Dragging of anchors

[dgadee]

I have a Vulcan. It may have been the first in the UK (so Ardfern told me) bought because it fitted better than the Rocna (which was too long in the shank for my windlass location). I went for it partly so that I could drop to 15kg from the 20kg (real) Bruce so that I could manhandle it into the locker rather than leave it protruding out the bow.

The first time I used it it dragged three times - each time coming up with a ball of kelp - in Scalpay north harbour, Outer Hebrides. My heart sank. However, every time after that (including moving location in Scalpay) there has been no problem - it seems to grab the ground like a magnet and doesn't move at all when getting set. I know this because I have anchored in some tight places.

Very happy with the ease of manipulation, too. Not too difficult to maneuver through the pulpit.

This is the first season with an electric windlass and very happy with that, too. I have deck push switches but prefer the wireless control since I am usually single handed.

 

[Colvic Watson]

We used to drag all the time, sometimes setting half a dozen times with our old Danforth. We bought a Kobra four years ago and it has been utterly reliable. A superb anchor and reasonably priced. It takes some kit to anchor a 13 boat solid to the seabed, big vote for the Kobra set maybe 30 nights a year.

 

[Neeves]

We used to drag all the time, sometimes setting half a dozen times with our old Danforth. We bought a Kobra four years ago and it has been utterly reliable. A superb anchor and reasonably priced. It takes some kit to anchor a 13 boat solid to the seabed, big vote for the Kobra set maybe 30 nights a year.

I do not want to be picky - but was that a genuine Danforth. I have no idea if copies are as good - but I hate to see a brand maligned if was actually a copy.

Jonathan

 

[adwuk]

We have recently switched from a 35lb CQR to 20kg Spade, and the difference is significant. With the CQR we always had to be careful about allowing it time to dig in before really testing it with a burst of reverse. Too hasty and it always dragged. Even then, about 50% of the time, it wouldn't hold and so it was a case of lift and reset mainly because we were out of our planned position at this stage (e.g. too close to the shore or other boats). Since we have had the Spade, we have taken a similar approach to dropping, but it bites almost instantly and I can reverse as hard as I like immediately and see static transits! It certainly inspires confidence, and to date, it has not dragged once.

The old CQR will be going on an auction site at some stage, and I am starting to wonder what to do about our kedge - which is a smaller 20lb CQR. I will probably replace it with a modern design, or possibly a fortress. Either way, hopefully something that can store flat for easier storage (which rules out the roll bar types I think).

I don't worship in any particular anchor design church, and I certainly haven't missed the point that the boat has managed the first 40 years of its life with the CQR, but the world moves on, and hopefully things improve. In this case for me, and many others who have posted, it seems that they have.

 

[Sybarite]

{I'll guess that that is because most boats in the Med are newish}

I would agree there are a lot of newish boats In the Med, each year more and more , we can thank the charter market for that , but they're also a lot of old once too , I would also say you are more likely to see a CQR on a very older type boat.
That's not to say older sailor think they are better , or I would have one .

{ a new CQR costs more than a new Spade }

I couldn't say,
I have no idea what a new CQR cost, but my 20kgs Rocna cost me 500 euros two years ago.
I brought the Rocna not because of the name, I spend years talking to people about their anchors and did a lot of research , my first choice would had been a Manson as I have said.


{ because there is not, even if people wanted them, the good supply of cheap second hand CQRs that there is in the UK.}

There was three up for sale last winter in Lefkas, when we left in March they were still up for sale, each asking 25 euros.
The year before in Licata again there were some for sale one in the end was given to the bar which was painted and used out side, another left on the pontoon.

Maybe if there such a big demand for them back home in the UK I might starting buying them up and sending them back .
I could do with a way of funding my cruising .

Here's what the Voile Magazine comparitive test (2012) said about the CQR :

"Three anchors which we intended to test were finally excluded from the comparison because the tests were not providing clear information.

The antique (and very expensive **) CQR by Lewmar, used for pleasure boating since the 1940's "hooked" sometimes but also unhooked, often definitively when it was a question of the pull being at an angle. It was handicapped by the hinge so that when the anchor was on its side, the point was held above the level of the sand."

**Prices :

CQR 16.5kg €1168
Rocna 15kg €349
Fob Rock 16kg €361
Spade 15kg €520

It's ironic that the "worst" anchor is more than twice the cost of the best. Who would buy one now? In fairness though the CQR has a good reputation in soft mud.

 

[vyv_cox]

But - how often does this need to be said? - for many people a suitable sized and properly used older style of anchor is good enough.

But - how do you measure 'good enough'? Good enough for when I want to anchor on hard sand? Or if the wind increases above x knots and the anchor drags? Or the tide turns and the anchor trips out? The one advantage of NG anchors that very few dispute is that they are more versatile and reliable when it comes to these, and other, particular properties. If people only ever anchor in the same conditions, on the same seabed, and watch the boat around when the tide turns, fair enough, keep your CQR. Otherwise, I don't agree that 'good enough' is good enough.

 

[JumbleDuck]

But - how do you measure 'good enough'?

If your anchor doesn't cause you any problems, its good enough. If it does cause you problems then it's not good enough. A Rocna which is good enough for use in the Mediterranean summer might not be good enough for a Caribbean hurricane season.

Like almost everything else on a boat, the adequacy of an anchors depends on the context within which its used. I carry a rond anchor on my Hunter 490, because there are occasions when that's by far the best solution for me.

 

[westernman]

One of the nice things about the CQR is that it invariably stows itself on my bow roller the right way.

