Day Skipper - book recommendations?

[lustyd]

Hmm I just went to have a look and my account is disabled, which is weird. Perhaps they didn't like the feedback I gave and they don't want more business from me

 

[capnsensible]

Apparently not obvious what the support number was or operating hours. I'd expect an online only course to have online support too which it may have but again not clear how to access.

Some people don't want to use the phone, my partner included. It's part of what makes the Internet so popular and inclusive.

Must have changed in the last two years or so. Mrs S, when being duty beauty and her comradettes were available to chat by phone or email from 0800 t0 2000 when she worked for them.

I overheard a lot of what went on as the days I was home, not sailing, I was duty chef in the kitchen next to her office!

 

[lustyd]

I'm not saying it wasn't available, I'm saying that if it is it's not obvious to the end user sitting in the training screen. The interface is terrible in a lot of other ways too and reminds me of mid-1990s computer based training. At one point I had to put chevrons onto a line for CTS exercises and there was no explanation as to how to place them or move them or even what the exercise required. I had to randomly click about, then fail, then try again until it worked. It's indescribably frustrating to know the answer but not be able to confirm that due to poor software.

It wasn't even clear what the process was to take the exam, and much of their text turned out to be wrong

 

[finestgreen]

That's not the only advantage. I strongly recommend against the online courses

For what it's worth, I'd say the opposite - online means you can set your own pace, whizz through stuff that you find easy and spend as long as you need on the harder bits, and reading different sources where you're not comprehensively sure if something. If you take your time and spread it over a couple of months you've got the opportunity to forget and relearn which is the best way to properly embed it long term.

 

[Skylark]

I haven't done DS online but my daughter did do Nav Essentials online. That was a bit of a test to see if she might progress to DS. She came to me, not the online support for help, and so I went to check what they had been teaching. The approaches felt very 2002 rather than 2022 (when she was doing it). So I would largely support your position BUT I think there are downsides to the classroom approach:

- Time commitment with no flexibility
- Location, I'm guessing there will be a once-a-year option close to me but otherwise a 100 mile round trip each day
- Not every instructor will be great, some might even teach the wrong answer!
- There will be other people on the course who may be very annoying; every tutor in every subject has encountered the person who tries to outwit the tutor or who dominates all the discussion with their particular curiosity.
- The pace (e.g. ability to rewatch a section) is set by the instructor not the student.

There are absolutely no downsides to the classroom approach, all you need is a friendly, helpful, experienced, charming, knowledgeable, flexible, adaptable, cake eating and coffee drinking instructor.

I have a bit of experience in such matters. The most difficult for me was the old, local Tech College, 26 week evening class. They were hard work. I've enjoyed a 2:1 course done over the kitchen table in an apartment in Mallorca, a 1:1 done over a dining table in a French ski chalet and plenty of small groups done in the classroom. Dealing with distractions is part of the instructor training. The pace is usually set by the students progress. You pays your money.............

 

[capnsensible]

I

I'm not saying it wasn't available, I'm saying that if it is it's not obvious to the end user sitting in the training screen. The interface is terrible in a lot of other ways too and reminds me of mid-1990s computer based training. At one point I had to put chevrons onto a line for CTS exercises and there was no explanation as to how to place them or move them or even what the exercise required. I had to randomly click about, then fail, then try again until it worked. It's indescribably frustrating to know the answer but not be able to confirm that due to poor software.

It wasn't even clear what the process was to take the exam, and much of their text turned out to be wrong

Im sure that the company will be sorry to hear of your experiences. I know for a fact they take...or certainly took....feedback very seriously. Have you spoken to them about it?

 

[lustyd]

I

Im sure that the company will be sorry to hear of your experiences. I know for a fact they take...or certainly took....feedback very seriously. Have you spoken to them about it?

I left feedback after the course, yes. My account is now disabled though as I said, so presumably they didn't take it well

 

[capnsensible]

There are absolutely no downsides to the classroom approach, all you need is a friendly, helpful, experienced, charming, knowledgeable, flexible, adaptable, cake eating and coffee drinking instructor.

I have a bit of experience in such matters. The most difficult for me was the old, local Tech College, 26 week evening class. They were hard work. I've enjoyed a 2:1 course done over the kitchen table in an apartment in Mallorca, a 1:1 done over a dining table in a French ski chalet and plenty of small groups done in the classroom. Dealing with distractions is part of the instructor training. The pace is usually set by the students progress. You pays your money.............

