Deck Saloons
- Thread starter pmagowan
- Start date
Babylon
Well-known member
To paraphrase an old saying: 'there are those that build boats, and those that sail them.'
How long do you have, are you suggesting that you'd work on the new ship yourself or pay a builder, and would it be wood, metal or plastic?
D
Deleted member 36384
Guest
Why does it matter, if building is his thing that should be all that matters. If you search on the OPs name you will find al the answers to your questions and more. pmagown appears to be a detail man, and resourceful, his plans are quite well thought out.
pmagowan
Well-known member
Thanks BoB,
I intend to build it myself for the fun of it. I already have a boat for sailing. I am currently building the workshop for it, then I will build the temporary shed. It will take a long time but I enjoy woodwork and building in general. I hope to get it right so it will be the last boat I build. It will be a strip plank, cold moulded composite construction, built mostly out of western red ceder, perhaps with mahogany veneers and encapsulated inside and out with a layer of fibre reinforced epoxy. The exact layup of fibre is yet to be determined and may just be glass. The construction method will allow for a monocoque structure with minimal framing and reduced waste in a one off. It will be very strong. It will have a 'semi-long' keel and a skeg rudder. I intend to design it myself also, for my sins, and am signing up for a distance learning naval architecture coarse which will teach me about CAD. The frames and much of the internals will be created on a CNC machine which I have already designed and will build when I get the workshop finished. The cnc will allow me to build a scale model for testing purposes also.
It is not what everyone would enjoy doing but I like every stage of it. I like projects like this and regularly get involved in some form of design, construction crazyness.
I intend to build it myself for the fun of it. I already have a boat for sailing. I am currently building the workshop for it, then I will build the temporary shed. It will take a long time but I enjoy woodwork and building in general. I hope to get it right so it will be the last boat I build. It will be a strip plank, cold moulded composite construction, built mostly out of western red ceder, perhaps with mahogany veneers and encapsulated inside and out with a layer of fibre reinforced epoxy. The exact layup of fibre is yet to be determined and may just be glass. The construction method will allow for a monocoque structure with minimal framing and reduced waste in a one off. It will be very strong. It will have a 'semi-long' keel and a skeg rudder. I intend to design it myself also, for my sins, and am signing up for a distance learning naval architecture coarse which will teach me about CAD. The frames and much of the internals will be created on a CNC machine which I have already designed and will build when I get the workshop finished. The cnc will allow me to build a scale model for testing purposes also.
It is not what everyone would enjoy doing but I like every stage of it. I like projects like this and regularly get involved in some form of design, construction crazyness.
NormanS
Well-known member
Ooh! Sounds as if it might be very difficult to repair, in the event of damage. However, best of luck with your project.
Buck Turgidson
Well-known member
Sure but by that definition half the boats marketed as DS are not.
pmagowan
Well-known member
No, it should be easy enough. For a start it will require quite an effort to damage any more than the surface layer which can be repaired in the same way as GRP. More extensive damage would be rare but, depending on the type, can be repaired by fairing in more laminate in much the same way as a plywood repair. The only non-catastrophic damage I can imagine being full thickness would be a puncture type and that can simply be plugged. The only real risk from damage would be a very tardy repair job that allowed significant moisture to breach the outer layer of GRP. This would just be a bit silly as it could be avoided with a dab of epoxy even as a temporary measure.
NormanS
Well-known member
Fair enough, but having built a strip planked, edge glued, and nailed, yacht in the past, I am very aware of the difficulty presented if you were unlucky enough to have significant damage. Good luck.
Tranona
Well-known member
That is correct. Terms like this are often used loosely, particularly by marketing people. There is no formal body for approving definitions - even if there is agreement about what the definition is. These are man made terms and they get their meaning by usage and particularly through shared meaning - that is both parties to the conversation have the same understanding of what they mean.
All snooks is saying is that logically if you take the two components of the term then it describes a "saloon" that is at "deck" level. This was indeed the origin of the term, but it referred to large yachts which did indeed have a saloon area stuck directly on top of the deck. Most modern interpretations of the idea do not, as you have to step down from the deck into the saloon so the floor is lower than the outside deck.
However, just to confuse matters some of the Nauticats I referred to earlier have within the raised deck area the saloon portion (for seating at the same level as the deck, but the navigation and steering area at a lower level, but under the same roof.
All the OP was interested in was whether he could design his boat to get an inside steering position and higher seating area, and he used as his reference point a Rustler model that is described as a deck saloon to differentiate it from a similar design from the same builder that does not have these features.
snooks
Active member
Indeed. Neither is a Bavaria 34, 34ft or the Allures 39.9, 39.9 ft.
Manufacturers have decided all they need to call a boat a 'deck saloon' is large coachroof windows, the same way estate agents now call a bedsit a 'studio' flat. So in order to compete, or to attract new buyers, they follow the latest craze. But the true definition is having a saloon at deck level, and that's the one I, and others on the magazine stick with.