Mine does not. Almost every time.

 

[LadyInBed]

We have recently switched from a 35lb CQR to 20kg Spade, and the difference is significant.

It would be, 20kg is about 44lbs!

 

[JumbleDuck]

It would be, 20kg is about 44lbs!

It's interesting that most people who report making a swap generally seem to keep the same weight, unless they are going from Danforth to Fortress.

 

[adwuk]

It would be, 20kg is about 44lbs!

Aware of that point too! The interesting thing is that 20kg was the size recommended by Spade for our boat (Nic 35). The issue was that (using JD's definition) the CQR wasn't "good enough", although Lewmar say that the 35lb CQR is the right size. So I could have spent £840 on a 20kg CQR... but I didn't!

 

[cindersailor]

I replaced my 10 Kg Delta with a 12 Kg Vulcan this season. My boat is 27 ft and about 3 tons. Various reasons for choosing the Vulcan over a standard Rocna or Supreme including ease of passing through my boat's rather restricted pulpit. It looks very well made and its ability to roll over to the point-down setting attitude is very impressive; on a hard surface it is very difficult to sit it in any position where it doesn't naturally roll over, even without a pull on the chain. I had lost confidence in the Delta after a couple of dragging incidents. One was in what I concluded was very soft sand (David Balfour's Bay on Mull) in which it simply would not hold, and another where a thin layer of weed sat over hard sand/gravel (Bay of Flies, Loch Sunart) and the delta would not engage with the bottom before it dragged so far that it became clogged with weed, I tried this several times without success. So far (about a dozen nights) the Vulcan has set and held first time every time. It has required a change in anchoring technique as it hardly moves from where it is dropped and no allowance needs to be made for a 'setting drag' as was generally required with the delta. As an experiment I dropped the Vulcan with 30 M of chain in about 6 M of water and then reversed back at full revs without any attempt at a gentle preliminary set. It set with a bang and almost had the cleat out of the deck! This was in hard sand, but it is the same in mud. I am slowly developing confidence in it and now always set with a final burst at full reverse revs which has yet to budge it. So overall I'm very happy.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Aware of that point too! The interesting thing is that 20kg was the size recommended by Spade for our boat (Nic 35). The issue was that (using JD's definition) the CQR wasn't "good enough", although Lewmar say that the 35lb CQR is the right size. So I could have spent £840 on a 20kg CQR... but I didn't!

I have never been quite convinced about CQR sizing charts, which is why I went from 20 lb (the recommended size) to 25 lb on my boat. You could probably have picked up a 45 lb CQR for fifty quid or so, second hand ...

 

[GHA]

It would be, 20kg is about 44lbs!

I did similar, from 35lb cqr to 20Kg rocna. It would be interesting to try a cqr of the exact same weight, but hard to imagine it would account for the huge difference. From rumble rumble will it dig to bang, straight in. With dragging a once in a log book occurrence instead of regular.

 

[vyv_cox]

N

If your anchor doesn't cause you any problems, its good enough. If it does cause you problems then it's not good enough. A Rocna which is good enough for use in the Mediterranean summer might not be good enough for a Caribbean hurricane season.

So you don't know until you drag onto the rocks in the middle of the night whether it's good enough? Sorry, not good enough for me, I prefer to choose an anchor that I know will hold when the wind exceeds a certain level and the bottom may be less than perfect.

 

[RobbieW]

So you don't know until you drag onto the rocks in the middle of the night whether it's good enough? Sorry, not good enough for me, I prefer to choose an anchor that I know will hold when the wind exceeds a certain level and the bottom may be less than perfect.

..or will reset if the wind changes, or a thunderstorm blows through with winds going through 360 degrees and from 5 to 45 knots.

 

[JumbleDuck]

So you don't know until you drag onto the rocks in the middle of the night whether it's good enough? Sorry, not good enough for me, I prefer to choose an anchor that I know will hold when the wind exceeds a certain level and the bottom may be less than perfect.

With respect, Vyv, your position appears to be exactly the same as mine. We are both confident, based on experience, that our anchors will hold in all the places and conditions we are likely to encounter. After all, if you didn't think your anchor was good enough, you'd buy a bigger one, wouldn't you?

 

[JumbleDuck]

..or will reset if the wind changes, or a thunderstorm blows through with winds going through 360 degrees and from 5 to 45 knots.

Been there, done that, anchor held.

 

[Robin]

Been there, done that, anchor held.

Me too, Local (French) newspaper next day described it as a 'mini-tornado' that swept through and completely flattened a local tourist camp site on the island (Isle D'Houat) that we were anchored off. Lots of boats in the same anchorage did drag, some onto the beach, but we stayed firmly put on our 35lb Delta with an all chain rode at 6:1 ( our standard overnight ratio) andwith our usual 20 ft nylon snubber line attached with a rubber stretchy dog-bone mooring compensator wound into in it for anti-snatch .

 

[Robin]

N

So you don't know until you drag onto the rocks in the middle of the night whether it's good enough? Sorry, not good enough for me, I prefer to choose an anchor that I know will hold when the wind exceeds a certain level and the bottom may be less than perfect.

See my other reply (#99) but with respect Vyv, nor do you know either until such an occasion arises, until such time however we trust in what we know has worked fine before. I have no doubt that if we had room for a 10 ton Rocna it would probably hold in anything the planet hurled at us, but even that, in truth, is speculation because probably something else would become the weakest point in the setup like perhaps the chain or deck cleat breaking!,