But I don't eat cake.....

I delivered a 26 week only once, night classes. All the excuses, no shows, dog ate my homework stuff seriously interfered with those who really wished to learn.

Really enjoyed the mixed theory and practical we used to offer. Few days theory, few days sailing, etc. Obviously with a realistic maximum of 3.

Taught a day skipper theory around the swimming pool in Rodney Bay marina in St Lucia. Nice to break off now and then for a swim.

Have taught coastal theory and astro a few times crossing the Atlantic. Bug advantage, nowhere for them to hide!!

 

[capnsensible]

I left feedback after the course, yes. My account is now disabled though as I said, so presumably they didn't take it well

Shouldn't matter. There is a phone number on the home page and email is easy too. Don't need your account active....did it expire?

See also home page on website.

We know the course manager very well and she takes poor reports very, very seriously.

Will agree though that after the RYA changed to the colour format DS accompanying course books, it went....pants. even though its a memory jogger, not a text book.

 

[capnsensible]

You have intrigued Mrs S now and she is well into doing some site research!!

 

[lustyd]

Don't need your account active....did it expire?

I was trying to log back in to see what support options are in the interface. The course expired/completed but no reason to expire the account. I think there's a general lack of awareness of how web platforms work these days that they need to look at. I've read many similar reports and spoken to a few other students with similiar experiences so I don't think this is unusual feedback.

 

[finestgreen]

Hmm I just went to have a look and my account is disabled, which is weird. Perhaps they didn't like the feedback I gave and they don't want more business from me

If you completed the exam, I think they disable access and send you a separate "revision" username and password.

You can definitely get support on the course by email.

I will agree navathome is a bit poor, though. Good enough, just about, but extremely basic for the amount they charge and I'd say well overdue a full overhaul.

 

[ylop]

There are absolutely no downsides to the classroom approach, all you need is a friendly, helpful, experienced, charming, knowledgeable, flexible, adaptable, cake eating and coffee drinking instructor.

If there is a way that you can guarantee that the instructor you get is all of those things (and hopefully shares the cake and coffee) then you are on a winner! Of course it needs to be my version of helpful and charming and flexible ;-) Recommendations can obviously help alot - but usually the recommendations are not as specific as the individual instructor but the school. I might go to the school you generated a recommendation for and end up with CpnSensible...

Dealing with distractions is part of the instructor training.

I'm sure it is. Like everything some will be better at it than others. Just like some students will be better at dealing with distractions of home study than others.

The pace is usually set by the students progress.

Presumably not really - the whole syllabus needs to be covered in the available time, perhaps there is some scope for extending, presumably no option to say actually you've had enough prior knowledge we can do the whole course in half the time? At home if you really struggle with meteorology you can spend much longer on that. If you happen to have a degree in meteorology you can pretty much skip the lessons and answer the questions. If you've never done tidal heights and secondary ports stuff you'll probably need every minute available in the class and can add as long a you want at home. If however you've actually been sailing around the East of England doing this stuff all the time in real life you will be asking when can you move on to the hard stuff!

 

[capnsensible]

If you completed the exam, I think they disable access and send you a separate "revision" username and password.

You can definitely get support on the course by email.

I will agree navathome is a bit poor, though. Good enough, just about, but extremely basic for the amount they charge and I'd say well overdue a full overhaul.

The courses are indeed in the process of being overhauled. Which has happened a lot over the many years they have been operating. Like any business, it doesn't pay to stand still.

 

[lustyd]

and end up with CpnSensible

He seems like a great instructor to me. I may not always agree with him, but I can't fault his approach or reasoning for that approach and that's what instructors need.

 

[capnsensible]

He seems like a great instructor to me. I may not always agree with him, but I can't fault his approach or reasoning for that approach and that's what instructors need.

We would do some fun stuff with boats too! It's always been my belief that sailing is for enjoyment....courses should be energised by getting everyone involved and doing stuff. Even poly.

 

[Skylark]

……the whole syllabus needs to be covered in the available time, perhaps there is some scope for extending, presumably no option to say actually you've had enough prior knowledge we can do the whole course in half the time? At home if you really struggle with meteorology you can spend much longer on that. If you happen to have a degree in meteorology you can pretty much skip the lessons and answer the questions. If you've never done tidal heights and secondary ports stuff you'll probably need every minute available in the class and can add as long a you want at home. If however you've actually been sailing around the East of England doing this stuff all the time in real life you will be asking when can you move on to the hard stuff!

