Does size really matter

[mocruising]

Well we have reached that time in our lives that we have been planning for the past ten years!!!! The latest addition to the family is about to fly the coup and we have the money to buy the boat. The plan is to cruise for a few years. We have been looking at Hallbery Rassy's , Oyster's and Najad boats about 8 years old or so between 42 and 50 foot overall. I would welcome anybody's experience does your budget decide the size of your boat. The boat we buy must be capable of being sailed comfortably by two people, we will be looking at some mechanised sail handling. Many people (Couples) seem to favour 42' boats why is this is it down to cost of the boat plus down the line expenses or safety.

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[Rohorn]

Hi.....One needs space to establish one's own territory where one can opt out (sulk), or read a book (sulk) which accounts a lot for the attractiveness of catamarans. Like mine. To achieve this admirable situation on a monohull, one needs to go to 42 or more feet.
Cheers.....!.....R


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[SPROUTZ]

Yes, size matters. It depends on multiple parameters to be defined.
I am 57, my wife 54 and we have been sailing for the last 25 years for about 30000 miles in an excellent 33 footer. When we had to plan the purchase of a new boat 2 years ago we considered, in order to make our choice, multiple parameters like:
- Sailing program which means for us the plan to retire and live in our boat starting next year in Croatia, Greece and Turkey for 6-8 months per year.
- Comfort required on board
- Sailing capabilities of the boat taking in consideration also that our physical strength is "slightly" less than 20 years ago
- Should somebody visit us, for exemple our son, he will need (we too ) a little bit of privacy, therefore a cabin
- Should we have have enough room to store all the "stuff " like gennaker, storm sail, heavy weather jib, bicycle, 8-10 fenders, 3 anchors+ chain+cable, etc. etc
- Shall we have the money

Our final choice, after reading all the books written on the subject, reading nearly all european sailing magazines, checking and visiting second hand boats in England, Holland, France was for a new Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 43 footer, the 2 cabins version and we are extremely happy


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[jeanne]

If there are normally only two of you to crew, then the main problem you will have in a 40+ ft boat is handling it in harbours. This is where most of the damage occurs, not at sea. Imagine that it is blowing a bit, and you you look for a handy harbour for shelter. Now picture yourself trying to berth her, in weather that you don't want to be at sea, in a strange harbour, into a gap only just big enough, maybe in a a Med. stern-to mooring. Do you see yourself wanting a bigger boat at that moment?
I can only think of three reasons to have a big boat. One is the belief that they are more seaworthy, which is probably true, but a well found smaller boat is seaworthy enough for all normal ocean passages. The next is the desire to keep up unreasonably high average speeds. If you are out there to enjoy it, why must it be over as quick as possible? The last is to have cabins for 'family and friends' to visit.
I spent two comfortable years in a 33ft. yacht. We abandoned our 'schedule' after the first month, and still sailed as far as we had planned [Brazil], visiting fewer places, but staying longer; and sailing slowly, until we were losing steerage way, sometimes, rather than keeping to a set speed.

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[SPROUTZ]

I agree with you that the problem of a larger boat is to moor in a marina or in a harbour.
But when we consider the Med ( Croatia, Greece, Turkey ) there are so many protected bays and in Greece so few marinas, that we can always anchor somewhere and wait for a few hours the weather to calm down.
My modern 43 footer requires less physical effort than my previous 33 footer. With her we sailed in winds up to Force 9; in a Force 10 in Turkey the anchors dragged and we were lucky to strand in soft mud.

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[roly_voya]

There are as many views as cruisers! I would say the smallest boat you can fit on which may be 3ft shorter than you think

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[DistantDrum]

We have a 43 foot steel yacht. To overcome the manoeuvrability problem we have just installed a bow thruster.

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[snowleopard]

in addition to the point about berthing in bad conditions, the biggest question is could one of you take in a reef in a squall with everything up and 40 knots of wind blowing. i manage fine with my 40 footer- 500 sq ft main but recently took a trip in a 55 ft version of the same thing where it took 3 of us to reef in 25 knots. you don't want to be in a position of dreading a trip to the foredeck.

powered sail handling is wonderful if you can afford it and provided it keeps working. met a couple with a HR50 who had full electric furling and were totally relaxed when the rest of us were geting wet & windy taking in reefs.

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[charles_reed]

Yes

As with all things nautical it's a trade off. In reply to Roly Voya most always wish they'd bought a boat 1m longer.

Pros for a large boat(over 14m LOA)
1. More carrying capacity (all cruising boats get overloaded the degree of overburden is less on a large than a small boat).
2. Comfort, this has to do with room below, easier movement at sea, privacy etc.
3. Seaworthiness, not so much being able to stand a blow, but the ability to make fast passages comfortably, to be at sea and therefore at risk for shorter periods, being able to divert to alternative ports at the threat of bad weather.

