Disillusioned with costly timewasters

[Mudisox]

Being in a "middle man" position, I won't call them professions, you are known by the quality of the service that you give, to both clients who buy and sell.
One is not owed a living, are often self employed, and need to develop a strategy that ensures that both your time and effort is rewarded,either financially or in other ways. We all make errors in our strategy/or employment of them, and I learnt a lot from the mistakes I made.

 

[LittleShip]

Ok, I know it's the silly season and as brokers we take the rough with the smooth.

But if you know the owner is giving up his Easter sailing for you to view his yacht.

If you know the broker is going to see you well out of office hours and make a 200 mile round trip and give up his family time for you.

If you know that the viewing is set up on the basis that it is for a cash purchase at or near the asking price.

And if you know that you had no intention of ever buying the yacht, if you know you do not even have the funds and have lied through you teeth and put a lot of decent, honest and helpful people out.

Why the **** would you do that to people. :disgust::disgust::disgust:


Warning -It's a small world the sailing world and if you are going to lie, be sure it's consistent and not to the wrong person.

You know who you are.

All true all true..... but.

There are brokers out there just as bad. I have a friend that did a 500+ mile round trip to look at a boat that the broker had told him was in great condition.

When he got there it hadn't been cleaned in years and the photos were over four years old.

One could say what goes around comes around...... Although maybe not to the correct person.

I was asked to do a 500 mile round trip for somebody that said that the boat would be full of rot according to his surveyor.
That's boat selling I suppose.

Tom.

 

[Swanrad2]

When selling my first boat a man arranged to meet me 100 miles away at the boat. He then refused to pay the £2 water taxi fee to view it, I suspect that was a poor test with a positive result - tyre kicker! I am still at the 'lower end' of the market but when buying our last boat one brokerage clearly treated me as though I couldn't afford the boat in question (which at the time, before self employment beckoned I really could) so seen both sides.

Name him. He is not a client, he is not engaged add some caveats and name him or better still get your client to name him so you won't put off potential buyers in the future who are worried..... that would be fun wouldn't it?

 

[KINGFISHER 8]

I say to people who start off on this tack, once you become fixated on a stupid discount or screwing someone for "a deal" and lose focus on the quality of what you want, you usually do end up with a "cheap" deal.

What's that saying

The pain of poor quality lasts long after the joy of a cheap deal

I'd settle for a timewaster ... doesn't want something a bit cheaper does he? I'll take anything ... beads, bitcoins, dusky maidens ..... !

 

[A1Sailor]

If it is the cost/time associated with allowing potential purchasers to view boats, why not consider charging them a fee? That could then be used to employ "a lad" to help with the viewings, leaving the expert senior broker to do other things and might be much more time efficient as well.

 

[Swanrad2]

If it is the cost/time associated with allowing potential purchasers to view boats, why not consider charging them a fee? That could then be used to employ "a lad" to help with the viewings, leaving the expert senior broker to do other things and might be much more time efficient as well.

Can also be offset against the purchase price.....
Could be a nominal fee.

The threat from a sales process point of view is you want the Sunday shopper to walk round the yacht and fall in love, they might be put off by a fifty quid fee. You could implement a due diligence process; I hereby certify that I am in a position to buy, etc...you can verity their address (with permission) online and cross reference with ACORN to pass judgement on if they can afford but it is a blunt tool.

I am sure the above is grandma and eggs as I think the OP is really railing against the nature of people and knows it is an occupational hazard. No due diligence process can remove the possibility of fraud (not saying this is such) or dishonesty and 'gut feeling' is not a reliable barometer of propensity to purchase.

In this case the OP got it wrong - not his fault and hopefully his clients don't blame him. Salespeople exist to identify and sell to a segment of one (unlike marketeers) and if it was easy we wouldn't need them....I for one (as a salesman myself) dream about selling yachts but at 6 foot 5 have always thought I would make the headroom look rubbish and lose more sales than I wold gain!

