Customs/ UKPA boardings

[Twister_Ken]

"if 1000 boardings stop 1 terrorist attack or stop a quantity of drugs finding its way on to the street - maybe to tempt your family - it has to be worth a little inconvinence surely?"

Do one in a thousand random boarding achieve that? How many terrorists have been found in random boardings? How many times have commercial quantities of illegal drugs been found in random boardings?

You have much more chance of getting me on your side if you offer evidence of success, rather than asking me rhetorical questions.

(I'm stressing random, not intelligence-led)

 

[PilotWolf]

"if 1000 boardings stop 1 terrorist attack or stop a quantity of drugs finding its way on to the street - maybe to tempt your family - it has to be worth a little inconvinence surely?"

Do one in a thousand random boarding achieve that? How many terrorists have been found in random boardings? How many times have commercial quantities of illegal drugs been found in random boardings?

You have much more chance of getting me on your side if you offer evidence of success, rather than asking me rhetorical questions.

(I'm stressing random, not intelligence-led)

As I said I won't be drawn into arguments over my remarks. I am sure that HMCR will give you the response you want if you ask them. However from experience I would say we found something 'of note' (rather than something which required a verbal warning or caution or prosecution) in around 20% of random boardings. Evidence and intellegence gathering is part of the job...

It is also not a case of being on my side. I no longer work in the enforcement role - getting too old to bounce around in the cold and dark for one thing!

W.

PS I also recall one very apologetic and humbled boat owner who came and thanked us for boarding his boat that had been stolen that morning, complete with all the paperwork on board and no way of knowing the skipper wasn't the owner... except we had boarded him about 3 weeks previous and he had made a point of forcifully telling us that he wasn't a criminal due to his sailing 'timetable'. We spotted his boat well outside his time table and saved his pride and joy from disappearing south simply because he had stuck in our minds - albeit for the wrong reasons.

 

[bilbobaggins]

Evidence and intelligence gathering is part of the job...

Could that be construed as a 'fishing expedition'? Could that be illegal? Are not warranted police constables embargoed from such practices?

 

[PilotWolf]

Could that be construed as a 'fishing expedition'? Could that be illegal? Are not warranted police constables embargoed from such practices?

Not at all that's why all(?) police forces have evidence gathering teams - just look at the next football match or potential public disorder event for the cameras.

Evidence gathering is required for a sucessful prosecution.

Maybe the REAL problem is it affects YOU (me too) as a boater rather than the local yobs?

This is the very reason I didn't post a response in the first place!

W.

 

[bilbobaggins]

just look at the next football match or potential public disorder event for the cameras.

I can relate to the need to gather evidence of criminal activity. Does that justify police FIT teams and their, er, 'misguided' actions in preventing journalists and members of the public photographing 'goings-on' for exactly the same evidential purposes as the officers?

Should we ordinary law-abiding boaters seek to photograph your colleagues doing a 'board and search', would we be dissuaded physically? Would we be bullied into handing over cameras, film and SD cards? If so, would someone ( you? ) care to explain the powers that permit such?

Oh, and if someone - anyone - points a gun at me when I am offering no armed resistance or violence, I have to assume my life is at risk at that point. That raises some serious legal questions.

I await publication of the breadth and true limits of UKBF powers with interest.

 

[David_Jersey]

All straight out of the Zanu jobsworth justifiction handbook...........

... with regards to weapons, its a sad world we live in these days and even the most innocent looking people can be the ONLY one that has to get lucky with a knife or winch handle (let alone a firearm). I am afraid that if you point a gun at me I will shoot (would have shot) first and will take my chance in court to defend that decision.....

I guess that is fair warning.

Lets hope no one aboard a yacht is ever holding a winch handle or is wearing a bulky jacket (or not )............or that Zanu Labours thugs don't try and board against an armed lunatic one dark night.

... if 1000 boardings stop 1 terrorist attack or stop a quantity of drugs finding its way on to the street - maybe to tempt your family - it has to be worth a little inconvinence surely?

LOL I am sure if that statistic for terrorist attacks had any relation to reality we would never hear the end of it from Zanu Labour A more credible argument saying that a 1,000,000 headless chicken searches will stop global warming.

The drugs thing? Yeah, wouldn't want drugs to become more easily available than KFC

 

[Seven Spades]

Not at all that's why all(?) police forces have evidence gathering teams - just look at the next football match or potential public disorder event for the cameras.

Evidence gathering is required for a sucessful prosecution.

Maybe the REAL problem is it affects YOU (me too) as a boater rather than the local yobs?

This is the very reason I didn't post a response in the first place!

W.

I presume that as you have been doing this for some time you have been working for HM Customs an Excise as was. The powers you have mean you can enter a boat without a search warrant and gather intelligence without a warrant of any kind and that these powers extend to private domestic dwellings.

Wouldn't you have been better off gathering evidence or "fishing" in private dwellings in areas renown for high drug use and supply?

We both know that the answer is that it would cause riots and accusations of racial discrimination. People would just not stand for random searches of their houses, so why is it acceptable for the same thing to happen to yachts?

