anchor on the boat, and would include a Delta in that

Interesting this person considers a Kobra a new generation anchor and the Delta old generation
http://www.mysailing.com.au/news/testing-the-new-generation-of-anchors
'Looking at the results we have a group of anchors — call them “old generation,” the CQR, Delta, and Bruce — that might have a holding capacity of 750kg for a 15kg anchor set properly in a good holding seabed. We have another group of anchors, the “new generation,” Fortress, Spade, Super SARCA, SARCA Excel, Manson Supreme and Kobra — that have a holding capacity of 1500kg for the same weighted 15kg anchor.'

Edit just realised that is your test, would like to commend you on a thorough piece of work, excellent

Ideas, or definitions, evolve?

Thanks for the compliment - but we must be able to hone our ideas and interpretations - and admit our mistakes (I've made some real clangers!)

Jonathan

 

[JumbleDuck]

Those that have invested in the more modern versions did so, not out of desire to support an anchor maker, but to reduce or remove the incidence of dragging. People wanted certainty, or greater certainty.

Or they wanted nice shiny new stuff. Or they were convinced by lurid stories about older designs of anchor. Or ...

 

[sailaboutvic]

IMHO there is a considerable difference between a modern anchor and a new generation one. Whereas Kobra II has been designed in the past ten(?) years it offers no particular technical advance over a Delta that was designed 30(?) years ago, except possibly its shank shape that seems to have been derived from Spade and Oceane. Whereas the Ultra is technically advanced, benefiting from recent knowledge about tip loading, three dimensional shank construction, etc. There is no shortage of 'new' anchor designs but that does not automatically make them NG ones.

So far as dragging is concerned my experience with Delta for 20 years and Rocna for 10 is that, once set satisfactorily, neither has ever dragged other than in exceptional circumstances. These include being set in a huge bundle of fishing line enough to fill a full size bin liner, a tin can stuck over the point of the Rocna, a large rock jammed into the hoop of the same anchor and, quite recently, adverse experience with an Osculati swivel that would not lie straight in line with the shank but determinedly jammed repetitively and pointed downwards.

All our dragging experience has occurred when trying to get either type to set, due to various types of bottom - soft mud, hard sand, weed, rock that looked like sand, etc.

We also use a fork moor very successfully when conditions warrant. The fX16 Fortress used like this has never dragged although when launched from the tender it rarely sits flat on the bottom, always at an angle to it, which gives rise to unfounded concern when I dive on it. We find fork moor to be a very successful method in the common Mediterranean situation of heavy gusts coming off high cliffs, or down adjacent valleys, maybe at 90 degree variation. I also believe that tandem anchoring is vastly overrated and hope to prove that it is technically flawed in the near future.

VYV I for one would be very interested in any experiment of tandem anchors, especially if it involved backing them as you lay them. Something I have not managed to do successfully
Is back them, possibly I needed a much longer chain between them.
Has I said I done a few experiments in the pass, but only in good weather situation and each time it's seen to work with one in and one bitting but never with both in.

There is Another way to look at this is, even if only one goes in and then for some reason at a later time, it started to drag having two anchors in tandem would slow the dragging down enough to give them a change to bite again, would you not say so.
After saying that, I too am in favor of fork anchors if I had to lay out two.

 

[Neeves]

Or they wanted nice shiny new stuff. Or they were convinced by lurid stories about older designs of anchor. Or ...

Surely we are all not that gullible?

edit there is a consistency in the posts suggesting that members here are pretty happy to have changed. close edit

Jonathan

 

[JumbleDuck]

Surely we are all not that gullible?

Not all, perhaps not even many, but from what I read a lot of people buy newer anchors for peace of mind and not to solve an established problem. As, to be honest, I did when I upgraded from a 20 lb CQR which had never given me problems to a 25 lb CQR which has also never given me problems.

there is a consistency in the posts suggesting that members here are pretty happy to have changed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-selection_bias

 

[GHA]

Not all, perhaps not even many, but from what I read a lot of people buy newer anchors for peace of mind and not to solve an established problem. As, to be honest, I did when I upgraded from a 20 lb CQR which had never given me problems to a 25 lb CQR which has also never given me problems.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-selection_bias

Might apply to some but long term cruisers don't seem to suffer from anything like that. If it works it works, any failings in a bit of kit will be shared in detail without any prompting at happy hour. Along with stuff which actually works.

edit there is a consistency in the posts suggesting that members here are pretty happy to have changed. close edit

I would say that is generally true among cruisers - agree?