Cons against a large boat
1. Costs increase as the square of LWL - capital, running and mooring
2. Effort required, anchoring, sail-handling, mooring.

So I'd always recommend going for the longest LWL you can afford in terms of capital and running costs.
Handling is IMHO the least problem (by definition capable of solution). Why I know of a 72' designed for over 60 husband/wife team, which has put 387M into 24 hours. Modern boats are far more crew-energy-efficient than their predecessors.

I've tried to rank the factors.

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[mocruising]

Some useful thoughts. We do want a bow thruster and either electro or hydraulic sail handling for both the main and the headsail. We are late forties at the moment but look to the future when we may not be quite so fit. We met a dutch couple on a HR 46 last year in Dartmouth who had mechanical everything they were in their late 60's and had no problems.

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[Rohorn]

Hi....
No one has mentioned having a stern anchor winch. Apart from the security of having two separate anchoring systems ready to deploy, it allows one either with crew or single handed to come into a marina bows-on with significant ease. The myth of stern-to mooring in the Med persists...I don't like to dine on display...and my overhung rudders are too vulnerable anyway.
One can steer the boat forward easily into a space, judging the anchor drop and set on the way, leave the motors in gear on tick over, control the remaining metres..even centimetres...with the anchor winch clutch, all from the cockpit. Then with the bows hovering off the jetty, and the winch locked, stroll forward to secure lines to the jetty. Stroll back and take the motors out of gear, see how she sets and so on.
I marvel that so few boats have a stern anchor winch.
Cheers.....R

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[AndrewB]

I never met anyone long-term cruising who didn't want a yacht 2 feet longer than what they had.

There seems to be no upper limit to this ....

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[SPROUTZ]

The upper limit is the size of the boat that we are able to handle.

A 47 years old Francis Joyon just sailed around the world in less than 73 days in a trimaran 90ft long with an upwind sail area of 340 m².

Jean-Luc Van Den Heede sailed around the world against the wind in 122 days, 14 hours, 3 minutes and 49 seconds and he is just 58 years old.

The young Ellen MacArthur is working on her new 75 ft trimaran to sail solo: in the last Yachting World April 2004 it is mentioned that it took seven people several minutes to raise the mainsail.

While Jimmy Cornell is sailing around the world quitely in his 43 footer and his wife joins him (now in the Pacific), since she dislikes long ocean crossings.

Each of us has his own dreams, goals and budgets but finally
THE ONLY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MEN AND BOYS IS THE PRICE OF THEIR TOYS

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[pandroid]

Well we spent a straight 4 months on our HR36 last year and I can honestly say that it was fine for 2 of us. We were surprised that we didnt feel we wanted more, but it swallowed eveything we wanted it to do. (In fact we had so much gear on board, we developed a slight list as the diesel ran out...). We know many other cruising couples with similar sizes. However, if there are four of you, you'll need at least a 43

In Scandanavia, 3.5 m beam is about as big as you want. We met a couple on a 55 footer and they had trouble finding berths.

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.kissen.co.uk>Kissen - The Baltic Cruise</A>

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[Nick_Pam]

We chartered a lot before deciding on a 37 footer that we can handle as a couple, and accommodate various associated children/grand-children/friends, but not so comfortably that they want to stay for extended periods!!

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[HaraldS]

Don't get too worried about the handling issues of a larger boat. There are couples like the Dashews happily operating 80 footers. Equipment, type of boat all matters a lot. Cost, I think usually establishes an upper limit and cost goes up almost by the cubic. Even if you buy a very large used boat for the price of a much smaller new one, the running cost could be surpricingly high.

When we looked for our current boat a few years ago, we aimed at the 50 -56 ft range and ended up at the low end, deciding for all new, a huge spec and top range qulaity. Handling for an old couple is no problem I can assure you, but I don't have as much carrying capacity and stowage space I'd like for a live aboard and go far boat. It's OK but not plenty.

I have been sailing the boat alone with unexperienced crew (guests) and a broken bow thruster and it was ok in harbours and marinas. But with the thing working you can park the boat like a car, almost regardless of current and wind.

Our boat is excatly (at least by spec) 15m, just a bit over 49 ft. These 15m seems to be a price boundary in many marinas, and price goes up quite a bit. So I found we were lucky just fitting in and if I'd take a larger boat, I'd go quite a bit up.

Also think that costs like anti fouling goes up by cubic with length, and many older boats have huge wetted surface contributing to quite high mantainance costs.

Over 30 years ago I enjoyed a lot, going long distance in an old 36 footer, with the interior space aof todays 30 footers. No fridges no nothing and it wa sgreat and very enjoyable, now that I'm older I do enjoy a bit more comfort and it comes with a rat tail of consequences....





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[Nauticat42]

We are currently 9 months into a years sabbatical cruising in the med.

