Discount on shore storage for inability to go to boat and carry out work???

[Never Grumble]

I do sympathise with this position. Other folks on here, in Scotland, had the same opinion but based on the grounds that the marina could have delivered a service but chose not to (there was no obligation legally for them to stop delivering the service). That aside, the fault sits with the government allowing profiteering to be a possibility but it is difficult to see how this could have been addressed.

In my opinion, we do have an obligation towards our society to help limit the impact of Covid. I must admit that I am now at a loss on what is the best way based on a lot of conflicting information: masks are good, masks are not good; isolate, isolate doesn't work; stay at least 1m or 2m away from others; old, middle aged, young dying, not dying, only over 80s significantly at risk of death etc.

Thanks for understanding the first bit on the distribution of monies. I don't disagree with the need to limit Covid and have abided by the guidance all the way through. Mind now on a temporary basis being poorly paid middle aged key workers to make ends meet and with a son still going to school, going to the boat would be very low risk.

 

[steveeasy]

Profiteering, I was stunned the other day that the government had decided to hand out more grants given they had handed out good payments in June 2019 and payments every 21 days busineses were told to close. Firstly my business has been closed three times now, I have no real assets, quite big outgoings relating to my business, but quite frankly the money handed out has been great in supporting most busineses, but more is not needed when you are getting monthly hand outs for being closed, and staff can be furloughed.

At the yard staff have been furloughed but still around. owners of boats have been on furlough but still working for the employer. random people ive turned up to work for have told me they received a payment for £25,000 and don't even have a business. Its a shamblesand some are bleeding the country and at some point it will or has already run out.

Steveeasy

 

[[2574]]

its you that needs to take your head out of your ****.

If that is where we are going with this discussion then I’d prefer not to communicate with you further.

 

[JumbleDuck]

As you say this is a matter of contract law, not whether it is right moral or whatever, and there's no need to get a grip. You should be entitled to a reduction, discount, concession of some description.

For not being facilitated to do something illegal? Good luck with that.

 

[steveeasy]

And that's just the start of profiteering and what must be corruption. a simple example. 3 year parliamentary investigation in to defra found them guilty of maladministration in handing out huge grants 2014. a criminal investigation in to the same matter found an applicant had fraudulently applied for £200,000 and ordered |Defra to recover the money 2015.(I met the then Secretary of state at House of commons on the Matter) A year later defra never recovered the money choosing to let of the wealthy benificery , but then chose 2016 to hand the same applicant another £500,000 in recognition for lieing the first time. Of course there is little anyone can do as the police will not get involved as the victim has to report a crime and the last thing Defra want is to tell the public what is really going on with our money. This just the very tip of a massive iceburg.
Rant Over

 

[Never Grumble]

If that is where we are going with this discussion then I’d prefer not to communicate with you further.

that's fine with me, makes good sense as you have nothing to add apart from remarks about common sense.

At the yard staff have been furloughed but still around. owners of boats have been on furlough but still working for the employer. random people ive turned up to work for have told me they received a payment for £25,000 and don't even have a business. Its a shamblesand some are bleeding the country and at some point it will or has already run out.

that's what I don't get the inequitable handout shambles, I spoke to someone earlier today who said they were working 2 & half days a week for their employer and 2 & half days a week on furlough, to me that doesn't sound right. I will step out of this here as all it does is make my blood boil, roll on retirement and a triple locked pension.

 

[Moodysailor]

I sympathise with the financial aspect, but FWIW any business that claims relief during these times has to keep detailed records of the justification and evidence.
There will always be some who profit from the misfortune of others, but make no mistake - when the dust settles there will be some serious forensics into where the tax money has gone, and I expect some who have gained unfairly will be in serious trouble.

Personally, I think it is right for the yards and marinas to actively discourage attendance - no matter how poorly the correspondence is worded. As well as sailing, I am involved in triathlon and cycling clubs and there is the same vein of confirmation bias within those groups - there are always those who will interpret any ambiguity to their own purpose. Intelligent people suddenly pleading ignorance doesn't seem like mere coincidence to me!

