Does the Age of a GRP sailing boat Matter

[Sea badger]

Hello

I'm looking for "a boat for life" what I mean by this is that I would like to buy a boat that suits my needs now and in the future. This has led me down a path of looking at boats around £35000. I.E. Westerly Conway and the like.

On the assumption that my analysis of my boat requirements are correct, I have one nagging thought remaining before I commit to purchasing such a boat is this:-

I am 35 years old and would like to use the boat regularly in all seasons, sort trips and long trips. These types of solid boats were made around the late 70's and early 80's. This puts their age around 29 years. Bearing in mind my want of a boat for life and say I expect to be still sailing well into my sixties, is it realistic to expect the boat to be structurally sound when its 60 years old? Assuming that I look after it during that time. Or will I be faced with ever increasing costs of keeping it in a functional state?

I'm not a materials engineer, but I do know that most things degrade overtime.

Not sure that there is an answer to my question but any thoughts would be welcome.

 

[EuanMcKenzie]

Interesting quandry that i considered myself when I went boat hunting. I was disappointed with what I thought should be really good sound boats and surprised with how good others i hadn't thought of were. I had a budget of circa £30k so same ballpark.

I ended up buying a Hallberg Rassy Rasmus which i had never heard of till I found it.

Up side / down side

I thought i wanted a moody 33 but when i saw the state of some of them internally It put me off - I didn't like the blue plastic toilet

My boat is wooden internally and made of good materials so is relatively timeless.

It has its original engine which won't last forever - a big bill at some point

It didn't have osmosis - some do but so do boats much newer - 80's boats seem more prone. There is a nice nicholson 38 for sale near me with a clean hull yet no one seems to want it.

My boat was laid up each winter and privately owned all its life. Its therefore led a fairly easy life and has had its hull dried out each winter. Osmosis seems more prevalent on the south coast where the water is warmer and boats have a longer season.

I asked surveyor re this and his comment was - a boat has never sunk with osmosis and at the end of the day its repairable at a cost. There are plenty of 1960s boats around and they arn't going away.

My thoughts are this:

Buy a well built overengineered older boat but don't decide what it will be till you find it. Think of the things you will love / hate in a few years time and decide if its for you in that context.

Try and buy a boat that you could sell on if you get sick of it. Forever is long time.

The condition rather than age of a boat seems more important. an older boat that has been loved and cherished will be available within you budget and is probably a better long term buy than a 15 year old Bavaria.

A sigma 33 needs its standing rigging changed every five years as do a lot of higher stressed modern rigs. Thats a lot of wire and cost and the osmosis bill you might get may not be the biggest you will face! You may need to re-engine it. If you're into gizmos they cost a fortune and die young also

To answer your question, there is no reason a GRP boat shouldn't last that long - there is not a scrap yard full of old GRP boats that I know of - they all seem to keep getting recycled in various states and keep on going.

I plan on keeping mine a while yet and I havn't thought of it in terms of having finite life. not sure its an issue worth worrying about!

Cabatach

 

[Cliveshep]

I have a 40 yr old Broom Ocean, ex hire. She's had a hard life going by the scars but then she's previously knocked about (literally) on both Thames and Broads for 35 of those years in the hands of know-nothing numpties.

She's built like a brick outhouse, very very solid indeed. Yes, she's got osmosis, or at least 4 blisters on the hull, but she's never been out of the water apart from scrubs/antifoul for all of those years according to the yard who owned her previously so she's not doing so badly.

She's not the first 40 yr old I've owned, and they all have one thing in common, they were over-engineered because at the time no-one really knew how long resin-glass boats would last so they overdid the strength characteristics. Modern boats are far lighter in construction, I've been on modern boats where light shows through the grp hatches for example as they are so thin and the decks/coach roofs flex when you walk on them. Scary!

From my experience, if it's still sound and afloat, and you like it, and the price is right age is no barrier.

 

[yoda]

Age old boats

There are quite a lot of boats knocking on the door of 50 and there is no reason to think they won't go on for a long time yet. The hull is probably not the issue, the work will come from windows, hatches, sandwich construction, joints etc. A good solid boat with normal maintenance will last the course. You could buy a much younger boat and have many more problems. My Pioneer is a youngster at 43 and has loads of life leftin the hull but inevitably things like the mast will need to be replaced as time marches on. Talk to a decent surveyor before you even look for a boat to get a good idea of what to look for and then be picky about the survey to see how well it has been looked after.

Yoda

 

[Abestea]

You are the same age now as i was when i first bought my boat and i kind of understand where you are coming from. I have to agree with Euan & Cliveshep, GRP should last a lifetime and beyond with repairs here and there. I think the biggest consideration is whether you want to get a boat that requires a lot of work to it or buy a boat that is in good condition throughout. Its the peripherals that can be the fun/frustrating/expensive part if they need replaced.

