Deck Saloons

[westhinder]

YM haven't tested the 310, that was PBO

But we have tested the 35 and the 40. I only wrote the test of the 40.

However I have also spent a lot of time on the Sirius boats having shot the photography for the 310 brochure and video, 360 tour and brochure imagery for the 40, I also recently shot video of the Sirius 35.

Snooks, are you really saying you shot the pictures for the brochure and wrote a review of the same boat? How can that review be in any way unbiased if you have commercial links with the builder, links which by your own admission are not restricted to one case?
I am deeply disappointed at what to me as a professional broadcast journalist is an unacceptable conflict of interest.

 

[LadyInBed]

I love my DS for all the above reasons.
I have noted that there are two basic styles of DS, those as photoed above with a 'cockpit' saloon or could be called a 'deckhouse' and those with a standard yacht saloon, but raised up like these (mine is in the centre (Colvic Countess)). As you can see, they are not uncommon! Another advantage not mentioned above is that you only have about three steps down to the saloon rather than the half dozen in a standard yacht.

 

[snooks]

Snooks, are you really saying you shot the pictures for the brochure and wrote a review of the same boat? How can that review be in any way unbiased if you have commercial links with the builder, links which by your own admission are not restricted to one case?
I am deeply disappointed at what to me as a professional broadcast journalist is an unacceptable conflict of interest.

I can see exactly where you are coming from which is why, from when Kieran (YM's Ed) asked me to test the boats, I highlighted this as a big concern. We knew it was, so we worked together to ensure that we could make it work. I am always totally open with Kieran about who I'm working for and I'll flag any possible conflict of interest at the earliest possible opportunity.

In the interest of openness and clarity, the Sirius 40DS is the only yacht that I have tested and then gone onto shoot the brochure. If you feel I was too praiseworthy of the Sirius 40DS please read Chris Beeson's report of the Sirius 35DS before making your conclusion. Other manufacturers have used work that I've shot during the test for their own publicity and also I've created other work for manufacturers, but not before any boat I've tested.

Any commercial work I do for my clients is on separate days (and often separate trips) to my YM work, the day of the test is always before any commercial work – often shooting the boat in different ways because the magazine's requirements are different from my clients. The only benefit to Sirius was that I had a greater selection of sailing images to choose from for the YM report - but if the day of the test is foul weather we have used mfgs brochure images in the past, so event this benefit was not exclusive.

I've never tried to hide I'm a commercial photographer, the marine industry is a small industry and therefore, cross over at some point was inevitable - otherwise, I'd run out of clients or YM would run out of boats for me to test. Kieran and I knew this and you can contact anyone I've tested for or worked for to see if they feel I have been unfairly critical because they are not my client, or unfairly glowing because they are. It's my name, it's my reputation.

When I'm working for Yachting Monthly my priority is giving the reader a fair and balanced report. I don't care whether the manufacturer sells any boats as a result of my report, or ad sales sell any more adverts, that not what I see I'm there for. Any commercial connection with the manufacturer bears no weight at all on a report. My clients know and understand that on the days I work for them they can tell me what to do, but on the days I'm working for Yachting Monthly they have no say in my work, what I photograph, how I photograph or what I criticise. Everyone is treated the same.

I'll often sell my work to manufacturers after the test is written and published, but whether they buy my work, or not, has no bearing on the test as it's usually written and printed by the time they contact me.

I cannot afford for any bias to creep into my Yachting Monthly work, because if did it will be the end of my career - it's that's simple. The marine industry is small, so I can't let it happen and I won't let it happen.

 

[Malo37]

You can have one of these

With one of these

And one of these

And one of these

 

[NormanS]

Or you can get a Cromarty36, but you'll lucky, as not that many were built.

 

[westhinder]

Graham, thanks for this extensive reply.
It shows you are aware of the risks involved in this combination of roles. I appreciate the marine industry is too small to make a decent living from only one of the roles. Moreover I have no reason to doubt your personal honesty in the way you try to deal with this situation.
The trouble is that perception will always be against you, and you know how powerful perception is. No matter how hard you argue that you behave in an impartial way, there will always remain a shadow of doubt.
For a public broadcaster impartiality and credibility are the most important qualities we can offer the audience, hence my strong reaction. The balance may be different for a commercial venture selling magazines in a specific field of interest, although I doubt it can be all that different. The least the readers are entitled to is an open statement of fact, so they can make their own minds up whether they will go along with it, or not.

 

[snooks]

Graham, thanks for this extensive reply.
It shows you are aware of the risks involved in this combination of roles. I appreciate the marine industry is too small to make a decent living from only one of the roles. Moreover I have no reason to doubt your personal honesty in the way you try to deal with this situation.
The trouble is that perception will always be against you, and you know how powerful perception is. No matter how hard you argue that you behave in an impartial way, there will always remain a shadow of doubt.
For a public broadcaster impartiality and credibility are the most important qualities we can offer the audience, hence my strong reaction. The balance may be different for a commercial venture selling magazines in a specific field of interest, although I doubt it can be all that different. The least the readers are entitled to is an open statement of fact, so they can make their own minds up whether they will go along with it, or not.

I agree with that, which is why I don't let the lines blur, I'm either Graham Snook Photography OR Yachting Monthly's Technical Editor, there is no 'in between' in my eyes, even though I'm still Snooks, the person.

