Disabling a jam cleat

[NewbieSailorGirl]

Hi - don't know if I'm in the right place here or not (as you can see from my name I'm a Newbie ;/ ) However, I'll go for it anyway.
I have a jam cleat at the top of the mast on my dinghy for the main halyard - one of those 5cm long v-shaped things with sort of teeth on the sides to grip the halyard. It's a pain in the a**e when returning to shore in a wind and needing to quickly get the mainsheet down with one hand whilst holding onto the boat with the other and trying to keep it pointing into the wind as I'm removing the centreboard and getting the rudder up using my teeth and left foot! So, I've fitted another cleat at the bottom of the mast to make life easier, which is working fine. However.... the little s**t at the top of the mast still wants to be part of the action and will trap the halyard as and when it feels like it.
Removing it would be the obvious solution but it's been there so long it's become part of the mast and would entail major surgery which I'd like to avoid cos, basically, I'd have no idea where to start and am worried about causing a whole lot of new problems in attempting that.
Can I file the teeth off? Or simply block it off in some way - and if so how? Bearing in mind that, being a newbie, I'm a bit of a capsize queen so it will receive regular dunkings
Any ideas would be gratefully received, many thanks.

 

[oldbloke]

I have had a boat with this(rs Aero) and it can be a bit of a pain. The reasons for doing it this way are:- 1, if you cleat at the bottom of the mast as it bends the halyard takes the shortest route like a bowstring and the sail drops a little. Not masses but enough to affect sail shape and drop the already low boom a little. 2, fixing the sail at the top rather than the bottom reduces the compression in the mast ,which reduces the mast bend. Inducing mast bend by compression can be a good thing, but won't be what the designer intended in your case.
So, in the first instance I would suggest you persevere and find a technique that works. In my case it was to not let go of the halyard and keep it away from the cleat with one hand while the other pulled the sail down.
If you want to remove the cleat, under the clag and corrosion it is only held on with 2 rivets which are easily drilled out and the cleat pulled off. These cleats do wear and lose their grip, so it is worth changing them every few years or the sail will start coming down when you don't want it to.
You could fill the cleat with a hard epoxy resin or you could try , as a short term measure, try hammering in a short piece of string but I expect you would eventually pull it out when raising the sail.

 

[NewbieSailorGirl]

Brilliant, thanks for that info - I had thought about the string idea but didn't have the confidence to commit to it so thanks for making me realise I'm on the right line here. I think I'll try that idea first as it's less permanent than the epoxy idea and as I become a more competent sailor might want to revert to how it should really be done! So thanks for the solution and thanks for the confidence boost

 

[Daverw]

I sailed international OK and this also clipped at the top of the mast, it had a short wire strop which clipped in to a small vee clip, when pulled by the halyard it would release and then keep free as sail dropped. Could not reclip so worked well and did not really take any effort

Should have added, clip not quite at the top,about 200 mm down. I also see that large ocean racing boats also use similar

 

[Bobc]

Not usual to have anything at the top of the mast, for this reason. Remove it.

 

[dunedin]

Not usual to have anything at the top of the mast, for this reason. Remove it.

That depends very much on the boat - a halyard lock or cleat at the top of the mast is quite common on race boats as reduces halyard stretch, reduces tension on the spar, and means can have a much lighter/cheaper halyard tail.
Might help if new OP's exact boat type, but she said it is a dinghy not a yacht.

Newbiesailor - need to ensure the halyard rope is strong enough, and not too stretchy if using cleat at base of mast. If too stretchy could give bad sail shape in a breeze and make more likely to be overpowered or even capsize.

 

[PeterV]

Many dinghies with bendy masts have this arrangement, as said, it prevents the halyard dropping down when the mast bends. On my wooden Finn mast I pull the halyard to one side of the cleat and let it down from there so it doesn’t recleat.

 

[NewbieSailorGirl]

Hi everyone - thanks so much for your replies. I'll take on board (sorry for the pun) your comments about the halyard stretching and resultant bad sail shape etc if it does. To be quite honest, at my level of sailing, so long as the sail has a "sail shape" to it I'm over the moon - I'm still at the stage of "a flappy sail is not a happy sail"....but loving it - even the dunkings!
For Dunedin's info it's an RS Vareo - a tad tippy and frisky for a newbie maybe but I can tip it back when things start going wrong and, when all else fails, as it's got an open transom I can get back in it after a dunking - result!
Plus it's got a spinaker, so I can progress with it as I get better - hope to have that flying this season

 

[oldbloke]

There is a lot to be said for learning in a sporty dinghy , as long as it is not too sporty to be impossible, much more responsive , more rewards and punishments!. You see too many adults cramped up in reefed picos etc not able to feel anything or learn about balance. Dinghies are like bicycles, it gets easier the faster you go, so sit out and drive it hard and when you capsize at least you were looking cool

 

[Boathook]

@NewbieSailorGirl as long as no one is hurt or damage caused, apart from pride, enjoy it. Other boaters will laugh at your hurt but at the same time offer assistance and advice.

The big problem is sorting out rubbish advice from good. That comes from experience ....