 

[maby]

It is a problem, but it is almost inevitable with the way that the second hand boat market is structured. I would far prefer to buy through the equivalent of a Second Hand Car Lot where you can see multiple boats on display and get a good idea of the options without inconveniencing anyone. When we were considering changing boats a couple of years ago, we looked only at places like Deacons and the Clark&Carter second hand boat fairs - with a single trip, we could see many boats and we didn't feel restricted in our freedom to ask to look around. You still get the tyre kickers, but they don't particularly inconvenience the broker or owner.

 

[Gordonmc]

I have some sympathy with your position.
I was still in posession of my wooden double-ender when I bought a project boat which needed heavy refit including repowering. The boats were in different yards and I decided to leave the woody on the hard while I concentrated on the project.

Then I was introduced by a friend to a potential purchaser of the woody which had not been advertised. Mr. Buyer expressed his keeness, if I could complete a few jobs and anti-foul her. A price was agreed - he even asked if a cheque or cash was preferred - and a hand-over date settled on.
So, the project was temporarily abandoned and the work on the woody was duly completed. Come hand-over date and I got a voicemail from Mr. Buyer, pulling out of the deal. His excuse was that my woody was a sloop and he wanted a gaff!

I was hacked off.
A bit.
My friend who introduced me to Mr. Buyer was embarrassed.

 

[Uricanejack]

uricanejack

I have been in sales for 27 years 10 of which are in yacht sales and have met more timewasters than you can imagine and have a thicker skin than a rhino.

Just looking is fine.

But what I can't tolerate is someone who knows he is seriously upsetting a families holiday plans, has been well briefed on the situation but lies his *rse off to get what he wants because he is on holiday in the area and can't be *rsed to come at a more suitable time because he was not and is not ever going to buy the yacht because he doesn't even have the money.

I would agree the person in question is an inconsiderate jerk. Particularly to the boat owner who had other plans disrupted. Yet when you decide to sell something you have to be prepared to make it avalable.

Just curious roughly how many times would an average boat need to be shown to sell

 

[sailorman]

I have some sympathy with your position.
I was still in posession of my wooden double-ender when I bought a project boat which needed heavy refit including repowering. The boats were in different yards and I decided to leave the woody on the hard while I concentrated on the project.

Then I was introduced by a friend to a potential purchaser of the woody which had not been advertised. Mr. Buyer expressed his keeness, if I could complete a few jobs and anti-foul her. A price was agreed - he even asked if a cheque or cash was preferred - and a hand-over date settled on.
So, the project was temporarily abandoned and the work on the woody was duly completed. Come hand-over date and I got a voicemail from Mr. Buyer, pulling out of the deal. His excuse was that my woody was a sloop and he wanted a gaff!

I was hacked off.
A bit.
My friend who introduced me to Mr. Buyer was embarrassed.

The Flap for nothing then

 

[Talulah]

Having recently assisted a friend of our in buying a second hand Moody I can report as follows:
He visited 3 Moodys in the last 4 months making an offer on each one.
Boat number 1 at Swanwick: The broker new a lot about the boat. It's history, the owner etc. Was able to answer any questions. Offer made but rejected by seller. Boat was overpriced (in my experience and the brokers experience) but the owner just couldn't see that it needed major updating after having had it for 20 years. i.e. standing rigging needed replacing. Original gas cooker with no flame failure device needed replacing, everything pretty well at end of life.
Boat number 2: I had no involvment but the potential buyer wasn't impressed because it came across as dark and not very inviting. So here I think the issue is that the boat was not well lit, warm etc for the potential buyer to purchase. They just couldn't picture themself 'at home'. No real follow up by the broker.
Boat number 3: Bealieu. Dealer from Lymington. Pleasant enough. Relied on brochure too much to state facts that weren't true. i.e. Electric windlass when it was a manual one. When pointed out the cooker had to be replaced as it didn't have any flame failure devices dealer claimed they could be retrofitted. Not true. Fortunately, the owner came and was able to give a much better presentation. Sensible offer made and accepted. Sea trial started off disastrously but came together in the end. Boat was well presented and had had some updates. i.e standing rigging replaced. When we first looked at the boat we spent considerable time looking through it. (2 hours.) I don't think the broker picked up upon how serious this potential buyer was.
One disapointment. Broker number 1 (Ancasta) should have matched boat number 3 with the potential purchaser
when boat number 3 also came on to Ancasta's books. The potential buyer was very specific about which boat he wanted and one of the selling points for brokers is they have a chain that they can match boats to buyers with.
The new owner has just paid the balance and is about to take ownership.

