Define “use sails to control yacht in confined space”

[capnsensible]

It's far more than a 'piece of paper'. It's learning and developing skills. Training to a well thought out syllabus. And making it an enjoyable experience..

 

[Uricanejack]

Good idea. The plan is to work them up and are things more challenging each day. On the Clyde I used to sail up to the Kyle's of Bute and through Caladah. The rocks certainly are a concentrator!

Certainly having the engine ready is good seamanship. Having it running in neutral is a good safety net, but that edge of excitement can be lost.

The Kyles Of Bute a lovely days sailing. I must go back some time.

 

[Uricanejack]

For those of you familiar with the RYA Coastal Skipper practical course syllabus, there is a requirement to demonstrate control of the yacht in a confined space using the sails.

I’m interested in soliciting views on how this can be achieved safely?

If you’ve done the course, what task did the instructor set for this exercise?

At the risk of stating the obvious. Find a nice handy bit of confined water and go sail in it.
Never done an RYA course, I did Join in on a CYA advanced course. With I think David West as the instructor.
Part of which was a really fun day beating up and running back down Bamfield on 48ft Maple Leaf. Then returning to the same pub we had been in the night before.
Actually the biggest part of the fun was just being one of the crew. Putting a fairly big boat through its paces in a tight spot and talking advantage of extra lifts as the wind was funnelled through the inlet.
We spent the next day playing in the broken Islands.
Topped of by carting the anchor all the way aft. Charging into the anchorage under full sail and letting it go.
Brought it up quite nicely right where we wanted to be.
Then went ashore to BBQ some fresh oysters and enjoy a few beers on the beach.
One of those silly little things I enjoy.
Beating through the narrows.
So long as I can still make trees I leave the engine of.
If I can’t make any trees I might put it on for a bit.
Part of the fun is finding the back eddies.

 

[Skylark]

I don’t think so. What we’re saying is that it’s of no practical use in the real world, for 90 odd % of us. Who, apart from race boats and sailing schools, sails their boat with a full crew of competent adults?

I don’t see a correlation between honed sailing skills and the need for a fully crewed boat.

Failure at sea does happen. Batteries go flat, fuel filters clogg, line gets wrapped around props.

I don’t recall mentioning sailing into a berth with yanked-on sail on the back stay.

The CS course syllabus aims to elevate student skill, confidence and competence. A modern boat, particularly with reefed sails, is very manoeuvrable.

For example, in the case of engine failing to start, should the skipper be able to sail to an anchorage or through a row of moorings to pick up a buoy? Depending upon conditions, it can be perfectly safe to sail on to a pontoon berth. In other cases, it would be safer to moor elsewhere. That judgement is made by a skilful and experienced skipper, n’est ce pas?

 

[Daydream believer]

Note that the 'skipper' bit of Coastal Skipper is v. important. (This was a steep learning curve for me, as I'd done much of my prior sailing either actually or effectively single-handed, or with familiar crew who didn't need much in the way of explicit instructions.) Communicating to the crew what you're intending to happen, what you want each to do, what adjustments you want as the situation unfolds, changes of plan/instructions etc., what cruel and unusual punishments you will mete out to anyone falling short of expectations, and above all exuding confidence you know what you're doing and what's going to happen next?.

Hope that helps.

So telling them to go below & stay out of the b..y way does not count then?

 

[Chiara’s slave]

I don’t see a correlation between honed sailing skills and the need for a fully crewed boat.

Failure at sea does happen. Batteries go flat, fuel filters clogg, line gets wrapped around props.

I don’t recall mentioning sailing into a berth with yanked-on sail on the back stay.

The CS course syllabus aims to elevate student skill, confidence and competence. A modern boat, particularly with reefed sails, is very manoeuvrable.

For example, in the case of engine failing to start, should the skipper be able to sail to an anchorage or through a row of moorings to pick up a buoy? Depending upon conditions, it can be perfectly safe to sail on to a pontoon berth. In other cases, it would be safer to moor elsewhere. That judgement is made by a skilful and experienced skipper, n’est ce pas?

Judgement. You try any of that sh1t in my boat and it will and in tears, unless the wind is very very light. Flat batteries and ropes round props are not major problems to her, just tight spaces under sail. I would always choose a swinging mooring, or anchoring well away from everyone if I had no engine. She’s too light and flighty to consider any other course of action. A different port if I couldn't find what I needed.

 

[Birdseye]

They’re not allowed in our local harbour. And if you told them your engine had failed, they’d take you under tow.

