Day Skipper v Yacht Master

[flaming]

some of the very worst skippers I've had the misfortune to sail with have been those most keen to deride the process with sneering 'zero to hero' type comments.

I'd agree with that. On my list of "never sailing with that idiot again" skippers - none hold a YM, and most deride tuition in any form....

 

[GrahamM376]

Can someone tell me why anyone should shell out lots of money to take a Yatchsmasters practical exam. I can understand doing the theory courses but if you have your own boat what do you gain by a practical course apart from a depleted bank account and a piece of paper?
Now if you got a blue ensign at the end I might consider it.

I can only speak for myself. I took up sailing in my 40's after years of gliding, had not grown up through dinghys, crewing other boats, chartering,etc. Although we had our own boat and had plenty of miles, was interested in gaining more knowledge - felt there must be different ways of doing things which, just sailing with swmbo, I wasn't learning.

I found the Coastal Skipper practical week (as it was called then) taught me a lot and pushed my limits. Hadn't intended to take the YM exam at the end of the week but was persuaded to have a go and was quite surprised when I passed. I don't see it as a status symbol but it's been useful in getting cheaper insurance.

 

[GrahamM376]

he has to be able to explain to his crew what he wants them to do, and how to do it - so crewing experience (however gained) is necessary.

Funnily enough, this was my weakest point when doing the CS week and YM exam. Sailing short handed one gets used to doing everything (whilst trailing a long handled brush), not having several crew to help out.

Delegating didn't come naturaly to me whereas the other two exam candidates who had lots of crewing hours but the bare minimum hours as skipper were used to "delegation" but lacked confidence with decision making.

 

[Barnacle Bill]

Funnily enough, this was my weakest point when doing the CS week and YM exam. Sailing short handed one gets used to doing everything (whilst trailing a long handled brush), not having several crew to help out.

But at least you knew what needed to be done, and could do it yourself. I sailed with one "Yachtmaster Offshore" who could barely tie on a fender, let alone reef a mainsail. I think he had passed his Yachtmaster exam by relying entirely on the competence of his crew, and it showed!

 

[PaulJS]

This is an interesting thread, and I'm probably one of the "worse" type of person mentioned in it so far as I don't own my own yacht and have done precious little sailing between the various courses I've attended - RYA 5 day dinghy sailing, Competent Crew, and Day Skipper practical.
However, the reason I started with the dinghy course was to get an idea of the basics of sailing, then a couple of years later I did CC because I wasn't sure, despite having spent all my working life at sea as an Engineer, that I would enjoy sailing a yacht.
I did that one in January this year and enjoyed it tremendously although we mostly had flukishly good weather.
Since then, thanks to a combination of work, house moving, **** weather and damned inconvenient tides while I've been home, I haven't even been able to get my dinghy's hull damp, but 3 weeks ago I went for a weeks sailing off Brittany on a school boat - having told the instructor that I didn't really think I was ready for DS due to my lack of experience but would just use the week to gain experience.
As it turned out I was really fortunate (at the expense of another student who was unfortunately unable to join the boat) as there was only myself and one other DS student on board, and thanks to a lifetime of working at sea, having studied quite a lot beforehand, and most importantly having a really good instructor and a willing and clever fellow student, I passed the DS.
I fully realise that this does not make me a "Skipper", but at least I'm now a lot safer than I would have been without any instruction and have some awareness of what I need to improve on.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that it doesn't matter what qualification we have, but what, and more importantly how we have been taught that matters, and how we act when sailing .
I have every intention of buying my own yacht in the not too distant future, but in recognition of my lack of sailing experience I will be bloody cautious about how, when, and where I sail...

ps. If anyone wants details of a good school in NW France PM me... No connection, just a very satisfied customer!

 

[alant]

Depends whether "years of experience" means lots of different boats in lots of different places and weather conditions with lots of different crews, or a couple of weekends experience repeated a couple of hundred times.

Re the "fast tracker" -- Think of a boat as a bus. How many years bus-driving experience did the bus driver have before he went on his bus-driving course? And how many more years was he required to have before he was allowed to drive a bus commercially? But do we question his right to earn a living by driving a bus? Do we ever stop to wonder whether the guy driving our particular bus knew nothing about bus driving a month ago?

PS The only reason I got a Yachtmaster was because I had been offered a job as a yacht skipper on the strength of RN paperwork, but getting it confirmed was conditional upon me being able to produce a Yachtmaster certificate before the start of the season (the 1979 season!)

+ the bus driver is from Poland or Uzbekestan, so hasn't driven in UK before.

 

[timbartlett]

But at least you knew what needed to be done, and could do it yourself. I sailed with one "Yachtmaster Offshore" who could barely tie on a fender, let alone reef a mainsail. I think he had passed his Yachtmaster exam by relying entirely on the competence of his crew, and it showed!

It's more likely that he's one of those "Yachtmasters" who thinks that the question paper at the end of his evening class course was the Yachtmaster exam, and the thing that says "Shorebased Course Completion Certificate is a Yachtmaster Certificate!