But i also think that you cant really decide on a boat for life. Even after three years of boat ownership i realise that one day i will want something different. I have learned what i like and dont like about my boat. Luckily more likes so far but i know that my preferences will change as i get older. The sigma 33 may be not as comfortable when i am nearly 60.

Anyway, you asked about GRP and i can only say that my boat is from 1982 and sails well and the hull is in pretty good condition, apart from some cracked gel coat.

 

[David_Jersey]

I would be interested in the answer - given mine is now 39 years old

Just like OP I bought mine as a "keeper". She was 35 years old when I bought her. The plan was to buy something that I could tell was fundamentally very sound, but require a rolling refurb and refit over a year or 2. But life has a habit of intervening in plans ........so the great refit project only really started in earnest earlier this year.

I won't claim to be an expert on old GRP boats -but what I have learnt over the years (and not just from ownership of this boat) is that age does matter, not so much on the GRP hull itself (mines half an inch thick - on the topsides ) but for everything that attaches to it / the deck and often where it attaches to or through it - from bulkheads to furniture to rigging to cleats to masts to engines to the deck itself etc etc. etc. Stuff does wear out with age - and over the years not all maintanence is done, or is not done with a view to the longterm. And with older boats often a large number of PO's weilding a screwdriver. or a hammer making repairs and "improvements"..........with varying skill levels and budgets for maintanence. Of course once a boat gets into the older class she usually also moves into the DIY class rather than the yard maintained.

Not to say that I needed to address all of these in my case, but this was primarily because the last PO had addressed a couple of the major known time related issues (mast support post and aft bulkhead replacement) and done so very well, at no small cost - leaving me the stuff within my capabilities. slowly ............of course if you do find an older boat that has been genuinely kept in or refurbed to A1 condition then that will only require a large cheque

Not meant to put you off , buy a well designed, well built boat, with the weaknesses known..........and if spending money to then make her a keeper -keep her long term.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Contact West System Epoxy, Google it. the Gudgeon Brothers pioneered engineering with epoxy resins and have established all sorts of engineering details around the laminates made from Epoxy. Their web site has loads of useful information and a very active Epoxy building community.

I am sure if you dropped them an Email query their Technical Department would be more than happy to assist with your query.

My boat is GRP and is 36 years old. Well laid up and heavier than most. Wooden interior. When I bought it I spent £10 grand replacing worn out stuff like rigging, engine mounts, prop shafts, couplings and fuel lines. The internals are wood and have survived pretty well.

It had already been rewired professionally so that was OK. Most of my windows will need to be recaulked / sealed again but its not hard to do.

I think the advice about looking around is good. Ask for boat schedules from Brokers, go and see the boats with torch in hand and just look. If something catches your eye look up the boat tests in PBO and Yachting Monthly - you would be surprised at what's been test sailed. Look the boat up on Google - there are loads of Owners Clubs and of course ask here.

I found the test reports and owners clubs very useful.

 

[Sandyman]

Hello

I'm looking for "a boat for life" what I mean by this is that I would like to buy a boat that suits my needs now and in the future. This has led me down a path of looking at boats around £35000. I.E. Westerly Conway and the like.

On the assumption that my analysis of my boat requirements are correct, I have one nagging thought remaining before I commit to purchasing such a boat is this:-

I am 35 years old and would like to use the boat regularly in all seasons, sort trips and long trips. These types of solid boats were made around the late 70's and early 80's. This puts their age around 29 years. Bearing in mind my want of a boat for life and say I expect to be still sailing well into my sixties, is it realistic to expect the boat to be structurally sound when its 60 years old? Assuming that I look after it during that time. Or will I be faced with ever increasing costs of keeping it in a functional state?

I'm not a materials engineer, but I do know that most things degrade overtime.

Not sure that there is an answer to my question but any thoughts would be welcome.

No matter what boat you buy, or what material it is made out of, a lot will depend on what you intend to do with it & where you intend to take it. Boats need constant & regular maintenance so unless you have the skills and time to do your own maintenance then you will need to budget accordingly.
The one thing I dont understand from your posting is why at your age you would want to purchase, as you put it, ''a boat for life'' ???? If you could explain your reasoning then more concise advise maybe forthcoming.

 

[William_H]

Old boats

As said polyester resin in fiberglass matrix will last forever. It is the other materials that will fail. My boat is 30 years old I worry about wooden furniture than will rot. I have replaced and repaired Aluminium support structure under the cockpit that went to dust.
There has often been requests for help on this forum re foam or balso wood deck core that becomes water logged and sags.
And of course I reckon that boat design has improved a lot in the last 30 years but you can be the judge of that.
Certainly we once had a thriving boat building industry here in west oz but it has all gone. Mainly because the rush of f/g boats that were built are still going strong and don't have to be replaced. good luck olewill

 

[BrianH]

I'm looking for "a boat for life" what I mean by this is that I would like to buy a boat that suits my needs now and in the future.
Not sure that there is an answer to my question but any thoughts would be welcome.