On a side note: a quick mention about Jonic. Jonic has the same model boat as the potential buyer. The buyer reported back that although Jonic didn't have a suitable boat at the time the free advice and informed knowledge was extremely useful. When he comes to selling I suspect I know who he will be selling through.

 

[doug748]

All right I'll play devils advocate too....

Present company excepted :encouragement: or not, to call boat brokers scrapings of the barrel is pretty unfair for you in particular at the moment, especially considering the amount of sound advice that has been freely given to you by a number of brokers on the liveaboard forum over the last few days in your quest to purchase a boat in Florida.

Should they perhaps send you an invoice now they know what you really think of them?

You have had free visa advice, tax advice, registration advice and free boat advice from those scrapings of the barrel.

Sounds like you just want a lot of free knowledge and stuff to me - get back in the barrel!

:encouragement:

Very good. Smack, right on the snozzle.



As for timewasters.

One bloke wanted to buy an item off me, very keen, wetting himself, would arrange to pick up the goods "next week". I never heard form him again. He refused to answer any communication yet still presents himself as: a fellow of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy.

I think their minds are wired up in a strange way.

 

[C08]

A long time before I was ever interested in boats a guy I shared an office with weas always on the phone talking with yacht brokers about the various spec he could have on new boats like 50ft Nauticats and engine options for Trader boats. I used to challenge him about being a time waster but he was totally shameless and used to go and have boat trials, visit factories and boatbuilder with no intention of buying a boat. It was just a hobby to him but he was a bit of a fantasist!

 

[MYStargazer]

Serious question - in the age of the internet, what is the point of the yacht broker?

i've bought through them in the past, but only because I had to. I'd always buy direct from the owner where possible.

 

[maby]

Serious question - in the age of the internet, what is the point of the yacht broker?

i've bought through them in the past, but only because I had to. I'd always buy direct from the owner where possible.

The last time we attempted to buy a second hand boat, we were very glad we went through a broker. We paid a significant deposit before going out on a trial run and commissioning a survey. Between the trial and the survey, defects became clear that we wanted rectified before completing the purchase. The owner disagreed with our assessment and became quite unpleasant about it when we decided to pull out - if we had paid the deposit directly to him, I think we could have been faced with legal action to pull out. The broker asked to see the survey results, agreed with us that we should be allowed to pull out and refunded the deposit.

 

[jonic]

Serious question - in the age of the internet, what is the point of the yacht broker?

i've bought through them in the past, but only because I had to. I'd always buy direct from the owner where possible.

Which part of the internet is insured for professional negligence and does the sale and purchase agreements, checking on VAT and RCD status Title history check, checking for outstanding finance, secure deposit and final finance holding/transfer, conveyancing, legal transfer of title and all of this?