 

[Neil]

I'm about to do my shore-based CS/YM theory course, really just to reinforce the DS theory, which is the guts of the CS/YM course anyway, I believe. As a day-sailor only, most of the passage planning bits aren't really required; I did try and do passage plans as a theoretical exercise at home, but it's rather a sterile exercise. I may also do the CS practical next year, because my chartering experience showed me that I didn't know everything (surprise, surprise!), probably not even all the DS stuff.

While I haven't thought much about doing a YM exam, mainly because I doubt I'd be able to satisfy all the pre-exam requirements just sailing a day-sailer round Dublin Bay, but I might do it just to say I had it, but it wouldn't convince me that I was suddenly a master mariner.

One thing that I have learnt so far is that the concept of Seamanship is so wide, so all-encompassing, that nobody knows it all. All I can do is keep learning as much as I can.

 

[dslittle]

One thing that I have learnt so far is that the concept of Seamanship is so wide, so all-encompassing, that nobody knows it all. All I can do is keep learning as much as I can.

Well said !!!

 

[peterb]

I took up sailing in my 40's after years of gliding, had not grown up through dinghys, crewing other boats, chartering,etc.

Me too. And it illustrates the problem of specifying minimum limits of experience. Much of the knowledge used in gliding can be applied directly to sailing, but how would you incorporate that into minimum limits?

In instruction it's often noticeable that people with mathematical, scientific or technical backgrounds pick up sailing much more quickly than people with arts or business backgrounds. It isn't just that they learn more quickly; more importantly, they understand more quickly.

I first learnt to sail in a heavy lug-sailed dinghy when I was 14. It was fun, but in the following year more important things took over (girls?) and I stopped sailing. In October 1976 I was asked to organise an entry in a sailing rally in the Blackwater; the charter company asked about experience, and I said, truthfully, that I had sailed dinghies since I was 14. It satisfied the charter company, and we got the boat (a Westerly Pageant called 'Mardian') back from the weekend without damage. It gave me a taste for it, so I decided to take a shore-based course over the winter. The only course available was Yachtmaster, so I booked a place.

In 77 and 78 I sailed as much as possible, but in total only had about 500 miles in my logbook when I booked a Yachtmaster practical course, and passed. My YM CoC is dated 29-12-78.

Looking back, I had far too little experience. But should I have been held back until I had more experience? I honestly don't think it would have helped. I got through largely by virtue of my non-sailing knowledge; that knowledge helped enormously in understanding the instruction I was given at the old National Sailing Centre.

In some ways it's a chicken and egg situation. Having had good instruction (thanks, Rod!) early on made the later experience more valuable. Getting that experience before the instruction would not have been as useful. Experience and instruction need to advance together, and the speed of advance can vary considerably between different people. If there has to be a minimum limit of experience, then it should be as low as possible. I reckon that the present 5 days before DS is probably about right.

 

[Barnacle Bill]

It's more likely that he's one of those "Yachtmasters" who thinks that the question paper at the end of his evening class course was the Yachtmaster exam, and the thing that says "Shorebased Course Completion Certificate is a Yachtmaster Certificate!

Well yes, I've met those, but worryingly this guy wasn't. He'd done his practical exam in Gibraltar. He was exactly like a bad army officer who assumes his role is 'above' what the men (crew) do!

There are some very sensible posts here. People who realise that it's not about the piece of paper (particularly course completion certs) but about the learning. Beware the 'badge-collector' who brags about the courses he's 'passed'!

Yes, instruction and experience go hand in hand - doing these courses gives you the opportunity to discover and correct your areas of ignorance, but otherwise experience is king and you learn something new on every trip.

My own case is a little extreme, I never did a complete RYA practical or shore-based course in my life (although I have subsequently taught plenty of them) - it was all learned in bits, and I sat a shore-based 'exam' without having attended the course.

I remember explaining this to a new crew member over a beer in Nassau, Bahamas, when we were just about to set off across the Atlantic in my yacht. There was a pause, then he said "Best not tell my mother."

 

[dufour27]

Since starting this post I have sat and passed the day skipper theory course - well worth every penny, I would suggest anyone who has an interest in boating should do this course.

 

[peterb]

Since starting this post I have sat and passed the day skipper theory course - well worth every penny, I would suggest anyone who has an interest in boating should do this course.

Well done! But remember that DS should be taken as an introduction to even more interesting sailing. Go to it!

 

[PeterGibbs]

My plan is to sit the theory, do the 5day "practical course" then go onto the yacht master - however trying to find out if worth the cost/hassle....

I'm only really planning on racing around the cans in the bay and a couple of trips a year from the Isle of Man to Ireland/Scotland...

YM theory covers all you need to know unless setting off long distance in which case, Ocean Master theory is a requirement.

Do you get to YM theory in stages or go straight for it? If you already have some on-water experience and reckon yourself reasonably able to absorb navigation and tidal information, go straight to YM. You can prep by getting the Longbow YM CD (RYA approved) and tutor yourself in the basics before hitting the class, if you'er a little unsure.

With YM theory behind you, you are well prepared for what you propose.

Practical experience / courses are valuable, but you need a good theoretical grounding first, IMO

PWG

 

[macd]

YM theory covers all you need to know...

It covers some of what you need to know.

...unless setting off long distance in which case, Ocean Master theory is a requirement.

"Requirement"? Moitessier et al seemed to manage OK without.