Bearing in mind the large variety of seabeds & weather systems etc encountered.

 

[Robin]

Surely we are all not that gullible?

edit there is a consistency in the posts suggesting that members here are pretty happy to have changed. close edit

Jonathan

I Was very wary about my very first Delta, having sold a boat with my trusted genuine 45lb CQR. The boat that replaced it was bigger, up from 33 to 41 foot and came with a 35lb Delta. Actually the previous owners initially gave me a choice of having that or a 35lb CQR, but then changed their mind and kept that CQR themselves instead. After 10 years with the inherited Delta, my allegiance had switched and I preferred it to the earlier CQRs genuine or copies and Danforths, genuine or lookalikes that I had used over a succession of boats.That delta at 35lb was probably a size down from optimum on the 41 footer but it always set first time and never dragged once in my ownership and 20,000 miles of cruising. P.O.s told me it had not dragged for them in a 3 year Med cruise prior to our purchase either ( but that is hearsay of course). We inherited a bright polished Stainless Steel 33lb Lewmar Claw with our present boat but I had no experience of them and was intending upgrading all the inherited anchoring gear anyway, As I have said in earlier replies we put a 45lb Delta on 150ft of 3/8 (10mm) HT chain in place of the inherited 33lb claw and 30ft of chain with 150ft of nylon warp . The Delta is the most common anchor amongst our local boats that cruise the same areas as us and at 45lbs is a size up from what I was very happy with on a bigger 41 footer before, versus our now 36 footer. We also carry a Fortress FX-11 with 20ft of chain and 150ft of nylon as a kedge/spare I have the 33lb S/S claw for sale.


So whilst I don't doubt that the Newgen stuff is very good I had no bad experiences with older designs to kick start me towards changing to newgen (yet )and whilst looking at endless pics (from often poorly set anchors) in dodgy Med bottoms is very interesting it will not change my thoughts unless and until I personally hit a problem in anchorages where I cruise I fully understand others have solved their personal anchoring difficulties with a switch to newgens,but that is them not me. Change for change's sake is not my philosophy, I'm too old, crotchety and broke! .

 

[JumbleDuck]

So whilst I don't doubt that the Newgen stuff is very good I had no bad experiences with older designs to kick start me towards changing to newgen (yet )and whilst looking at endless pics (from often poorly set anchors) in dodgy Med bottoms is very interesting it will not change my thoughts unless and until I personally hit a problem in anchorages where I cruise I fully understand others have solved their personal anchoring difficulties with a switch to newgens,but that is them not me. Change for change's sake is not my philosophy, I'm too old, crotchety and broke! .

Are you reading my mind?

+1, every word. There's nothing wrong with "good enough".

 

[LadyInBed]

Jonathan you appear to have spent a lot of time looking into which is the best anchor but I and probably a lot of others don't have very deep pockets, so price / performance has considerable sway.
As much as we would all like the best, we go for the best we can afford.

 

[Sybarite]

One notable anchor you missed is the Fob Rock whose performance is close to that of the Rocna or the Spade.

See the attached illustrated comparative tests : http://www.stfeurope.com/pdf/Voile-Magazine-2012.pdf

 

[Delfin]

We finally got our 80kg Ultra to get in a position to drag, even though the winds were very light. After anchoring for a few days in a slot between two islands, the tide changes coupled with the very light winds wrapped the chain around the fluke so that when I raised it the anchor came up upside down, shank down. I really didn't think this possible, and I don't think a simpler profile like a Rocna or Manson would have become similarly tangled. Quite surprised me, but other than that, the Ultra is phenomenal for holding.