In a way it is a perverse form of racial discrimination against white middle class boat owners. You conduct random intelligence gathering searches against people whom you have no reasonable suspicion nor evidence of any wrong doing. Yet you do not perform the same function in areas likely to yield high results because of the racial consequences.

What a terrible state of affairs we are now in. Thirty years ago Al Pacnio mad a satirical film about an American lawyer who found himself in a society where the innocent were sent to prison and the guilty went free. If you have never seen this film I urge you to do so. It's called "And justice for all".

You could not make this film today because it is no longer funny, it is too much like real life.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

... with regards to weapons, its a sad world we live in these days and even the most innocent looking people can be the ONLY one that has to get lucky with a knife or winch handle (let alone a firearm). I am afraid that if you point a gun at me I will shoot (would have shot) first and will take my chance in court to defend that decision.

My sentiments exactly, as it is I suspect those of most of the general public you are supposed to be protecting and of many of the criminal fraternity - so don't surprised if you get shot by someone who thinks the same. Just for starters anyone who's spent any time in the Forces has an in-built aversion to having a gun pointed at them and there's an awful lot of us around. An attitude like that will get a reaction from anyone though and possibly result in a tragedy.

How about first identifying yourself clearly then approaching in a manner in which you can clearly been seen? There MIGHT be a slightly increased risk to you but the idea is to allow the British to enjoy their way of life - not to have them living in fear of their "protectors".

Surely you want to avoid confrontation anyway - that way if someone is nervous you know they've got something to hide. If you're pointing a gun at me I'm going to be on edge whether I've got a ton of cocaine and 100lb of Semtex or "just" the wife and kids - Joe Average will die protecting them, but not the Semtex or Cocaine - a "gentleman" in Northern Ireland told me all that by the way and, knowing what he got up to, I'm quite happy to believe him.

If you don't like the risk of dealing with the general public, effectively in their homes with their families, without being armed then I don't think you (or they if you've moved on) are in the right job. It is NOT acceptable to have stealth raids on the general public. You're not the bloody SAS trying to free a hostage or take out a drug baron for Christ's sake. Please explain why it's OK for Policemen and Women to walk around the streets of cities with just truncheons yet the Border Agency have to go armed before it will board a leisure craft that it has no reason to suspect?

As an aside how much training will these people have had? Does anyone who thought of this brilliant policy have any idea how much a small boat moves around at sea in any kind of swell? It's difficult enough to keep a mug of tea more or less vertical with one hand and hang on with the other a lot of the time. Any budding John Wayne's would be lucky to hit a damned spinnaker never mind get a body shot off at the right target. They'll need the steel toe-caps to make sure they don't shoot their toes off.

And while I'm having a rant at the sheer idiocy of all this, the biggest advantage of gun is that you can kill people from a long way away so you don't get hurt yourself (unless they've got one too). The one golden rule is don't let them get close or you lose your advantage. So why the hell are you bouncing around in a cockpit with them?

I've no problem with black drysuits - but how about a nice bright orange flak vest and a high-vis lifejacket over the top of it so we can see you. Health and Safety suggests they'd be far better off with a good pair of deckies if they're trying to board a small, wet, rolling yacht than steel toe-caps but wouldn't it be nice to show a little respect for someone's possessions and ensure that they're non-marking at least?

Obviously there will be occasions where intelligence suggests that the risk will be far higher and other tactics are appropriate but these should be the exception not the rule. The Borders Agency are not the right people to do this sort of thing anyway - there should be a specialist division which constantly trains exactly for this sort of activity - it's closer to an SBS/Commando role than a policing role and it cannot be done properly unless you train constantly treating it as a very specialised activity.

I've never had any problem with C & E or the general police but I find the ever increasing para-military behaviour of organisations, mostly combined with excessive rights that aren't always even clear, an Orwellian nightmare.

 

[Twister_Ken]

If you dress people like goons, and train them like goons, don't be surprised if they act like goons. And don't be surprised if those with nothing to hide, (which is 99.9%recurring of leisure sailors) react against their goonery with dislike, disdain, and the withdrawal of cooperation.

Getting us on your side would be far more productive of good intelligence than alienating us. FFS, you'd have thought HMG would have learned the benefit of 'hearts and minds' in other spheres of operation recently.

 

[tokenjam]

I couldn't give a t*ss, have you ever experienced a drunk nigerian policeman with an AK47, looking for a christmas bonus?

I don't think anyone's experience of violent authority actions in other parts of the world should excuse that behaviour in UK waters though.

 

[Clarky]

Pilot Wolf is out of touch.Pointing a firearm at somebody has been held to be an assault,enforcement teams cannot do that on random searches without justification .

 

[PilotWolf]

1. Did I at any time mention me pointing a gun at anyone? Read properly what I said. That's just proved my point about the need to note everything down in case it goes further... "I think he said *** your honour..." If you can't read it properly when writtten down in front of you what chance is there of recalling a conversation - hence why interviews are recorded and transcribed word for word.

