Crossing Separation Zones in Small Yacht

[bedouin]

RichardS,

I apologise if I've broken some rule, but the advice in that little rhyme has probably saved my and more importantly my crews' lives a few times !

Total Nonsense of course - following Colregs will never endanger lives - it is only when people deviate from the rules that people get hurt.

 

[Seajet]

Jaybee & bedouin,

If you think ships of hundreds of thousands - or even a couple of hundred - of tons are going to alter course for you, you are the couple talking nonsense.

Take Container ships for example, blind for a long distance in front; as for radar, well I have it but it doesn't give the 'Whacky Races' picture beloved by Hollywood !

I regard it as courteous as well as seamanlike to make it obvious I'm avoiding ships - by just a tweak of the tiller compared to the inertia of a ship - and if necessary going behind them; it seems to have worked for me in 34 years of crossing the English Channel.

Making one's intentions clear is part of, not contrary to, the collision regulations.

 

[Lucky Duck]

Jaybee & bedouin,

If you think ships of hundreds of thousands - or even a couple of hundred - of tons are going to alter course for you, you are the couple talking nonsense.

I remember overhearing two ships talking on the VHF where one of them mentioned that it was making a small course alteration to avoid a sailing boat. As we were the only boat with visual range I suspect it was us.

 

[Seajet]

I'm not saying all ships disregard yachts; what I AM saying is 'don't take it for granted & push your luck ! '

 

[Skysail]

Ships have frequently obviously altered course for us in a 40 ft yacht. And I have been very grateful for the obvious alteration they made. But I certainly do not take it for granted.

 

[LadyInBed]

If you think ships of hundreds of thousands - or even a couple of hundred - of tons are going to alter course for you, you are the couple talking nonsense.

How wrong can you be?
Since I have had AIS I have noticed quite a few ships that were going to cross a bit close do a ten degree course change then change back again once they have past.

 

[xiaotuanzi]

It still boils down to courtesy & common sense, mixed with a dash of survival instinct !

 

[Seajet]

How wrong can you be?
Since I have had AIS I have noticed quite a few ships that were going to cross a bit close do a ten degree course change then change back again once they have past.

Lady In Bed,

You are not getting my point; it's much easier - and cheaper - for a yacht to make a course alteration than a ship.

Most ships are well run, and make the 10 degree alteration you've seen; but the one who feels unwilling or unable ( say in a TSS ) will go straight over your or my boat without noticing...just common sense to keep clear, and courtesy not to bother the professionals.

I don't generally try cycling across the paths of lorries either - sheesh, it ain't rocket science.

 

[jimbaerselman]

Lady In Bed,

You are not getting my point; it's much easier - and cheaper - for a yacht to make a course alteration than a ship.

Most ships are well run, and make the 10 degree alteration you've seen; but the one who feels unwilling or unable ( say in a TSS ) will go straight over your or my boat without noticing...just common sense to keep clear, and courtesy not to bother the professionals.

I don't generally try cycling across the paths of lorries either - sheesh, it ain't rocket science.

You're not stating your assumptions. If you were the stand on vessel, this advice only makes sense if your course alteration is substantial and made when the vessel is more than 5 to 8 nm distant (depending on it's size and manouevrability). Any closer, and it may be the first waltz step.

The next decision distance occurs if you rudely discover there's still a collision risk and you're the stand on vessel (ie, you started a waltz, or you didn't detect the vessel early enough). This is also a size and manouevrability decision. But the distance will be close, between 2nm and 0.5nm, and you're likely to be forced to make a 180 to starboard.

 

[Pye_End]

Most ships are well run, and make the 10 degree alteration you've seen; but the one who feels unwilling or unable ( say in a TSS ) will go straight over your or my boat without noticing..

Can you cite examples of yachts deliberately being mowed down by ships?

 

[LadyInBed]

You are not getting my point;

I think it is MY point that YOU didn't get!

You stated that big ships didn't alter course

If you think ships of hundreds of thousands - or even a couple of hundred - of tons are going to alter course for you, you are the couple talking nonsense.

I pointed out that from my observations they do.
I was NOT debating the rights or wrongs of a yacht altering course.