Although there were larger yachts with saloons at deck level or ships with saloon decks, as far as I've been able to find out it derived in the late 80's possibly from Sirius Yachts from their 31 (which initially looked like a motorsailer, although it was the same hull as the original 31) so they called it a 'Deck Salon', so people would stop thinking she was a motorsailer! I've yet to fully verify this story, but the way it was told makes sense. So she might have been the first boat called a deck salon (deck saloon) but she wasn't the first boat with her saloon at deck level.
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snooks
Active member
Funnily enough, and as an aside, before this thread came out I started off April's boat test (a proper deck saloon) by writing:
The moniker ‘Deck Saloon’ is so overused that it’s come to just mean bigger coachroof windows, really it should only be used to describe boats with their saloons at deck level, with a view, not just more light.
The moniker ‘Deck Saloon’ is so overused that it’s come to just mean bigger coachroof windows, really it should only be used to describe boats with their saloons at deck level, with a view, not just more light.
NormanS
Well-known member
I like to think of it as a saloon, with windows at a height so that seated people have a good view of what's happening around them, also having a helming position, but not just a wheelhouse. Mine has three steps down from the weather deck, and then two steps down into the galley and forward cabin, and equally two steps down into the aft cabin.
Within the saloon, the area on one side, with seating and table etc, has its sole raised higher than the other side which is largely taken up with wheel, console, access etc.
I have come to dislike the longstanding yacht designs where once down into the saloon, one could be anywhere, and can't see anything, but that's just personal preference.
Within the saloon, the area on one side, with seating and table etc, has its sole raised higher than the other side which is largely taken up with wheel, console, access etc.
I have come to dislike the longstanding yacht designs where once down into the saloon, one could be anywhere, and can't see anything, but that's just personal preference.
snooks
Active member
I don't feel the ability to helm a boat from inside is an intrinsic part of being a deck saloon, although it is often possible. Also with technology as it is you just need a 10cm square to fit the head unit of an autopilot. I think if you're going to pilot the boat from the saloon, that would be a pilot saloon. 
Buck Turgidson
Well-known member
Now this is the sort of info that would make a good article in one of the hosts magazines. Having just read the Feb PBO and YM they could certainly do with a history section to add a little depth. And perhaps a TLAs for beginners section including MFD!!
Barbican
Member
+1 much like ours, Southerly refer to it as a raised saloon, we looked at many designs, but the only boats that had the saloon floor at the same level as the cockpit floor were Cats, and the Moody (there may well be others that we didn't view). The design I liked most was the 535, but they stopped building before I could get my act together. Just as well, I'm better off with kidneys etc.
pmagowan
Well-known member
I will be using a profiled strip so it will be edge glued only, minimal or no nailing required. Did you put cold moulding over the top of the strip planks. The construction is quite different from the traditional strip plank canoes since the strip planking is essetially just a mould (with structural benefits) on which to place the cold moulding rather than creating a seperate mould that does not form part of the boat.
pmagowan
Well-known member
So, now we have some understanding of the terminology...
What do we think about a steering position? Is it best simply to control the autopilot from here or is a wheel better? A wheel takes up space and may affect the ability to cram in a proper nav table. However, a wheel feels nicer to use than a button or joystick.
What do we think about a steering position? Is it best simply to control the autopilot from here or is a wheel better? A wheel takes up space and may affect the ability to cram in a proper nav table. However, a wheel feels nicer to use than a button or joystick.
NormanS
Well-known member
Wow! You are giving yourself a lot of work.
The stripped plank boat that I built, long time ago now, was a Folkboat. It was just 1.5" x 0.75" strips, bevelled as required to fit, glued and edge nailed. The only cold moulding I have ever done was building Flying Fifteens. So no, I've never combined the two methods. I have always had wooden boats, until ten years ago, when I finally saw the light with GRP.
NormanS
Well-known member
So, now we have some understanding of the terminology...
What do we think about a steering position? Is it best simply to control the autopilot from here or is a wheel better? A wheel takes up space and may affect the ability to cram in a proper nav table. However, a wheel feels nicer to use than a button or joystick.
There's a temptation to do away with the inside wheel, and just use the autopilot. You have to consider what you might be using the inside position for. I never use it for sailing, or close quarter manoevering, so you might say it's not needed. One major exception is if you find yourself motoring into heavy weather. I don't like to ask the autopilot to cope with big seas, and conditions could easily make it more sensible to steer from inside, so I still have an inside wheel.
snooks
Active member
So, now we have some understanding of the terminology...
What do we think about a steering position? Is it best simply to control the autopilot from here or is a wheel better? A wheel takes up space and may affect the ability to cram in a proper nav table. However, a wheel feels nicer to use than a button or joystick.
Autopilot. When it get's bad enough to go below, leave the AP to it. Wheels take up a lot of room and add all sorts of complexity with hydraulic pipes to the steering system. The AP is one wire N2K wire :0)
I have the head unit for my tiller pilot with my instruments over the companionway. So when it's really 'orrid I just sit in the companionway and look out through the sprayhood, and press buttons if I need to change course, but I'm still in my foulies if I need to be on deck in an instant.