So every time a dinghy comes in or out, they tow it? Surprising!

Out of interest, what harbour is this?

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Yarmouth. The sailing club are obliged to tow their dinghy fleet, but rarely transit the harbour, maybe for that reason. The XOD fleet of RSYC on the moorings outside must also be towed, if going in for maintenance or lifting. The harbour will occasionally do that, more usually by the club boatmen

 

[Stemar]

Judgement. You try any of that sh1t in my boat and it will and in tears, unless the wind is very very light. Flat batteries and ropes round props are not major problems to her, just tight spaces under sail. I would always choose a swinging mooring, or anchoring well away from everyone if I had no engine. She’s too light and flighty to consider any other course of action. A different port if I couldn't find what I needed.

Well, ISTM that it's a matter of using an appropriate approach to a situation for the vessel and her crew. An easily manoeuvrable boat with a full crew will be capable of things a flightier boat with one person aboard wouldn't (shouldn't!) dream of, and vice versa. Know your boat, know your crew's skill level - and, most importantly, your own - and act appropriately. That to me is what seamanship is about.

Like the old joke about tomatoes being fruit, being able to tack up a crowded narrow channel is skill, not doing it because it's inconsiderate is seamanship.

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

I’m perfectly able to do all of the mentioned stunts on a keelboat with 4 or 5 crew, but honestly, hanking a spare jib onto a backstay to get into your berth… who has one that handy, and about 90% of us are effectively short handed. I only ever sail with my wife. I’d suggest to an instructor that he askes her to undertake some pointless task, and see what she says. After about 10 000 miles of inshore sailing, she may have come to notice a thing or 2

I thought the small jib on the backstay was to prevent a light boat veering at anchor?

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

Judgement. You try any of that sh1t in my boat and it will and in tears, unless the wind is very very light. Flat batteries and ropes round props are not major problems to her, just tight spaces under sail. I would always choose a swinging mooring, or anchoring well away from everyone if I had no engine. She’s too light and flighty to consider any other course of action. A different port if I couldn't find what I needed.

Reefed sails, see above.

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

So every time a dinghy comes in or out, they tow it? Surprising!

Out of interest, what harbour is this?

Presumably the club to which the dinghies are attached and which is organising the course/ race, will tow them in groups, using their safety boats?

 

[Daydream believer]

I think that people who are concerned about manouvers in harbour without engine should watch a fleet of mini transats in a French port, or better still a fleet of Dragons at the Belgian Dragon championships in Ostend. They sail in & out of harbour very easily with just a sniff of the paddle if needed. Rarely do I see any needing a tow.
I did sail down the creek & into the berth at Bradwell in 20kts of wind, some years ago, when I ran out of fuel. But I did have 2 lively crew (one being my son- "Go on dad - Give it a go dad- You can do it dad, what are you waiting for?? etc etc ) egging me on.

 

[Uricanejack]

As to whether or not it’s a useful skill is up to you.
riding a tight figure 8 round some cones on my MC might not be particularly useful iether.

on occasions with different boats I’ve had some kind of engine problems.
which has a tendency to happen at interesting moments.
your boat may be much more reliable than mine tend to be.

I take the point of view I have a sailboat where the engine is an auxiliary and a bit of a luxury which makes life easier.
So when the engine quits. Which my rather ancient 3GM has a tendency to do.
or more accurately I shut it down because the high temp alarm is going again.

No big deal. The ability to just sail to where I’m going comes in handy.
then sort engine at my leisure rather than trying to bugger about sorting it underway.
particularly since this tends to happen when I’m in a relatively confined area.
which is why I had the engine running in the first place.

I could just get a new engine. But this one works ok mostly.
or I could just be a more diligent engineer. But every so often I forget it’s about time I topped up the coolant.

Just a small habit which has paid off a few times
I don’t leave the dock, mooring or anchorage without have my haliards attached to head of my sails and the sheets rigged and ready to go.
Or take them off until after I secure the boat.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Presumably the club to which the dinghies are attached and which is organising the course/ race, will tow them in groups, using their safety boats?

Exactly so.

And attaching halyards, of course. Just because I would never voluntarily sail in confined waters doesn't mean I couldn’t at least attempt to mitigate the consequences of engine failure by the first means available.

 

[Uricanejack]

Just wondering if you have used the "bucket" during instruction . Not something I have tried myself.