 

[Seajet]

Boats are not often run down deliberately I'd hope; but rather too many boats & even other ships have been run down as the other ship simply didn't know they were there, maybe by being tired, drunk, incompetent, relying too much on radar - and we know how effective yacht radar reflectors are - or people completely absent from the bridge !

i have seen plenty of ships which seemed rather steadfast in their course, it doesn't make much sense to go in front and see what happens...

I used to visit Portpatrick often; near there is a headland - I forget the name - with a b****dy great lighthouse on top; at the bottom lie the remains of a ship; same old story, set the waypoint into the autopilot then had a rather too 'relaxing' tot, so piled up right on the waypoint; I wouldn't fancy the chances of any yacht in the way in the considerable distance before she piled onto the rocks.

I'm sure this happens much less frequently nowadays - but the same scenario happened last year - , and I am not meaning to be disparaging to professional ship crews, just trying to say 'playing chicken' in front of such a vessel is an unnecessary risk, if there's the slightest doubt go behind.

The Ouzo certainly wasn't run down intentionally, just apparently wasn't obvious enough to radar or eyesight - as I mentioned, I've seen a ship go past with no-one on the bridge; though I'm not suggesting for a moment that was the case with the Ouzo.

I do think a case ( seamanship, not financial ) could be made for a couple more people on ships watchkeeping; if I've learned anything in sailing, it's that Fatigue Is The Killer.

The huge majority of ships are well run, but since a course change to avoid possibly interfacing with their bows is so simple, I can't see a problem, it's just common sense and is NOT flouting the collision avoidance rules if one is sensible; if you have a brain and a rudder, use them !

I also stated clearly, 'make any course alteration early and obvious' - that way everyone's happy.

 

[Sailfree]

You are not getting my point; it's much easier - and cheaper - for a yacht to make a course alteration than a ship.

Its not easier in fact its more dangerous. The COL regs are written with one overidding theme. The boat the has the best ability to manoeuvre is the give way vessel hence motor gives way to sail etc and we all give way to tows/fishing etc.

If you ever end up in front of the bows of a fast ship that may be trying to turn to avoid you the 4kts that a small yacht might manage will not get it very far.

Its far better if everyone sticks to the col regs and if you are stand on only make a course deviation when there is a risk of collision. I do notice that ships have Bridge chairs at the helm and I can imagine it difficult to spot that the bridge is manned if the person is in the chair. Only on a couple of ocassions have I had to change course when I was stand on so I believe the overwhelming majority do obey the col regs.

 

[ianfr]

Crossing in a small boat

Hi

During our last return trip from France, 2 targets showed up on the AIS which indicated that the CPA would be too close for comfort. In both cases we called up the relevant vessel to a: Have you seen us? b: Are you about to make a course change? c: State our intentions.

This of course assumes that you have an AIS receiver fitted, which I would totally recommend for peace of mind.

On one of the calls the vessel stated that he was about to make a 10 degree turn to Starboard anyway, which removed the need for us to make any correction.

Regards

Ian

 

[Simondjuk]

I think people need to put a bit more perspective on this issue.


Some seem terrified of coming within a couple of miles of the bows of a ship as if just being there almost guarantees a collision, when in actual fact even a big ship can make a change of course plenty big enough to avoid running you down within that distance.

The worst thing you can be doing at that time is something unpredictable and in contravention of the Colregs which may negate the ship's avoidance actions.

 

[john_morris_uk]

Lady In Bed,

You are not getting my point; it's much easier - and cheaper - for a yacht to make a course alteration than a ship.

Most ships are well run, and make the 10 degree alteration you've seen; but the one who feels unwilling or unable ( say in a TSS ) will go straight over your or my boat without noticing...just common sense to keep clear, and courtesy not to bother the professionals.

I don't generally try cycling across the paths of lorries either - sheesh, it ain't rocket science.

Seajet, it isn't rocket science to obey the IRPCS. And the rules are pretty clear: if you are the stand on vessel then stand on until you think there's a risk of collision, and then take avoiding action. Its up to all vessels to avoid collision.

My problem is that you somehow seem to think that your pirouetting (sp) round the seas makes it easy for the professional watchkeepers to keep out of your way.

