Defibrillators

[jrudge]

I wont mention names as it is in poor taste, however before the forum announcement I saw that someone had had a heart attack on their boat in Mallorca.

Close to home as I am a similar age and the boat it in a similar location.

I wondered if it were worth getting a defibrillator on the boat. I spend some time there one my own - but usually in port - and spend several months a year in the company of friends and family on board.

Medial assistance in the case of a heart attack is needed urgently, however if one were at anchor then realistically this must be half an hour away ( minimum and of course quite easily more) by the time you have hauled anchor, summoned help and tied up in a marina. You dont have half an hour - you have minutes.

Defibrillators are affordable and now fully automated - including audio guidance as to CPS and so on.

This model is waster resistant etc and £699 + VAT with the offer code HEARTSINE50

https://www.medisave.co.uk/heartsine-samaritan-pad-360p-fully-automatic-aed-defibrillator.html

I have asked if there are quantity discounts available should anyone else be interested.

It is potentially better value than the latest boat upgrade that we all ( myself included) invest in.

Disaster does strike. 2 years ago I was at a party round the corner. The caterer collapsed and stopped breathing. I was on mouth to mouth and anther guest on CPR ( my arm was in plaster so it was not going to be me). He lived and bought us a drink in the pub about 3 months later. So suddenly the first aid course done 25 years prior unexpectedly comes into being in an instant. Medical help was there within 5-6 minutes ( the amount of kit a paramedic has in his pack is astonishing) - but at sea the medical help is not going to arrive that fast.

There will be others on here with specialist knowledge and I would be interested in points of view as to how worthwhile or otherwise these are considered to be.

Speaking personally for £838 including the VAT it would seem a sensible investment.

 

[BruceK]

I had a minor heart attack on the boat as a prelude to a bigger one. Problem is I didn't really recognise it for what it was at the time and my heart didn't stop. I have given it some thought, but what scares me most would to be resuscitated only to find that due to the delays of intervention that other damage was done that would significantly alter quality of life. So having one aboard would be great but I think further CPR etc training on the subject in addition to First Aid is probably the first course of action.

 

[Hurricane]

We have had one installed here locally in Devon and administrated by a local retired doctor.
Hangs is a barn in the village close to where we would need it.
We all did a short course on the use of the defibrillator and First Aid refreshers etc - run by the retired doctor.
All very worthwhile - I don't think it has been needed - yet.
Maybe NiviceRod will be able to comment further - I think he knows more about how it was acquired.

 

[rubberduck]

Put me down for two, one for work as well.
Just a shame we are thinking of this now & not earlier.

 

[iapetus]

But isn't a defibrillator only needed in very specific cases, (don't know the ratio, just remembering my old first aid courses) or even unnecessary or dangerous in some conditions?

 

[jrudge]

But isn't a defibrillator only needed in very specific cases, (don't know the ratio, just remembering my old first aid courses) or even unnecessary or dangerous in some conditions?

The current generation are fully automated - so it makes the decision to shock based on ECG, not the user.

if the answer is no it then instructs you to do CPR. then stops you and assesses once again.

The users rolls is to turn it on and stick pads on the chest as directed.

 

[Firefly625]

I don't believe anyone will disagree with anything you have said.

We are in the throws of buying one for our business, we are a busy site with around 100 visitors to our showroom and 1500 cars filling up at our fuel station a day. You may wonder why we have not had one before... blame the directors costs for the one we are going for about £1800, includes storage locker and training, and its not waterproof.

However, the thought of buying one for the boat had not crossed my mind! But I know of a lovely lady who had a massive heart attack sailing her Oyster with her husband and grand children in the Solent a couple of years ago.. and £838 to possibly save a life is an amount anyone of us would pay over and over.

Thank you for posting. Maybe MBY will do an article on Defibrillators for boats?

 

[markc]

I have asked if there are quantity discounts available should anyone else be interested.

I'd be up for 1, maybe 2

 

[penberth3]

This has been covered recently:

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?497155-Defibrillator-on-board

 

[Divemaster1]

A defibrillator is definitely a piece of kit you hope you'll never have to use, but if you, as a trained first aider (or un-trained, which most of your guests will be), are going to invest in one you ought to look at something that gives you good guidance on what to do and an indication on how well you are administering the first aid (CPR in this case) ... including giving that electric shock that stops the heart and enables the re-start.

I just took delivery of a bit more expensive Zoll AEDPlus, which was selected for a couple of good reasons;
- A five year shelf life and user replaceable batteries (after use)
- Not all cardiac arrests will need a shock, but all require goo CPR, this one give people giving CPR real-time feedback on rate and depth of chest compression (great for inexperienced) and give text (for hearing impaired) + vocal guidance in addition to having visual prompts
- finally, it will only deliver a shock if the sensors determine that it is needed.

Anyone who have been in a situation of administering CPR know how (surprising) physically hard it is to maintain rhythm and compression depth over time, so any help that can be given to those un-trained around you when you need that moment of re-capturing your breath is of great value.

Don't get me wrong, a excellent (and topical) thread subject .... as a seasoned first aider and rescue diver myself, I firmly believe that any kit that may assist or help saving life is extremely valuable...

 

[CLB]

This has been covered recently:

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?497155-Defibrillator-on-board

Yes, interesting. That thread, I think, was more yachties than MOBOers and definitely had a more negative reaction than this one is getting so far.