Of course there is, you weren’t paying attention, were you? I did say flexible and adaptable.

A course with 25+ people will be run with a degree of rigidity. A one-to-one course is altogether different.

 

[DreadShips]

Felt obliged to create an account (long time lurker) to say that I've recently completed Dayskipper Theory via Navathome. Fortunately placing chevrons onto a line is no longer part of the course, it seems...

It's all going to depend on the OP's daughter and her experience to date though, I'm afraid - and also which parts she needs to brush up on. When the online training was insufficient and I wanted to get into more depth, or simply get a better explanation, I got by with a copy of Reeds Skippers Handbook and a background of idly browsing charts and happily following concepts down the internet rabbit hole. Being able to tap into other people's experience was incredibly useful. I can imagine that if you've not got a reasonable maths/physics background then figuring out some of the chartwork might be a bit harder - my 16yo was pleased to be shown vectors in the wild however.

Mostly doing the online course forced me to knuckle down a bit with some of the details, such as the order of black and yellow on cardinals. The bits that I sort of knew, that would probably be ok with in the wild, but that I hadn't actually committed to memory. As a non-sailor (yet!) it also had the advantage that I received the RYA training almanac and charts to play with - though you could easily substitute an old almanac and relevant charts and practice your own exercises if you have them.

On the downside, compared to learning in a classroom environment I didn't get the chance to kick around the more esoteric stuff, and I probably didn't do as many practical exercises as I'd have liked. I'd also agree with others that it often felt harder to work out what a question was really asking for than it did to answer it! Support was always available by email though - and came back quickly. I didn't use that feature as much as I could have - I felt mostly like the encouragement was to stick to the course when I would happily have dived into much more detail to get to the bottom of things, but I understand the limitations of the arrangement. It also works that your answers in each module are checked as you go, so mistakes can be rectified there and then - if you're ok to pick apart your own errors to understand what misled you / or you misunderstood and are completely honest with yourself this is fine, but it could easily be a case of simply changing the dropdown and hoping!

Finally being marked wrong by a computer because you were one degree out on a tidal arrow taken from a tiny chart, or 10cm out on a tidal curve is utterly infuriating. I'm jiggered if anyone can steer that accurately, and if I am ever in a boat where 10cm makes a vital difference I can assure you that very bad choices have been made beyond the tidal curve. At least in person you can argue your case.

It almost certainly helped that during comp crew my instructor was happy to feed me all sorts of stuff that fitted firmly into the dayskipper syllabus and beyond, so I'd already seen tidal curves, deviation cards and all that jazz beforehand. I think it's only radar and working a course to steer that I hadn't been exposed to, in honesty. That might explain why I raced through it in just over a fortnight, doing a module or two of the course for the simpler topics and for the chartwork perhaps working just a question or two whilst I had daylight still. If she's in a similar boat, so to speak, it might be worth planning to do it closer to the practical so that the latter hammers some of it home in the real world? That's my hope at least.

In summary it forced me to properly polish it up and to sit down with a plotter and pencil, exactly as I needed it to, and I'm definitely better prepared for my practical having done it. If nothing else I'm a lot more confident - and maybe a little surprised with myself. In short, if your daughter is already fairly experienced or at least pretty informed, and just wants to make sure she's being honest with herself about covering everything off then online might suit. If she's capable of doing that stuff anyway = and can do it with a real almanac or chart - then don't bother and just do the practical!

In terms of books, I have a copy of Noice and Seymour's DS for Power and Sail kicking about that I'd read and misplaced, but the one I'd always come back to as essential for me is the Skippers Handbook. It's got pretty much all the theory you need, and in a format that's intentionally designed for when you're in a pickle and your mind has gone blank. Just leave a copy in the privy and revise chunks instead of scrolling the phone. That is what everybody else is doing in there, right?

 

[lustyd]

Fortunately placing chevrons onto a line is no longer part of the course, it seems

That was a couple of weeks ago so it definitely is still in there
I quite like the skippers handbook too.

You did just remind me that an advantage of a classroom is hearing other peoples “stupid questions” and realising there’s no such thing as a stupid question!

 

[DreadShips]

I evidently forgot the horror - possibly a form of PTSD! It's also possible the task is now described a bit better though.