A professionally qualified and insured yacht broker will

Check your title paperwork
Check your vat status paperwork
Check your RCD status paperwork
Check your registration paperwork
Recover lost paperwork or organise certified copies
Have real time knowledge of actual achieved selling prices in addition to asking prices
Write your boat's particulars in a way that sells
Photograph the boat professionally in a way that sells
Make a video of the boat in a way that sells
Email those details to registered active buyers looking for a boat like yours
Ring the buyer who has asked to be informed when a boat like yours comes up
Market your boat by telephone
Market your boat face to face
Market your boat on broker only websites like yachtworld.com
Market your boat at boatshows
Continuously look for PR opportunities for your boat
Pass your boat's details to a network of co-brokers in a different geographic location
Buy specific, targeted advertising on your behalf
Answer telephone enquiries about your boat
Answer email enquiries about your boat
Pick up viewers from the airport or train station
Take people to see your boat and demonstrate its features in a way that sells
Take people to see your boat who came in to look at another boat and suggest yours is more suitable
Prepare and air your boat before each viewing
Weed out the scammers and money launderers
Negotiate a price
Draw up and administer a legal contract with conditions specific to you, the boat and the buyer
Have a panel of solicitors he can refer to through his professional association
Have direct contact with an HMRC Yacht VAT specialist
Hold the deposit securely and in a separate and written in trust account for both sides
Carry insurance for both sides
Carry out a seatrial
Arrange the survey
Arrange the lift
Attend the survey
Negotiate with the surveyor and buyer after survey
Help with quotes and repairs recommend by the surveyor
Amend the contract with new terms after survey
Process the balance payment securely for both sides
Ensure title is passed correctly and draw up the new Bill of Sale
Provide a new paper trail for both sides
Assist with registration and ships radio license transfer
Arrange finance
Arrange insurance
Help find a berth
Buy the drinks on handover ?


All of which you or the owner can do yourself. (except neither your nor he will be insured for getting it wrong)

But I have lost count now, and many brokers reading this will also have, of the total cock ups that private sales have led to and the serious issues people have gotten themselves into because they are blissfully unaware of the myriad of paperwork issues regarding VAT, Title, RCD, registration and finance. The classics being convinced that an SSR certificate is proof of ownership, crossing out the most important legal phrases on the Bill of Sale, thinking a sale and purchase agreement is a Bill of Sale and thinking a Bill of Sale is proof of VAT paid.

I have unravelled boats still with 20 year old charges on them, boats that have been imported without VAT being properly accounted for, Illegal boats that were not RCD compliant, title that has not been transferred correctly on death, boats that were still owned by companies where the new owner thought he was the only private owner, boats where only 32/64ths had been transferred but the new owner thought he had paid for the entire yacht....and the list goes on an on.

A yacht broker is not merely an advertiser, a classified ad will do that.

A decent broker will be insured in the £millions and will have performed full due diligence on the yacht before even submitting her to market and will have all the documents collated and ready for a buyers inspection before they even view the yacht, let alone discuss buying her.

 

[Seajet]

Jonic,

something tells me you've had this sort of question before, if not every day for the last few years !

Broadly similar to my being a photographer, any berk has a camera on a phone now don't they ?

Also similar, I suspect some at the lower end of the spectrum - and the odd berk at the higher levels - are happy to take phone camera - or internet boat ad' - type results...

 

[jonic]

Jonic,

something tells me you've had this sort of question before, if not every day for the last few years !

Broadly similar to my being a photographer, any berk has a camera on a phone now don't they ?

Also similar, I suspect some at the lower end of the spectrum - and the odd berk at the higher levels - are happy to take phone camera - or internet boat ad' - type results...

He he seajet, can you tell

Many moons ago before running away to sea with swmbo I used to work for the high end advertisng studios in Soho London as well, so know exactly what you mean

 

[Jim@sea]

I was a manager of a business in the Motor Trade, one of the owners was into yachts, when he found out that I was into boats he had me making phone calls to a couple of brokers who were selling a particular make of boat. He explained that if he rang they would recognise his voice. Apparently he had ordered something and changed his mind and wanted a different model/deal. A total time waster.

 

[bendyone]

When my daughter will be in a position to buy a boat ( and she will at some stage) it will be a Princess for one very good reason, the salesman at the LBS took time to show her around one when she was 11 years old. Worth remembering.