I wonder if recent tragic events in our own online community is bringing home the reality to us. They may be expensive, it may never get used, but I think, like a liferaft or EPIRB, you might one day be glad you had it onboard, and equally you would be very happy never to have to use it, or have it used on you. Most of us are either at, or fast approaching, a higher risk age.

 

[Firefly625]

Having been on the cusp of ordering a Zoll, as St Johns Ambulance recommended for our business as I mentioned, we are now reconsidering to rent instead.

£1 a day...

https://www.defibmachines.co.uk/aed/defibrillator-rental-packages/

 

[beebok]

I understand massaging the heart is important prior to medical help being arriving.
Getting the compressions right for the heart massage is not easy in a stressful situation.
I saw this product with a German chandler,saw the demo and thought it would help.
https://www.cardiofirstangel.com its a simple device and may help getting the heart massaged.
Have one at home and on the boat.Hope we never need it!

 

[petem]

I certainly agree that a discussion about Defibrillators is a healthy one but it's far more important to have regular blood pressure tests and address the underlying causes of heart disease (we all know what these are but I wonder hoe many of us listen to our doctors)!

Whilst on the subject of Cardiac Risk, I urge anyone with children or grand children to read the following link and get their kid's hearts checked out.

https://www.c-r-y.org.uk/

This is an absolutely fantastic charity / facility and it doesn't even cost anything (other than a generous donation).

 

[Nigelpickin]

I certainly agree that a discussion about Defibrillators is a healthy one but it's far more important to have regular blood pressure tests and address the underlying causes of heart disease (we all know what these are but I wonder hoe many of us listen to our doctors)!

Whilst on the subject of Cardiac Risk, I urge anyone with children or grand children to read the following link and get their kid's hearts checked out.

https://www.c-r-y.org.uk/

This is an absolutely fantastic charity / facility and it doesn't even cost anything (other than a generous donation).

Completely agree, 3 years ago (at the age of 47) I suffered a massive PE, whilst on the boat in Brittany, 13 clots across both lungs, subsequent tests showed mild heart disease - we don’t go to sea without BP monitor or Fragmin needles for that matter....following the recent and tragic news, I have to admit that I started shopping for an HDU -

My Specialist thinks that I’m bonkers for carrying on @ sea however a very good friend of mine was lucky to survive a heart attack > 20 years ago and has been enjoying full time boating ever since - I couldn’t stand to give up on this part of our lives.

So we shall install a unit on the boat and take the course at the local hospital - hopefully never to be of practical use but against the cost of half a tank of fuel, it’s got to be money well spent?

 

[jrudge]

I certainly agree that a discussion about Defibrillators is a healthy one but it's far more important to have regular blood pressure tests and address the underlying causes of heart disease (we all know what these are but I wonder hoe many of us listen to our doctors)!

Whilst on the subject of Cardiac Risk, I urge anyone with children or grand children to read the following link and get their kid's hearts checked out.

https://www.c-r-y.org.uk/

This is an absolutely fantastic charity / facility and it doesn't even cost anything (other than a generous donation).

I agree to a point but this assumes an event is predictable - and I understand it is not.

Sure if you are massively over weight, take no exercise and eat fried chicken then you are more likely to have some form of event, but only more likely - and the slim fit person is less likely - but only less likely!

Serviced engines still go wrong!

 

[Portofino]

You need to be completely competent at CPR and quick to start CPR within say 1 min - and to do that take training on how to diagnose the unconscious none breathing no cardiac out put casualty.

Oxygenation is paramount to save brain death .
So you ideally need a pressurised 02 source and a bag to deliver it or at least assist with the breaths in CPR .
Just to be clear it’s CPR first and foremost .You never stop that ,the AED is not a magic wand .
An AED is usefully if it’s ready with in 5 mins of the collapse and fitted correctly.
Then there’s another issues gastric reflux to deal with .You ideally need a portable suction device to clear the oral cavity of the gastric contents that often reflux .
A post-mortem report of gastric contents forced into the bronchi does not make pleasing reading by the relatives .

My advice would be

Carry some GTN spray in your 1st aid box
If you want to go down the defibrillator route AEDs seek training in
CPR 1 st master that and keep up refresher courses
Carry pressurised O2 and a bag , **
Carry a portable suction device

Success rate of public CPR with or without a defibrillator is low single figure to zero %
Hospital CPR / defibrillator a bit better depending on which study 15 % is a fig banded about .

So why do we do it .?

Medico legal reasons —— so you can sit at a coroners inquest with the family present and look them in the eye and say you did everything you could .

I can’t stress how time is very important in diagnosing the none breathing zero cardiac output casualty then starting CPR along with oxygen infusion asap .

** intubation- go and learn how to do that and carry intubators 3 sizes

 

[Portofino]

Double post I pad connection issues

 

[Firefly625]

god it gets more complicated...

its one of those things, the more you know the less you know..

 

[adey]

Success rate of public CPR with or without a defibrillator is low single figure to zero %
Hospital CPR / defibrillator a bit better depending on which study 15 % is a fig banded about .

Really, almost zero chance of saving someone with a public defib?
If you get to someone within a couple of minutes with a public defib their chances are actually pretty good. Actually better than 50/50. Your odds of surviving if there's no defib and you wait for an ambulance are single figures so having one available is definitely worthwhile. The defib talks the operator through how to use it and it only shocks if it needs to.