The lesson I learned from this experience is that even though this 'diving' design will simply dig in when you tug on it, you should still set it into the sea bed by applying enough reverse (after allowing it to settle for a while) that you bury the fluke edges. I don't know if I could replicate this tangle ever again, but I don't really want to find out.

To sort it out, I had to lower it to the seabed, and rotate around for a bit until it untangled itself.

 

[Neeves]

Now I'm going to break that rule and mention brands.

Supporting Jumble Duck and Robin, if you look in the eastern Med, Bugels are very common, western Med, Brittanys in the UK and anywhere in the Med Delta, CQR and Bruce are very popular. In N America, where most modern anchors are imported (but available off the shelves in West Marine) Danforth and Fortress are popular as are those stalwarts, CQR, Bruce and Delta. Here in Oz, no Bugels nor fluke types but lots of CQRs, Deltas and Bruces (in all cases many of these are copies, as they are anywhere in the world).

This is a quick summary of regional differences looking at yachts in a marina or on the hard in a boat yard. Someone will say - yachts in a marina or boat yard are not typical - you need look at the long term cruisers - but I have to ask where do long term cruisers keep their yachts when they are not actually cruising - and its a bit arrogant to think liveaboards are 'different' and have a 'different' or better analysis of a problem.

Those that have modern anchors have the same regional variation as the older styles - if the local chandlers stocks a specific brand of modern anchor - that is what you see most of in the local boatyard or marina.

But the regional variation lacks logic, except that they are avaiable and maybe cheap - which suggests people choose anchors on convenient access not how good they are - or they are all equally good (i'd support this last comment - with some minor comment on 'peripheral' seabed types).

But the market for modern anchors is huge, most yachts simply do not have one. Or the market for Fortress or Bugels is huge - they are perfectly acceptable in America or eastern Med, respectively, so they ought to be equally acceptable (were they available with the same financial advantage/constraint) in other locations.

It is interesting that the plethora of images of anchors primarily show poorly set anchors, which possibly reflects poor techniques (rather than poor anchors) and contradicts the support that both Robin and Jumble Duck's give for these very same models. Interestingly there are very few images of modern anchors - they are simply not used (or not enough that they appear frequently in images).

It does not strike from the posts in this thread - or not enough make the comment - but modern anchors are much more forgiving of poor technique than the pre-modern models. It might be a good way to set a CQR, deploy and have a cup of tea as it settles - but its not much use if its blowing 30 knots or you are dog tired. Similarly most modern anchors set on first deployment, it would be difficult to go back to trying to set a Delta on the basis of multiple attempts.

Owners of modern anchors are universally pleased to have changed from a pre-modern model and so far not one has suggested they would go back (though I note a few have kept their pre-modern anchor as spare (is this contradictory or economy?). The 'hype' surrounding the modern anchors appears to be supported by many years of use and apart from a few instances of trouble, clogged flukes seems the main culprit, modern anchors are categorically deemed, by those who use them, as reliable, dependable, better than the previous anchor, and a thus a good investment.

What I do find odd - if you cruise (away from home waters) you surely have more than one anchor? Yachts when sold new have one anchor, here the default choice is a Delta, so if you are to cruise these yachts why, when you buy the second anchor, do you not buy a modern model, stick it on the bow and keep the Delta, hidden, as a spare. This suggests that possibly many people cruise using, carrying, only one anchor?

Jonathan

 

[geem]

I don't know anybody who cruises with only one anchor. Most have two or three. I know one guy with 7 anchors but he is used to sitting out hurricanes in the Bahamas in the mangroves where his anchors are used to hook into the mangrove roots

 

[Neeves]

I don't know anybody who cruises with only one anchor. Most have two or three. I know one guy with 7 anchors but he is used to sitting out hurricanes in the Bahamas in the mangroves where his anchors are used to hook into the mangrove roots

Sadly I know a few who cruise with only one anchor. But if you replace an anchor (pre modern) with what you consider a better one (modern) I'm not sure of the logic in keeping the one that has been retired, unless there are a lot of parsimonious cruisers about.

If we go for months, like 5 months - we would carry 4 primary anchors - all of which fit my modern definition.