Without my YM work, I would have to push my photography more (which isn't an issue), but I enjoy my Yachting Monthly work. In an ideal world I'd like to keep the two completely separate and in the future that may be possible, so the sailing side (sailing yachts up to say 60ft) is just Yachting Monthly, and the photography/video/360º tours within the marine industry is everything else, so there is no crossover, but in reality that's not financially sustainable in the present climate.

On my website ( http://grahamsnook.com Get a plug in there), Facebook ( http://www.facebook.com/grahamsnookphotography oh and again) and everywhere else, twitter, instagram etc, I'm open about who I am working for and who I've done work for and, on all of my work, you'll hopefully see a credit, I'm not trying to hide anything, because quite frankly I have nothing to hide.

I know I have to be very careful with how it could be percieved, which is why I am completely honest in my reviews, even if it means I might upset a mfg and there's the possibility of losing business for GSP. I'm happy and comfy with that prospect because, when I was first asked to write the tests, from the outset I identified conflicts and worked out a way I could reslove them. I decided I'd rather keep my YM work (and my integrity) then sell out to a boat mfg who makes boats with (what I consider to be) faults. If I feel something is wrong – and it isn't going to be corrected – readers deserve to know. Also if a mfg is going to take offence over what I write while I'm doing my job for YM, that doesn't bode well for being an easy client to work with for GSP :0)

Luckily it hasn't happened, good boats are being built and mfgs are grown up enough to know what I write isn't personal.

 

[Boo2]

I agree with Snooks and Tranona. I have been aboard my neighbours' Nordship 40 and it works really well. There is no point in having a raised coachroof if you do not have a 360° view when sitting down...

Does that imply the seating area needs to be raised wrt the walkway ? Otherwise you would need to stoop when standing or else have tall windows ?

Boo2

 

[NormanS]

Does that imply the seating area needs to be raised wrt the walkway ? Otherwise you would need to stoop when standing or else have tall windows ?

Boo2

Mine is.

 

[E39mad]

Lot's of choices - for true deck small(ish) deck saloon also look at the following:

Southerly 35RS (same hull as the 110).

The Vancouver 34 Pilot has a great layout with a midships cabin leaving full cockpit lockers both port and starboard.

Seastream 34 has been mentioned - Moody Eclipse 33 or 38, Westerly Riviera, Sadler Panorama 40 (not many built)

Fisher 34 and 37 have big enough wheelhouses for a table thus offering a 2nd saloon option.

Jeanneau Espace was a good design for its day.

I don't think the LM Vitesse had the saloon up top.

 

[prv]

Does that imply the seating area needs to be raised wrt the walkway ?

They usually are - often this lets the designer squeeze a small cabin in underneath, accessed from the lower level. Or failing that, even more storage :encouragement:

Pete

 

[smert]

So if deck saloons give excellent accommodation, what are the downsides? Presumably the extra superstructure compromises the sailing ability (extra windage). How is the visibility when helming from outside?

 

[prv]

So if deck saloons give excellent accommodation, what are the downsides?

Bit rubbish in the Med, which is where most boats are sold, so the big builders don't bother with them.

More expensive to build, hence to buy, so people say they'd like one but when push comes to shove they buy something else and a decent spray-hood. The limited new sales keeps the second-hand price up too.

Pete

 

[NormanS]

I wouldn't have one in the Med, or any warm place, but for cruising in more northern waters, they are great. Obviously, sailing performance is compromised by extra windage, beamy hulls etc, but just remember, "Gentlemen don't beat to windward".

 

[roblpm]

So if deck saloons give excellent accommodation, what are the downsides? Presumably the extra superstructure compromises the sailing ability (extra windage). How is the visibility when helming from outside?

Lack of sea berths?

 

[LadyInBed]

Lack of sea berths?

What do you mean by a sea berth?
My saloon isn't designed for kipping down in lively conditions, but I can, as I sail solo, also I have an armchair, so I can sit and rest my eyes.
If I had crew, there is the fwd cabin or the (lateral) aft cabin (mine)

 

[LadyInBed]

So if deck saloons give excellent accommodation, what are the downsides? Presumably the extra superstructure compromises the sailing ability (extra windage). How is the visibility when helming from outside?

Certainly mine doesn't point too well, but that is probably due to twin keels!
I had to up size my anchor, as the recommended one is for 'standard' yachts, now I sleep better.
I don't find viz an issue (I'm not a Solent sailor ), I can look round or over the saloon to windward, the same as any yacht, or through the saloon windows, to see under the sails to leeward.
I'm struggling to think of any real downsides!

 

[frans]

Does that imply the seating area needs to be raised wrt the walkway ? Otherwise you would need to stoop when standing or else have tall windows ?

Boo2

It seems inevitable to me that in a deck-saloon that offers direct outside view for a sitting person, the floorlevel beneath the seat needs to be raised relative to the walkway. Both standing and sitting person would have comparable head-level. If not, the deck-saloon would become rather high.

 

[snooks]

So if deck saloons give excellent accommodation, what are the downsides? Presumably the extra superstructure compromises the sailing ability (extra windage). How is the visibility when helming from outside?

They aren't the prettiest of yachts and also raising the boom raises the centre of effort, apart from that, they are great.

 

[prv]

They aren't the prettiest of yachts and also raising the boom raises the centre of effort, apart from that, they are great.

Lots of moderate pilothouse yachts are no higher than a spray hood would be, though, so I don't think a raised boom is inevitable. Obviously the ones with charter-cat-style wraparound windows and deck-level patio doors, yes.

Pete