Although I had some experience it seemed prudent to be better trained before setting off on such a trip so I decided to embark on fast track yachtmaster course at the beginning of 2003 with the plan to buy a yacht and leave the UK in July 2003.

14 weeks living onboard 3 different yachts (ranging from 38ft to 46ft) during the yachtmaster course gave me the experience to draw up my list of "must haves" for the ideal boat for our year of living on board.

It quickly became clear that the ideal yacht for comfortable living and sailing long distances with a crew of two (one of whom was very inexperienced) had very different characteristics to the ideal sailing school boat that had a crew of 6.

My list of "must haves" ended up looking like this.

Good sea keeping and stabilty -
Sturdy well built with quality interior
Deck Saloon - keeping watch from the warm at night and winter days
In mast furling - needed to be able to reef single handed
Bow Thruster - extra manouverability in tight spots
Generator - marinas are too expensive in summer so no shore power
Quiet powerful engine - motoring in the med is ineviteable
Good sized master cabin - you dont want to sleep in a coffin
Light and airy saloon - I wanted to enjoy the scenery
Spacious living areas - essential if you have visitors
High capacity diesel and water tanks -
A fast easy to launch RIB - you get to explore places the yacht won't go
Comfortable dry cockpit - getting soaked every day loses its charm
Large shower room and washing machine - ok this is a luxury


So armed with this checklist I started my search in April 2003.

I quickly realised that there were very few yachts that were actually going to put ticks against all my criteria.

I looked everything from Oysters (which although seemed to fit the bill very well but didnt have a true deck saloon) to a 50ft custom built steel boat (asking too much and too difficult to resell) to a Dehler 41 (Proper deck saloon but rest of space very cramped)

It was only by chance that my next stop was Halberg Rassey, and while looking at some of the used yachts I noticed a Nauticat 42 at the end of the row.

Having previously only seen Nauticats that looked like fishing trawlers I had not even thought of looking them.

However as I was there I decided to take a look anyway.

Well here was a boat that really did seem to meet all the requirements on my checklist.

I decided to go away and do some more research, not the easiest thing since the yachting press hardly ever do comparative reviews including Nauticats. However people I spoke to all seemed to have good things to say about them.

Anyway to cut a long story short we ended up buying Free Lady not the first Nauticat 42 that I saw but another one that was on sale from Nauticat UK.

As I said right at the start we are now 9 months into our year sabbatical and I have absolutely no regrets about the choice of yacht.

She has performed faultlessly in all weathers, swallows 6 people with ease but is easy to handle with just two, is a pleasure to live onboard with just about every home comfort (home cinema & air conditioning) and has made our time off a total pleasure.

Dont buy a boat without looking at a Nauticat first!

PS

We will regretably be selling ours in a few months! Take a look at www.nauticat42.co.uk










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[Sybarite]

I suggest you consider an Amel Super Maramu before you finalize. In France they are considered the Rolls Royce of cruising boats and everything is set up for finger-light single-handed sailing. If the 16m (53') is too big, a second hand Santorin 46' includes most of the Maramu's features.

http://www.nautica.it/boatshow/amel/marameng.htm
http://www.bwsailing.com/01articles/issue/1003/boattest.htm

I brought some friends to the Paris boat show and they all preferred the Super Maramu of all the boats they visited.


John Tynan

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[Melody]

We run a charter company in Greece so see all sorts of liveaboard yachts in the harbour, and get to know most of them. While it is a personal decision, around 40 - 45 ft has most of the advantages of a big boat and few of the disadvantages.

Here are a few point that I haven't seen mentioned
Where will you take your boat out for maintenance? What size can they handle? What draft do you want? (will you want to go via French canals)

Although there are two of you, think in terms of one of you handling the boat. There may be times when you have to, and it could be your wife rather than you.

Also, what happens when (not if) your equipment fails. Could you bring the sails in by hand? Raise the anchor?

From what we've seen the cost of running a 44ft is about twice that of a 34ft boat, and I think a 54ft boat would be about 3 times the cost of a 34ft.

We've met quite a few people sailng happily in very big boats but they have always had lots of money and lots of engineering and other skills.

<hr width=100% size=1>Melody McKay Burton
Yacht Valentine, Greece

 

[mocruising]

My research has taken me down more or less /exactly the same path as yours (Nauticat 42). I had always thought a Nauticat was a bit too much of a motor sailor but as it happens I have been tracking a VAT unpaid 99 Nauticat 42 that is currently on the market. We were thinking of a slightly larger boat Oyster 485 or HR 46 but have not ruled out the Nauticat 42 or HR 42 which is also supposed to be a good cruising boat. Again price is not so much a major consideration as finding the correct boat for us, (One that two reasonably experienced sailors can safely handle) we are working on a budget of about 25 k a year which excludes all capital costs. I will be returning to the UK soon and had intended to look at the Nauticat 42 only if I had time, however after your comments I will look at it with interest.

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