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

One notable anchor you missed is the Fob Rock whose performance is close to that of the Rocna or the Spade.

See the attached illustrated comparative tests : http://www.stfeurope.com/pdf/Voile-Magazine-2012.pdf

Omitted because I simply do not know it and no-one else has mentioned it, others I've actually tested. I like first hand user comment. Voile know what they are doing - but it simply does not appear in other tests. I do have a rather myopic and restricted view - being based in Australia - so more than happy when someone introduces something new, to me.

Another I missed, and have not tested and only seen in Auckland, The Boss. Like the Vulcan and Knox too few user comments to make sensible judgement.

Jonathan

 

[Robin]

Now I'm going to break that rule and mention brands.

Supporting Jumble Duck and Robin, if you look in the eastern Med, Bugels are very common, western Med, Brittanys in the UK and anywhere in the Med Delta, CQR and Bruce are very popular. In N America, where most modern anchors are imported (but available off the shelves in West Marine) Danforth and Fortress are popular as are those stalwarts, CQR, Bruce and Delta. Here in Oz, no Bugels nor fluke types but lots of CQRs, Deltas and Bruces (in all cases many of these are copies, as they are anywhere in the world).

This is a quick summary of regional differences looking at yachts in a marina or on the hard in a boat yard. Someone will say - yachts in a marina or boat yard are not typical - you need look at the long term cruisers - but I have to ask where do long term cruisers keep their yachts when they are not actually cruising - and its a bit arrogant to think liveaboards are 'different' and have a 'different' or better analysis of a problem.

Those that have modern anchors have the same regional variation as the older styles - if the local chandlers stocks a specific brand of modern anchor - that is what you see most of in the local boatyard or marina.

But the regional variation lacks logic, except that they are avaiable and maybe cheap - which suggests people choose anchors on convenient access not how good they are - or they are all equally good (i'd support this last comment - with some minor comment on 'peripheral' seabed types).

But the market for modern anchors is huge, most yachts simply do not have one. Or the market for Fortress or Bugels is huge - they are perfectly acceptable in America or eastern Med, respectively, so they ought to be equally acceptable (were they available with the same financial advantage/constraint) in other locations.

It is interesting that the plethora of images of anchors primarily show poorly set anchors, which possibly reflects poor techniques (rather than poor anchors) and contradicts the support that both Robin and Jumble Duck's give for these very same models. Interestingly there are very few images of modern anchors - they are simply not used (or not enough that they appear frequently in images).

It does not strike from the posts in this thread - or not enough make the comment - but modern anchors are much more forgiving of poor technique than the pre-modern models. It might be a good way to set a CQR, deploy and have a cup of tea as it settles - but its not much use if its blowing 30 knots or you are dog tired. Similarly most modern anchors set on first deployment, it would be difficult to go back to trying to set a Delta on the basis of multiple attempts.

Owners of modern anchors are universally pleased to have changed from a pre-modern model and so far not one has suggested they would go back (though I note a few have kept their pre-modern anchor as spare (is this contradictory or economy?). The 'hype' surrounding the modern anchors appears to be supported by many years of use and apart from a few instances of trouble, clogged flukes seems the main culprit, modern anchors are categorically deemed, by those who use them, as reliable, dependable, better than the previous anchor, and a thus a good investment.

What I do find odd - if you cruise (away from home waters) you surely have more than one anchor? Yachts when sold new have one anchor, here the default choice is a Delta, so if you are to cruise these yachts why, when you buy the second anchor, do you not buy a modern model, stick it on the bow and keep the Delta, hidden, as a spare. This suggests that possibly many people cruise using, carrying, only one anchor?

Jonathan

We are not 'off cruising' these days,by the definition of many on here, but are cruising a 'new to us' area from our new home base. We have just the Delta rigged on the single bow roller and a Fortress stowed in it's carry case in a deck locker but quickly available to use. The Dock Queen polished S/S Claw I mentioned earlier is currently for sale as its size (not weight) will not conveniently stow on deck or below.. As and when it is sold I will buy something of smaller dimensions that will fit in a deck locker, maybe a smaller weight Rocna or similar if it will fit on the basis that if they really are as good as the hype suggests, then going one size smaller for the boat size will be fine, especially as a spare come kedge come backup OR I will mount a bigger Fortress on a purpose made pulpit hanging bracket I hope that is clear as describing my thinking gets harder this time of night!

