Customs/ UKPA boardings

[Marsupial]

Well, I see you have had the grace to remove your initial comment - to the effect that my account was "fiction" (with the implication that I am a liar) Your experience is different from mine. Simple as that. I do suspect, however, that your account as quoted above is considerably exaggerated, even if the Fire Brigade wasn't there.

I have n't removed anything (perhaps the thought police have had a go at it) and I dont recal calling you a liar - not my style, far from it, it's just that perhaps our experience is different. The situation I have described is not fiction and is as I described it, I WAS THERE , (the arrival of all the vehicles in the early hours woke me up!) - along with The Lifeboat men, Customs and Excise, UK Border Agency, the MCA and the local police.

I have to say it was not "our" finest hour as far as "welcome to the UK" is concerned and YES there was a queue to board on the pontoon.

 

[lenseman]

The Parliamentary Ombudsman's Office (the one that deals with complaints against government department)

The UKBA is a totally separate thing altogether since it split from HMC&E earlier this year.

 

[l'escargot]

The UKBA is a totally separate thing altogether since it split from HMC&E earlier this year.

And strictly speaking there is no longer HMC&E, they became HMR&C (HM Revenue & Customs) when they merged with the Inland Revenue in 2005.

 

[Woodlouse]

Dear me, you must be a right shifty looking bunch to warrant so much attention from our customs. I've only been on a boat that's been boarded once in UK waters, by a Police launch from Pompey, and I'm afraid to tell you that they were very polite about it.

As for everyone that complains about being stopped during a domestic voyage, have you ever stopped to think how the Customs would know you've not come from abroad until they've come aboard?

As for any response by HM Customs that caused them to come down to see a boat en-masse I can only assume that someone must have thought you looked dodgy and reported it.

 

[Ubergeekian]

And how many spritely private yacht owning yachtmasters do you know who would be willing to throw away a rewarding financially secure retirement to instead become a drugs mule?

What makes you think I'd need a yacht owner? I'd supply the yacht - and there are plenty of skint pensioners out there. Crookedness doesn't stop at (a) 65 or (b) the shore.

 

[rallyveteran]

As for everyone that complains about being stopped during a domestic voyage, have you ever stopped to think how the Customs would know you've not come from abroad until they've come aboard?
QUOTE]

Radar?

Seems to work for Dover Coastguard

 

[PilotWolf]

I was going to post a reply from the boarding teams' views based on my previous occupation but decided against it as this thread seems to have gone the same way as every thread that involves an enforcement agency doing their job.

I will just point out though that drysuits are a H & S requirement, including steel toe capped boots - it's not only nice 'plastic' pleasure craft that are boarded. Likewise most drysuits come in black - a cost issue as well as an operational one for certain situations.

Posting is a general reply not in response to any particular poster.

W.

 

[jonjo]

What makes you think I'd need a yacht owner? I'd supply the yacht

Fine so now the customs team has something which warrants a more serious line of questioning on board. 3 old geezers aboard who don't own the yacht, don't know the way around the systems on board and probably all looking a bit pallid and seasick since they are not seasoned sailors.

 

[BrendanS]

I was going to post a reply from the boarding teams' views based on my previous occupation but decided against it as this thread seems to have gone the same way as every thread that involves an enforcement agency doing their job.

I will just point out though that drysuits are a H & S requirement, including steel toe capped boots - it's not only nice 'plastic' pleasure craft that are boarded. Likewise most drysuits come in black - a cost issue as well as an operational one for certain situations.

Posting is a general reply not in response to any particular poster.

W.

It's always worth posting from a point of view that encompasses knowledge. There are always people interested

 

[kengill]

Men in black

The last time two officers were on my boat they politely knocked, identified themselves and took statements that resulted in a jail sentence for the culprit.

They're welcome on board anytime.

 

[Woodlouse]

As for everyone that complains about being stopped during a domestic voyage, have you ever stopped to think how the Customs would know you've not come from abroad until they've come aboard?
QUOTE]

Radar?

Seems to work for Dover Coastguard

It works for Dover Coastguard because they have a relatively small bit of water to monitor, and the boats they're monitoring are for the most part, the sort that gives a nice positive echo on the screen. What you seem to have just suggested is a 24/7 radar watch around the entire coast. Which I'm sure you'll agree would be tricky enough, but to make things even better, have you ever seen a yacht on radar at 20 miles in a swell?