I think you are far too young to make that first statement. Irrespective of how old your boat becomes, YOU will change and so will your circumstances hence interests and priorities.

I was an enthusiastic, performance-orientated, every week racer in my youth. I moved abroad and my sailing was dictated by my location and so I became more cruising oriented, but I still wanted a good sailing performance and willing to sacrifice on accommodation.

Then, in my 70s, I bought a relatively shoal-draft, roomy motor-sailor with still a good turn of speed under sail, to suit my present cruising grounds of the northern Adriatic - well, you did write "a boat for life".

She was old (24 years) and needed some changes but sound. But you will have to be prepared to slowly fix a lot of minor points, especially such things as window seals. Yesterday was a series of heavy storms here in Italy and I noticed that the doghouse roof was dripping water. Today I am going to have to take the mainsheet track off to reseal the seating under it where I suspect the water is getting in. All deck fittings have had to be resealed as the original silicon bedding had hardened enough to be no longer watertight.

My last comment is NOT to be lured into buying a boat with a teak deck as many of the older, quality yachts have if you want "a boat for life" - you will be buying into a ticking time-bomb of cost and headaches.

Hope this helps.

 

[Poignard]

My boat was 'launched' in 1967. The grp hull [moulded by Tylers Ltd] may be a year or two older.

There is absolutely no sign of osmosis and if it appears I will treat it bit by bit with epoxy filler.

As long as nothing goes seriously wrong with the hull I don't see why the boat cannot be kept in service indefinitely. Everything else can be either repaired or replaced. The most expensive replacement would be a new mast, followed by a new engine.

 

[Maree]

I'd be much more confident of a sound 30 year old boat lasting another 30 years than I would of a new boat lasting for the next 30 years.

Mine's 25 years old now, and has a hard life with liveaboard owners and a couple of atlantic crossings. We are bit by bit giving her a "mid-life" refit. The last items we finished are a new engine, including all ancillaries, new upholstery, and previously things such as the cooker, worktops etc have been renewed. If you compare with a house, how many people keep their sofas/beds and kitchens for 25 years without changing them?

Of course the sailing hardware often needs replacing sooner - standing rigging is almost a consumable needing to be replaced at 10 year intervals, and running rigging was also replaced on her 20th birthday.

It's important to choose a boat whose structure allows her to be upgraded and maintained. We have a Westerly Discus, and the interior is timber and easy to dismantle. This makes it much easier to rewire, change engines, tanks, add heating etc. I'd be wary of any boat with interior mouldings which may require cutting up to gain access to these items.

Also check on the structure of the deck - there's nothing wrong with balsa core IF it's dry, still attached to the skin and you religiously seal all new holes (preferably using the drill hole, remove core, fill with thickened epoxy, drill again method). My boat needed a $5500 dollar repair (paid by the vendor!) after a small hole had been ignored and 1m square was delaminated and rotten. I think this is a worse risk than osmosis as a rotten deck is much harder to fix and potentially renders the boat valueless.

 

[Refueler]

The GRP hull theoretically should outlive most of us, given reasonable use and no serious mishaps.

Really it's not the GRP hull or mouldings that limit the boats life - it's the additions.

EG : My boat is mid 70's and hull is a battle tank strength. But I have under the cockpit vertical longitudinal plywood bulkheads that provide at fwd end the mount base for engine bearers and also the support along length of cockpit floor. The stbd one has rotted under the cockpit due to the locker and the tendency to have water leak it's way in. The fwd section carrying engine bearers is fine luckily. This winter - the offending section will be cut out and replaced with resin sealed new ply bulkhead.

No boat will ever be totally free of repairs, structural work in it's life. But a good hull and mouldings will be your greatest asset.

Boat for life ? Mmmmm wish I could decide a single boat would be my life's only one .. like many - I keep looking around at others and thoughts of change !

 

[srm]

Just a couple of points:

I have seen a fibreglass hull destroyed in 1 season. OK it was a lightly built kayak belonging to the university club. We used to carry a passenger astride the hull behind the paddler, or throw the hulls in the river, then board from the water. At first the aft deck flexed then sprung back, then flexed and stayed depressed. After a while it was more like fabric than grp. All the flexing resulted in micro-fractures in the resin so it probably looked like a shattered car windscreen under a microscope, but held together by the glass.

Its interesting that most of the responses above refer to old, heavily built - indeed over built hulls by modern standards. As these are so rigid I would expect them to carry on almost indefinately. As one post mentions, modern boats are far more lightly built. I would suggest that if you see evidence that the hull or deck flexes, even a little, walk away. Long hairline cracks in gel coat parallel to edges of bulkheads indicate the hull / deck panel moving against the hard edge. You will no doubt get a number of years use - but it is a weakness and can only get worse as the strength decreases and movement increases.