 

[sailaboutvic]

Hi Jonathan
Firstly, it is very rare to find boats with a CQR in the MED no matter what the small portion of people says here, CQR are not popular with cruisers or it's seen by most people these days,
You are more likely to see a CQR holding bar doors open,
You just need to take a look at what people have on their bow.


Delta anchor.
I think the reason you find so many boats with delta anchor is because nearly every new boat now comes with a Delta and They are priced very well, I have to say as a rule they hold petty well too.

So why did I change my Delta to a Rocna if it holds ok?

I wanted a one size bigger anchor, one with better holding power,
The delta had let me down a few times when there was no reason to,
My first choice was a Manson, but I could'nt get one for no love or money where I was at the time unless I paid some stupid price to have it delivered,
So I went for the next one that I felt was just has good, the Rocna 20kgs and I am very happy with it , not because It's has the name Rocna, but because it set quickly on most grounds and holds well and in our case as we anchor for over 250 days in a year and at times on open coast that's what we need,

The cost of it doesn't come into it, the safely of our boat is much more important than money,
If I couldn't afford a good anchor to keep me safe than it's time to give up sailing.
So now I have three anchors, 20 kg Rocna an FX23 fortress 6.8 kg and the Delta 16 kgs.
The delta has never moved since we put it in the locker.

We have used the Rocna and Fortress together at times has a fork system not so much because the Rocna wouldn't hold on its own more as an insurance it the wind is forecasted over 30 kts. I like to sleep at night.
It takes me just a few minutes to set the fortress , off the bow or in the dinghy,
It's no hardship.
There have been times that people dinghy over and question why we are using two anchors.
There have been times that the same people have dragged and cause mayhem in the anchorages.

 

[Neeves]

Sailaboutvic

I have my own images of yachts in marinas (and boat yards) from Izmir to Barcelona and about 20 marinas in between, they all sport yachts with CQRs, genuine or otherwise, many of the yachts are foreign flagged (ignoring those from Delaware) UK, France Germany even Australia.

I only report what I see.

Jonathan

 

[sailaboutvic]

Sailaboutvic

I have my own images of yachts in marinas (and boat yards) from Izmir to Barcelona and about 20 marinas in between, they all sport yachts with CQRs, genuine or otherwise, many of the yachts are foreign flagged (ignoring those from Delaware) UK, France Germany even Australia.

I only report what I see.

Jonathan

That may be so ,
I not suggesting there are no boats with a CQR,
but for every CQR there are dozens and Dozens with an different anchor ,
I am also reporting what I see in the Med now .

 

[ribrage]

Omitted because I simply do not know it and no-one else has mentioned it, others I've actually tested. I like first hand user comment. Voile know what they are doing - but it simply does not appear in other tests. I do have a rather myopic and restricted view - being based in Australia - so more than happy when someone introduces something new, to me.

Another I missed, and have not tested and only seen in Auckland, The Boss. Like the Vulcan and Knox too few user comments to make sensible judgement.

Jonathan

There are some reviews on the web for Mansons Boss anchor , we did some research before replacing a cracked CQR with a new anchor , we were quite restricted on fitment without making major changes to our fore deck and bow roller as we have a twin anchor set up and the anchors are staggered on separate bow rollers, we were happy to try the Boss, having used it for half the summer ,it was a good decision , sets quick , holds well , fits in the space of the old CQR pretty well - happy customer we hadn't had massive issues with our CQR (apart from the cracked shank), we still have one at the bow as you can see in the picture , we also carry a BIG old fishermans anchor which we used a few times in Ibiza and a fortress FX 55 that we used in San Javier Mar menor as a forked set up in a blow , like others have said , relying on one make and one model isn't a great idea, better to have options.