 

[Seven Spades]

Dear me, you must be a right shifty looking bunch to warrant so much attention from our customs. I've only been on a boat that's been boarded once in UK waters, by a Police launch from Pompey, and I'm afraid to tell you that they were very polite about it.

As for everyone that complains about being stopped during a domestic voyage, have you ever stopped to think how the Customs would know you've not come from abroad until they've come aboard?

As for any response by HM Customs that caused them to come down to see a boat en-masse I can only assume that someone must have thought you looked dodgy and reported it.

Well it is relatively easily. Direction of travel combined with Radar. All they have to do is patrol 5 miles offshore and keep an eye on their radar it is relatively easy to see boats returning from Cherbourg / C.I.'s / Brittany etc. Very few people cross the shipping lanes south of the IOW who have not been abroad.

I don't have a problem with border controls for those that have been abroad, but I do object to inspections of boats on domestic passages.

 

[timbartlett]

I have not been delayed, irritated or treated like a suspect, have not been condescended to and would not be so childish as to be influenced in an important matter by personal pique in the way you describe.

Anyone who has had first-hand experience of being bullied or lied to by civil servants in private is less likely to fooled by the facade of integrity that they display in public. And as more and more of us have this experience thrust upon us more and more often by "overzealous" officials with quotas to fill, the proportion of jurymen who will treat official "evidence" with a considerable degree of skepticism must be increasing rapidly.

...most drysuits come in black - a cost issue as well as an operational one for certain situations.

Yes, having them specially made in black probably is "a cost issue" compared with the red or orange ones that are available off the peg from any of countless civilian commercial sources.

Random Boardngs are simply an easy way of being able to claim to be "doing something", with the added bonus of not generating any more work downstream within the judicial system and being another HMG empire / employment scheme.

You're forgetting the "Elf'N'Safety" issue! From the point of view of the perpetrators, the really big advantage of a random boarding is that the chance of coming across a real criminal -- possibly with some kind of weapon and an incentive to use it -- is almost zero.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Just read an article criticising the Customs/ UKBA cutters.

Quote: However, in response to a number of letters from RYA members who have been victims of ‘stop and search’ raids at sea, the RYA has approached the Minister of State for Borders and Immigration to seek clarification of the statutory powers of the UKBA cutter crews and boarding parties.

“We are receiving an increasing number of such reports from members of the boating public who are worried about the intimidating demeanour of the UKBA cutter crews and boarding parties”, commented Gus Lewis, RYA Legal and Government Affairs Manager.

I personally have never felt in the slightest bit intimidated - been boarded twice, on one occasion I had a gallon container of white powder sitting in the cockpit (Oxalic Acid).
It makes me wonder who these people who complain actually are.
Are they the same people who complain about the amount of drugs (complete with the associated burglary/ muggings/ prostitution/ ripping apart of families etc etc) in our
society?
Are they the same people who complain about the illegal immigrants (along with associated crime - pick pockets etc).
Are they the same people who complain about the amount of illegal firearms that are being used in inner cities?

Maybe, the authorities should sit back and do nothing. No, they can't because these same people will complain "because the authorities are doing nothing".
On both occassions when Rosally was boarded, the boarding parties have been very civil and the boarding lasted no more than 10 minutes. I presume that if I had been a snooty ar*ed git, the experience may well have been less pleasant but that is human nature for you.
Maybe some people take the boardings personally or believe they are above being boarded?

When were you last boarded? I think the issue here is the change of attitude from the Customs and Excise to the new Border Agency. I have been boarded by the old C&E and have nothing but praise for them. The issue here is the Border Agency.

I currently have a Freedom of information request in on the powers of the new agency. - 2 weeks old now.

 

[Robin]

When were you last boarded? I think the issue here is the change of attitude from the Customs and Excise to the new Border Agency. I have been boarded by the old C&E and have nothing but praise for them. The issue here is the Border Agency.

I currently have a Freedom of information request in on the powers of the new agency. - 2 weeks old now.

We were boarded last year 10mls south of Poole by the men in black from the Borders Agency cutter (Searcher or Seeker). They were polite and professional, no complaints from us. They checked our registration papers and asked a bunch of questions seemingly by way of friendly conversation but in reality checking what they could read themselves from the registration document, like 'nice boat, how long have you owned her?' and whilst filling in a form on a clipboard 'what is your home address and postcode?'

We had previously been boarded various times by HMRC and the questions were more contraband oriented but otherwise little difference.