Depending on tide and current, used in wind shadow areas of a marina say, a man at the bow with a bucket and line , thrown forward and hauled in . I believe a metal (clang) type bucket is best. I seem to remember JG saying it works.

Never tried a bucket.
I have used a drouge or Small sea anchor to achieve the desired result, by throwing it out in the direction you want to go then pulling it in.
It was on a course. Of course.
Should you ever find yourself on a raft with the desire to move it.
it actually works quite well.

 

[Uricanejack]

I kinda remember him writing about it in his excellent ' let's do it under sail' series, I think for pbo. I would imagine it would have to be when the current is slack.

What I have tried with moderate success is steering a long keel yacht astern with a bucket on 3 or 4 metres of line off the bow. That was in Haslar Creek. In the limited time we had, it seemed to work.

Had some sport with a hanked on storm jib up the backstay on a couple of different yachts.

Just takes a bit of lateral thinking. And someone else's yacht.

Many moons ago. I taught basic sailing on English Bay in Cal 20’s.
One of the requirements to achieve an instructor qual. Had been to single hand a small keel boat (Cal 20) round a basic course with no rudder.

while instructing it was never part of the basic syllabus I taught. Yet at some point in the proceedings someone would often ask. “What would you do if you lost the rudder”.

I have an odd sense of humour. My response was always.
“I’ve no idea. Why don’t we try and find out”
At which point I would reach over the stern pull the pin out the Pintel and lift the rudder off and into the cockpit.
Then Let ‘em figure it out,
I always enjoyed the reaction,

After sailing all the various points of sail by adjusting the sheets.
pulling out a paddle to see if it would help.
it’s was really quite effective as a steering oar
My old C&C 24 would sail about quite happily with no rudder. As will a Catalina 22, 25 & 27
I only tried it once with the 27, I almost dropped it.

Haven’t tried it with my C&C 35.

 

[capnsensible]

Many moons ago. I taught basic sailing on English Bay in Cal 20’s.
One of the requirements to achieve an instructor qual. Had been to single hand a small keel boat (Cal 20) round a basic course with no rudder.

while instructing it was never part of the basic syllabus I taught. Yet at some point in the proceedings someone would often ask. “What would you do if you lost the rudder”.

I have an odd sense of humour. My response was always.
“I’ve no idea. Why don’t we try and find out”
At which point I would reach over the stern pull the pin out the Pintel and lift the rudder off and into the cockpit.
Then Let ‘em figure it out,
I always enjoyed the reaction,

After sailing all the various points of sail by adjusting the sheets.
pulling out a paddle to see if it would help.
it’s was really quite effective as a steering oar
My old C&C 24 would sail about quite happily with no rudder. As will a Catalina 22, 25 & 27
I only tried it once with the 27, I almost dropped it.

Haven’t tried it with my C&C 35.

In lighter winds an an AWB its a fair challenge to lock the rudder and steering using crew weight shifting around.

I had more success with dragging a spinnaker pole astern at right angles to the yacht centre line, each end onto a cockpit winch and adjusting the angle to Steer.

Spent many, many happy hours sailing around the Solent on a Sadler 34 that we used to race, cruise and lateral think all ways of achieving aims like always assuming engine has failed, what are we gonna do.

In real world, all that practice has helped me no end on occasions where the propulsion set has failed for a number of different reasons. Especially when living aboard with my wife and all our worldly possesions, we sailed into a couple of places so I could fix the donk.

Back to the OP, passing on some of that hard won knowledge to trainee coastal skippers is highly rewarding. Like.

 

[srm]

Handling your boat close to fixed objects, as opposed to buoys in open water, gives insight as to how the boat responds to sail trim and rudder. This may be different to how she handles under power. If you do not think this is of use or interest, that is your choice. Fortunately, we are all free to use our boats as we wish.

In Denmark it was interesting to see a number of engineless boats sailing into and out of the yacht harbours in fresh conditions and mooring between a pair of stern posts and the pier.

I thought the small jib on the backstay was to prevent a light boat veering at anchor?

A jib is usually cut with curvature to generate lift. Likewise the mizzen on a ketch. Both will generate sideways force and are likely to cause the stern to sail from side to side. Fishing boats that use steadying sails when riding to their gear have them cut flat, in smaller sizes I have seen alloy or similar sheet material used.

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

Exactly so.

And attaching halyards, of course. Just because I would never voluntarily sail in confined waters doesn't mean I couldn’t at least attempt to mitigate the consequences of engine failure by the first means available.

I was replying to Birdseye's Post#47....