The other point is "a boat for life". I think that your ambitions and ideas will change over time. Personal experience - bought first yacht 1973, now on my fifth yacht and also owned an MFV for about 3 years. Each boat was bought because it suited what I expected to be doing in the future, but plans changed. My current yacht will probably be my last sailing yacht, but I am aware there may be a canal boat after that . . .

The advice I was given for a first boat, and having taught RYA courses since early 1980's pass on if asked is:
"buy a boat that you like, suits the type of sailing that you can do at the moment, and is a popular class that will be easy to sell". Reason - a few seasons sailing this boat will give you a far better idea of what you really want.

Hope this helps.

 

[nct1]

A sigma 33 needs its standing rigging changed every five years as do a lot of higher stressed modern rigs. Thats a lot of wire and cost and the osmosis bill you might get may not be the biggest you will face! You may need to re-engine it. If you're into gizmos they cost a fortune and die young also
Cabatach

Not sure where you get that information from, unless the boat has been raced hard, the rigging will last a lot longer than that, mine lasted about 15 years, with the surveyor wanting it replaced because it was more than 10 years old, not because it showed any signs of weakness.

 

[jason -and the arguenauts]

Most people focus on the hull when asked this question but a boat is a bit like a house - the really expensive bit is the fit out not the shell. And at 35 years almost anything that hasnt been replaced once or twice already will be knackered and due for replacement, let alone all the tired woodwork and cosmetics.

GRP is almost infinitely repairable and whats more relativel cheap to do so.

But the bit of your post that is unrealistic is the expectation that you will buy one boat and be happy with it for 30 years. It might just happen but it's much more likely not to. Would you keep a car for that long? Or a house?

Buy something that looks OK for the next 5 years and dont worry about the l;ong term. One thing is for sure - the long term wont be what you currently expect it to be.

 

[Sea badger]

No matter what boat you buy, or what material it is made out of, a lot will depend on what you intend to do with it & where you intend to take it. Boats need constant & regular maintenance so unless you have the skills and time to do your own maintenance then you will need to budget accordingly.
The one thing I dont understand from your posting is why at your age you would want to purchase, as you put it, ''a boat for life'' ???? If you could explain your reasoning then more concise advise maybe forthcoming.

Hi, my logic for this stance is that I want to be able to be confident that the boat I buy will (if I look after it) last. I can look for all the features that I desire with regards to hull, keel, sail plan, accommodation set up, etc. But when I've come to narrowing down the choice to the point that I can choose one to buy I just have a nagging fear that I need to take age into account. Otherwise I may end up with a boat degrading faster as it gets older and eventually spending more time maintaining than sailing.

Mind you from the mailings so far I may be wrong worrying about age and should look more to how well the boat is designed, constructed and if it's been well maintained.

I'm also thinking that it may be better to be as certain as possible that the chosen boat is what I want with regards to details and will last, so that the time and money that I put into keeping her maintained will not become an inhibitor to being able to go sailing, and force me to go through the process again by looking for a "younger boat". But once again from the mails so far I may be wrong in thinking that boat age is a major consideration

Thanks

 

[Sea badger]

Many thanks, these points are very helpful

 

[oldsaltoz]

As has been said many times in the above posts, older boats made from solid fibreglass laminate are as solid as the proverbial brick dunny, more recent craft are lighter and more flexible in their construction.

The dogs are not the old or the newer, the traps are in the mid range, when builders and designers started to realise that fibreglass was stronger and lasted longer than original estimates.

Hull and decks were still a but on the thick side but the trap was in the stiffeners in hulls and deck supports. Originally the supports were hard timber glassed over to protect them, however poly resins do not stick to timber in the long term and the glass eventually allowed moisture to penetrate the timber, rotting it and leaving only a protective layer of glass.

With the older, thicker hulls this was not a real problem, but hulls got lighter it became evident. No one uses timber much today, they just glue a bit of foam down and apply a lot more glass, it's the glass that provides the strength and the foam eventually turns to mush but no strength is lost.

Most of us would have seen or heard of a quarter toner that broke a stringer or rib or two at some time.

Keel fixing methods over the years have also had their problems, ranging from too much movement, lack of flexing in the hull to poor securing bolt and support systems. This is an area often overlooked when purchasing.

It was way back in 1938 when fibreglass was first invented and was to be used as a form of insulation, It has come a long way since then and still moving ahead today.

Looking for a boat for life:
Grab an old solid one but expect to do or have someone else do a lot of work over the years, it will last several lifetimes but only if you look after it and maintain it.

Hope this helps.

Avagoodweekend......

 

[Sea badger]

Thanks, I think I may be worrying about age when really its only a small consideration