 

[William_H]

I understand the principles of sail flattening etc but am still a fan of reefing or just have a smaller sail for stronger wind sailing. Especially so for a newby.
I would suggest OP look into reefing points on mainsail or smaller main sail as an option. It is no fun and likely to discourage a new sailor with too many capsizes. ol'will

 

[KompetentKrew]

Removing it would be the obvious solution but it's been there so long it's become part of the mast and would entail major surgery which I'd like to avoid cos, basically, I'd have no idea where to start and am worried about causing a whole lot of new problems in attempting that.

Post pics.

If it's secured with bolts / screws then pour kettles full of hot water over them before trying to undo them.

Drill out rivets.

I mean, you could just cut some scrap wood to the right size and wedge it between the teeth of the cleat, but removing it is clearly the more elegant solution and surely with the capabilities of this forum.

 

[NewbieSailorGirl]

There is a lot to be said for learning in a sporty dinghy , as long as it is not too sporty to be impossible, much more responsive , more rewards and punishments!. You see too many adults cramped up in reefed picos etc not able to feel anything or learn about balance. Dinghies are like bicycles, it gets easier the faster you go, so sit out and drive it hard and when you capsize at least you were looking cool

Hahaha! Absolutely!

 

[NewbieSailorGirl]

@NewbieSailorGirl as long as no one is hurt or damage caused, apart from pride, enjoy it. Other boaters will laugh at your hurt but at the same time offer assistance and advice.

The big problem is sorting out rubbish advice from good. That comes from experience ....

Yes, I've had a bit of the laughing - all good humoured. Came back to the slip a while ago to a reception committee and someone sneakily put a dead crab on my shoulder cos I'd been spending more time in rather than on the water

 

[NewbieSailorGirl]

Post pics.

If it's secured with bolts / screws then pour kettles full of hot water over them before trying to undo them.

Drill out rivets.

I mean, you could just cut some scrap wood to the right size and wedge it between the teeth of the cleat, but removing it is clearly the more elegant solution and surely with the capabilities of this forum.

Thanks for that info - I think I'm going to go for the scrap wood option for now and see how that goes

 

[NewbieSailorGirl]

I understand the principles of sail flattening etc but am still a fan of reefing or just have a smaller sail for stronger wind sailing. Especially so for a newby.
I would suggest OP look into reefing points on mainsail or smaller main sail as an option. It is no fun and likely to discourage a new sailor with too many capsizes. ol'will

Yes, I've been thinking about getting some reefing points put in as it'll give me the chance to experience some more frisky conditions. Not a class acceptable thing to do I know, but I'm only doing club sailing...

 

[Puffin10032]

Yes, I've been thinking about getting some reefing points put in as it'll give me the chance to experience some more frisky conditions. Not a class acceptable thing to do I know, but I'm only doing club sailing...

The problem with reefing a racing dinghy is that it seriously impairs your ability to bend the mast and flatten the sail. Yachts don't have this problem as they invariably have a backstay which can be used to bend the mast but in racing dinghies we rely heavily on leech tension in the mainsail to bend the top of the mast and flatten the sail. If you reef then the head of the sail is lower down the mast and has less leverage resulting less ability to bend the top of the mast and flatten the upper part of the sail. Instead of reefing you tighten the outhaul, use plenty of kicker tension and lots and lots of Cunningham tension. RS do offer a slightly smaller "storm" sail for the Vareo (assuming you've got a spare £750 lying around collecting dust). I think this was originally marketed as the "fun sail" in which case it's about 10% smaller than the competition sail. I can find no other information about it.

 

[Andrew_Trayfoot]

If you sit and watch an active dinghy slipway/launch area you will not see may single handed boats dropping/raising the sail on the water...

The technique is usually: sail close to the beach, un clip the rudder down hall on the way in, pull up the centre board a bit, turn the boat into the wind and hop over the side just aft of the mast. Then you can reach in an undo the kicker. At this point the boat is de-powered. You can now work you way around the the bow and keep the boat into the wind. On some boat you can also let the mainsheet go completely, or take the knot out of the end. Then the boat can be recovered with the sail up...

 

[NewbieSailorGirl]

The problem with reefing a racing dinghy is that it seriously impairs your ability to bend the mast and flatten the sail. Yachts don't have this problem as they invariably have a backstay which can be used to bend the mast but in racing dinghies we rely heavily on leech tension in the mainsail to bend the top of the mast and flatten the sail. If you reef then the head of the sail is lower down the mast and has less leverage resulting less ability to bend the top of the mast and flatten the upper part of the sail. Instead of reefing you tighten the outhaul, use plenty of kicker tension and lots and lots of Cunningham tension. RS do offer a slightly smaller "storm" sail for the Vareo (assuming you've got a spare £750 lying around collecting dust). I think this was originally marketed as the "fun sail" in which case it's about 10% smaller than the competition sail. I can find no other information about it.

That's really useful info - hadn't thought of any of that but completely understand the logic, thank you

 

[NewbieSailorGirl]

If you sit and watch an active dinghy slipway/launch area you will not see may single handed boats dropping/raising the sail on the water...

The technique is usually: sail close to the beach, un clip the rudder down hall on the way in, pull up the centre board a bit, turn the boat into the wind and hop over the side just aft of the mast. Then you can reach in an undo the kicker. At this point the boat is de-powered. You can now work you way around the the bow and keep the boat into the wind. On some boat you can also let the mainsheet go completely, or take the knot out of the end. Then the boat can be recovered with the sail up...