As I've said, I have no problem with that. Had I got smart and attitudinal and said why ask me questions you already have the answer too then maybe they might have developed an attitude problem of their own.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Chris,

You might like to supplement your FOI request with information about how many illegals and how much contraband has been discovered during random searches of pleasure vessels, rather than intelligence-led searches.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Chris,

You might like to supplement your FOI request with information about how many illegals and how much contraband has been discovered during random searches of pleasure vessels, rather than intelligence-led searches.

Yes - that would be interesting. I will wait to see if I get a response to this one first.

 

[rjp]

As for everyone that complains about being stopped during a domestic voyage, have you ever stopped to think how the Customs would know you've not come from abroad until they've come aboard?

I've just had a great idea! Why not ask vessels that have just arrived from abroad to show some kind of flag. Yellow would be a nice colour.

Then they could leave the rest of us alone.

 

[DaveS]

Going foreign

Twenty-odd years ago SWMBO and I spent a summer cruise circumnavigating Fife (well, sort of, in a round Britain via the Caley Canal kind of way). This was in a bilge keel Vivacity 20 which was handy for the various drying harbours. One day involved a fairly rough rounding of Fife Ness, then several hours jilling about waiting for enough tide to get into St. Andrews. On finally getting in, by which time we were quite tired, I chucked our mooring lines to a uniformed figure on the quayside who turned out to be not the harbourmaster, but in fact the Customs man based in Dundee but with responsibility for the wee Fife harbours too.

He wanted to know where we'd come from. "Anstruther" I replied. "Oh, not from abroad, then?" I looked at him in incredulity. "In this boat? You must be joking!" [The nearest non-UK soil was several hundered miles away, and a Vivacity is very small...] He seemed quite disappointed. I don't suppose the Dundee customs get to deal with many illegal immigrants, drug smugglers etc.

 

[PilotWolf]

Yes, having them specially made in black probably is "a cost issue" compared with the red or orange ones that are available off the peg from any of countless civilian commercial sources.

Certainly wasn't the case when I was sourcing them for the crew. Off the peg suits don't fit comfortably when you are wearing them 8 or 10 hours a day. Black is the cheapest cost option. Also I found none off the shelf with steel toe capped boots. Bright orange is a bit useless if covert ops require you not to be seen approaching... a point you chose to selectively ignore!

In response to Brendan I'll post a couple of remarks but won't be drawn into any conflict over them..

... whether you like it or not a warranted officer has the powers to board your vessel.
... boarding in anything other than flat calm is inherently dangerous for the boarding party, I know several who have ended up between RIBS and boardee. Arguing over it at the time just makes it more risky.
... a standard pattern of questioning is (should be) followed for the pure and simply reason that every boarding may end up in a court case and the defence laywer will try every trick in the book to have the case thrown out on a technicality. We tended to use prompt cards during interviews/statement taking so nothing was missed - even very experienced officers miss or forget things.
... with regards to weapons, its a sad world we live in these days and even the most innocent looking people can be the ONLY one that has to get lucky with a knife or winch handle (let alone a firearm). I am afraid that if you point a gun at me I will shoot (would have shot) first and will take my chance in court to defend that decision.
... most people working at sea love boats or are boaters first and 'officers' second. As such no one I ever worked with would be less than respectful of someone elses' boat and not cause damage.
... I would also insist on signing the ship's log with details of the boarding. Firstly it can be called as evidence in the future (harder with pleasure craft) and secondly it also means I get to see where you've been and when
... remember the officers are working. There is no excuse for rudeness from them but it also is not a social visit. They should identify themselves and show a warrant card on boarding and will tell you what legislation gives them the right to board and why they chose you - if you ask. Will you always be cheerful and happy if you have to visit me in the course of your work? Likewise there is no excuse for you to be rude to the officers either. You have the right to be treated with respect but so do the boarding team.
... if 1000 boardings stop 1 terrorist attack or stop a quantity of drugs finding its way on to the street - maybe to tempt your family - it has to be worth a little inconvinence surely?
... a lot of boardings are targeted but a lot of 'successes' come from the random boardings.
... the issue of knowing where a craft has come from is difficult when pleasure craft are involved. The radar issue has been discussed already, but trust me a small craft can be tracked on radar with evidencial accuracy by a vessel at sea without the target seeing or being aware of the enforcement vessel. Goverment vessels are (in certain circumstances) except from AIS requirements.
... try looking at the boarding as a training exercise - next time it might be an inshore lifeboat crew that is trying to get aboard.

W.