It's tough - I feel for you and your business. Maybe start a dialogue with the Marina/Yard Manager to see what options they have considered and can offer. If you really feel that you have been unjustly treated then next year you can vote with your money and move your boat is all I can suggest.

 

[Never Grumble]

I sympathise with the financial aspect, but FWIW any business that claims relief during these times has to keep detailed records of the justification and evidence.
There will always be some who profit from the misfortune of others, but make no mistake - when the dust settles there will be some serious forensics into where the tax money has gone, and I expect some who have gained unfairly will be in serious trouble.

Personally, I think it is right for the yards and marinas to actively discourage attendance - no matter how poorly the correspondence is worded. As well as sailing, I am involved in triathlon and cycling clubs and there is the same vein of confirmation bias within those groups - there are always those who will interpret any ambiguity to their own purpose. Intelligent people suddenly pleading ignorance doesn't seem like mere coincidence to me!

It's tough - I feel for you and your business. Maybe start a dialogue with the Marina/Yard Manager to see what options they have considered and can offer. If you really feel that you have been unjustly treated then next year you can vote with your money and move your boat is all I can suggest.

let's hope there is some justice, but I doubt there will be the resource to scrutinise many of these payments. I did try the dialogue approach and now looking to move, that should be interesting when it comes to still being lockdown and wanting to leave etc.

 

[Moodysailor]

let's hope there is some justice, but I doubt there will be the resource to scrutinise many of these payments. I did try the dialogue approach and now looking to move, that should be interesting when it comes to still being lockdown and wanting to leave etc.

You may well be right, but I sincerely hope that HMRC will be given remit and resource to pursue. I would think the massive deficit in the budget will also provide some fresh incentive....

But yes, as with all things, we will have to wait and see how it pans out. More than likely the taxes for the workers will go up :-(

 

[dom]

that's fine with me, makes good sense as you have nothing to add apart from remarks about common sense.


that's what I don't get the inequitable handout shambles, I spoke to someone earlier today who said they were working 2 & half days a week for their employer and 2 & half days a week on furlough, to me that doesn't sound right. I will step out of this here as all it does is make my blood boil, roll on retirement and a triple locked pension.

You are making a number of fair and well argued points.

Best not to ruin them with needless personal insults which just tarnish the entire forum.

 

[bbg]

During the long spring 2020 "lockdown" my boat had already been launched a few days before the lockdown started, and the harbour authority gave a mooring charges discount for inability to use the boat on it's mooring.

Now we are again in lockdown, and I have a substantial bill from a private boatyard for shore storage until mid-March. I had a long string of jobs I planned to do (myself) in the next 6-8 weeks. I have just received a letter from the boatyard saying "..... don't go to your own boat", but that commercial contactors culd still work. If I had not wanted to work on the boat over winter. I could have kept her afloat at a lower cost. But I did want to work on it - and had quite a lot of work to do. If I paid contractors to do them all I would be certainly be well over a thousand £ more out of pocket - quite possibly £2,000+. You don't have to clock up that many hours to get a big bill.

Did anyone in a similar situation in spring /early summer 2020 get a discount on their shore storage costs?

Presumably you haven’t even been able to start the work. Can you launch as usual and do the work next year?

 

[Never Grumble]

You are making a number of fair and well argued points.

Best not to ruin them with needless personal insults which just tarnish the entire forum.

Thanks, I dont want to ruin anything either but the implied (lack of) common sense I have started elsewhere.

 

[Sandy]

Now we are again in lockdown, and I have a substantial bill from a private boatyard for shore storage until mid-March. I had a long string of jobs I planned to do (myself) in the next 6-8 weeks. I have just received a letter from the boatyard saying "..... don't go to your own boat", but that commercial contactors culd still work. If I had not wanted to work on the boat over winter. I could have kept her afloat at a lower cost. But I did want to work on it - and had quite a lot of work to do. If I paid contractors to do them all I would be certainly be well over a thousand £ more out of pocket - quite possibly £2,000+. You don't have to clock up that many hours to get a big bill.

In normal times do you get a rebate for days that you don't want to go down to the yard?