2. Yes, eveidence gatherinf is necessary. Why go for the mule as opposed to the supplier(s) for example? It takes time.

3. The leisure yachting industry is a small part of the target group.

4. I will not comment on anything that is even remotely operation procedures so i am afraid you'll all have to continue making assumptions about things that happen or appear not to happen.

5. I also notice everyone ignored all the positive things that can come form a boarding...

As I said in first post it was clear where this was going to end up... and I have replied more than I intended. Brendan asked for the other view - I gave it and don't really care what people think - I don't like the way a lot of people do their jobs but don't moan aabout it on here!

I'm out of that side of the marine world now and have a much more relaxed and better paid job 'driving' boats

W.

 

[electrosys]

One point which appears to have been overlooked within this thread is that boats serve different functions: for some they are a means of transport; whereas for others they are an extension of their homes - indeed for some people their boat IS their home.
How would you like a bunch of 'law enforcers' entering your home, with or without your consent, merely because they 'happened to be passing', or just because they fancied doing a random check ?

To enter your home on land, an officer normally needs a search warrant (there are a few exceptions), and a warrant is highly unlikely to be granted for a random search, "without reasonable suspicion etc ..".

To be stopped and searched on the street, likewise the police (and CSOs) only have the power to stop and search if they have reason to believe you have been, or are, engaged in some form of crime or anti-social behaviour. Even then, they do not have the power to demand proof of ID, for it has not been a requirement to prove one's ID since the end of WWII: the law being changed in 1952 subsequent to someone being arrested for not producing their ID card.

As the RYA site comments: "the UKBA cutter crews and boarding parties appear to be demanding that UK yachtsmen in UK waters provide proof of identity and other information relating to the yacht and their voyage which, as a matter of law, yachtsman are not obliged to carry."

And this is a key point - the UKBA crews must operate within the law.
I think the RYA is very wise to demand clarification of the UKBA's powers in regard to those who are neither entering or leaving UK waters.

 

[dt4134]

As I said in first post it was clear where this was going to end up... and I have replied more than I intended. Brendan asked for the other view - I gave it and don't really care what people think - I don't like the way a lot of people do their jobs but don't moan aabout it on here!
QUOTE]

Your problem, or at least the problem of you former colleagues if I understand right, is that with your tactics you are well on the way to alienating one of the more law-abiding and patriotic sections of the population. The sort of people that would be natural allies if managed well.

You haven't much ground to complain if people start muttering and comparing you to the STASI or the black and tans.

It is very hard to see that the claimed results justify the tactics, therefore it is reasonable to suspect that the 'real' purpose is part of intimidating the population to make them more manageable, as described in Blair's 'manual for government'.

(Of course, I mean Eric Blair).

 

[andygc]

5. I also notice everyone ignored all the positive things that can come form a boarding...

Not at all. It's just that this thread has been written to a large degree by forumites with axes to grind. You made the mistake of thinking that they are representative of people who sail rather than a minority who spend many hours sitting at their computers late into the night. I dip in and out of threads and notice that there are some where one group of forumites offers helpful advice to others, and others where a different group complains at considerable length, particularly about government agencies. There is some but not much overlap.

I am sure plenty of people noticed your points and agreed with or accepted them. You made the mistake of expecting a rational response, and then posting again when people chose not to read what you wrote. No doubt this post will also get a negative response, but I'll just ignore it.

 

[electrosys]

I've just been looking at the Borders, Citizenship and Immigration Act 2009, and in particular at the published Impact Assessments on the UKBA website. Although these Impact Assessments have been drawn up by (one assumes) experienced professionals, there is not one single reference to any impact of the Act upon leisure boating, despite this being a common and widespread activity taking place at the borders.

Plenty of financial costings, including the cost of training and supplying uniforms - but nothing, zero, zilch - about the impact of the new legislation upon leisure boating.

Pretty sloppy.

 

[David_Jersey]

I don't think anyone's experience of violent authority actions in other parts of the world should excuse that behaviour in UK waters though.

As someone who once did very nearly end up on the wrong end of an extra judicial execution (albeit truth be told - they had a point .......but fortunately in a part of the world where the police like a serious drink , even if it took a week of "incarceration" to get on drinking terms)............hard to not treat encounters with armed thugs when off piste with some suspicion / concern...........even accepting they are genuinely official - which IMO in this day and age is in itself a big ask. Just as the authorities have moved away from viewing the world through Dixon of Dock Green eyes so have some of the punters.

Trust is like virginity, mighty hard to get back

Anyway, next summer I hope to be in English waters I will try and avoid the 1 in 1000 yachts enroute to a Terrorist attack and will decide later whether to bring an AK47 (different gun laws down here ) for defence enroute

 

[bilbobaggins]

"The most dangerous creature on the planet is a half-trained bully with a badge - and a gun."

 

[timbartlett]

No doubt this post will also get a negative response, but I'll just ignore it.

Why not? After all, that's exactly how the standard civil service usually react to any form of criticism.

 

[Twister_Ken]

Heading resolutely for a century, this one.