Were you not aware of the risk of Lockdown III considering the position that the planet is in?

 

[Never Grumble]

In normal times do you get a rebate for days that you don't want to go down to the yard?

Were you not aware of the risk of Lockdown III considering the position that the planet is in?

But I do want to go down to the yard.
Another one telling us to suck it up, had hoped we could have a more sensible debate on the law of contract, frustration, breach of etc.

 

[JumbleDuck]

But I do want to go down to the yard.
Another one telling us to suck it up, had hoped we could have a more sensible debate on the law of contract, frustration, breach of etc.

Does your contract say how much you are paying for storage and how much for access?

 

[Sandy]

But I do want to go down to the yard.
Another one telling us to suck it up, had hoped we could have a more sensible debate on the law of contract, frustration, breach of etc.

Sorry, I am an engineer not a lawyer. Given that there is a pandemic you had all the information and knowledge about what happened during Lockdown I. You could have kept the boat afloat, assuming it was not going to sink, and delayed the liftout until it was clear that Lockdown IV was about to be sprung on us unexpectedly.

 

[Never Grumble]

Sorry, I am an engineer not a lawyer. Given that there is a pandemic you had all the information and knowledge about what happened during Lockdown I. You could have kept the boat afloat, assuming it was not going to sink, and delayed the liftout until it was clear that Lockdown IV was about to be sprung on us unexpectedly.

Dear retired engineer. Its the OP who has his boat on the hard. Mine is in the water but same applies .... access denied.

 

[Sandy]

But I do want to go down to the yard.
Another one telling us to suck it up, had hoped we could have a more sensible debate on the law of contract, frustration, breach of etc.

Dear retired engineer. Its the OP who has his boat on the hard. Mine is in the water but same applies .... access denied.

Then your posts make no sense.

 

[bdh198]

There is a relatively straightforward starting point and that’s your contract with the yard and whether the yard has been directed to closed by the government regulations (not the guidance).

If there is no legal requirement for the yard closing (and I’d be surprised if there was) then the yard would probably be in breach of their contract with you by refusing you access to your boat.

If the yard is required to closed under the regulations then it will come down to the wording of the contract and whether the nature of the frustration to them not being able to provide their contractual services to you is something that is excluded for damages. Unless the wording of your contract is very clear, or you happen to have a good understanding of contract law, it’s probably not worth causing a dispute if the yard refuse to offer you a reduction in this situation.

For not being facilitated to do something illegal? Good luck with that.

That is totally irrelevant. There is no legal or contractual duty allowing the yard to refuse you contractual services because they would be “facilitating“ an illegal activity! If the contractual activity is not illegal per se (which it clearly isn’t), and if there is no restriction on the yard allowing that activity to continue under the regulations then the yard would be in breach of their contract to you by refusing you access. Whether your activity is legal under the regulations is a separate matter and irrelevant for the question asked. Accessing your boat during lockdown is not illegal per se (the regulations do not say you cannot access or work on your boat during lockdown), and you may have a “reasonable excuse” under the regulations for doing just that - in reality these will be very rare, but the fact is they can and do exist. If you don’t have a ”reasonable excuse” then that is not a concern for yard in performing their contractual obligations to you, even if the risk of you breaching lockdown in the current pandemic is morally objectionable.

Quite simply, there could very easily be quite lawful reasons for you wanting or needing access to visit/work on your boat which afford a “reasonable excuse” under the regulations. Likewise, the vast majority of visits are probably not going to be a reasonable excuse and will be in breach of the regulations. If the yard want to police these activities and breach their contract with you then you will be entitled to damages.

 

[Never Grumble]

There is a relatively straightforward starting point and that’s your contract with the yard and whether the yard has been directed to closed by the government regulations (not the guidance).
If there is no legal requirement for the yard closing (and I’d be surprised if there was) then the yard would probably be in breach of their contract with you by refusing you access to your boat.

Thanks for the clear explanation. As you say the problem is when they refuse and the amount of money in dispute is relatively small. You probably then get into the arena of implied terms and other contract law issues. I believe one group were subject of a class action but on an individual costs basis its not worth chasing it.