There is NO REASON why yachtsmen shouldn't act in a professional manner - and obey IRPCS, and incidentally gain the mutual respect of all sea-users. Why do you think that so many 'professional' seaman and watchkeepers hold yachtsmen and women in such contempt? Its because of the behaviour of a few (with respect perhaps like yourself) who ignore IRPCS and 'always keep out of the way' in the false belief that they are being 'helpful'.

If you are worried, fit AIS and then you might see just how many ships avoid you. Its actually the normal behaviour of a ship at sea. There are very few exceptions and they do not disprove the rule. IRPCS actually allow for them - just wait until you are SURE that they are not taking avoiding action and turn the correct way again according to IRPCS.

And before you make up any more ideas about how Captains have to justify course alterations to the owners etc etc, then remember that its far more career limiting for them if they end up in a close quarters situation with a small vessel, let alone run someone down. Its in their interest to obey the rules - and every one I have met is very proud of his/her seamanship and knowledge of the IRPCS and ability to apply it.

 

[GrahamM376]

I think people need to put a bit more perspective on this issue.

Some seem terrified of coming within a couple of miles of the bows of a ship as if just being there almost guarantees a collision, when in actual fact even a big ship can make a change of course plenty big enough to avoid running you down within that distance.

The worst thing you can be doing at that time is something unpredictable and in contravention of the Colregs which may negate the ship's avoidance actions.

Problem is some people are being pedantic about what should be done, often it seems without considering the distance to the other vessel or what conditions are like. From a watch keepers perspective, in good conditions an approching yacht may be holding a constant course but, in rough and gusty conditions, the course may be constantly altering by 20-30 degrees so intentions are not clear.

I agree with Seajet that when approaching a TSS or shipping lane, it often only needs a few degrees change in course from some distance off for me to pass astern rather than across the bows of a large vessel, which is what I've often done.

On other occasions, when in closer proximity, it may be advisable to hold your course to avoid confusion BUT those who think large vessels will always alter course are living in cloud cuckoo land. My experience has been that most do not give way.

 

[BrianH]

There is NO REASON why yachtsmen shouldn't act in a professional manner - and obey IRPCS, and incidentally gain the mutual respect of all sea-users. Why do you think that so many 'professional' seaman and watchkeepers hold yachtsmen and women in such contempt? Its because of the behaviour of a few (with respect perhaps like yourself) who ignore IRPCS and 'always keep out of the way' in the false belief that they are being 'helpful'.

I would genuinely like to read the panel's opinion of this scenario that occurred during my crossing of the Gulf of Trieste. As can be observed, I had a CPA of 143m and under sail was the stand-on vessel. As it was I slowed right down by roller-furling the genoa to allow the RoRo ferry to pass ahead - at no time had she shown any change of course or speed herself.

According to most here I should have stood on until a collision was looming then have done something. Instead, because of my action the "professional seamen held me in contempt"

 

[JayBee]

I would genuinely like to read the panel's opinion of this scenario that occurred during my crossing of the Gulf of Trieste. As can be observed, I had a CPA of 143m and under sail was the stand-on vessel. As it was I slowed right down by roller-furling the genoa to allow the RoRo ferry to pass ahead - at no time had she shown any change of course or speed herself.

According to most here I should have stood on until a collision was looming then have done something. Instead, because of my action the "professional seamen held me in contempt"

At 18.7 knots this ship would have needed a very small alteration to starboard to pass clear ahead of you and may well have been about to do so when you reduced speed and made this action unnecessary. I agree that if this was the case, he left it a little late and I would have tried calling him earlier, before taking any action myself. If there was no response I would then have taken the action required by the IRPCS and made a large alteration to port, AWAY from the approaching danger.

It could just be that in this particular sailing area "might is right" is a popular concept, well known to the OOW on the ferry who may well have been confused many times by the actions of yachts. Anticipating that you may slow down or alter to starboard would deter him from altering to port to pass under your stern. It takes two to do the pavement waltz.

If all parties involved are in plain view and stick to the rules, situations like this may be less common. Anarchy is NOT the answer.

 

[Elemental]

I would genuinely like to read the panel's opinion of this scenario that occurred during my crossing of the Gulf of Trieste. As can be observed, I had a CPA of 143m and under sail was the stand-on vessel. As it was I slowed right down by roller-furling the genoa to allow the RoRo ferry to pass ahead - at no time had she shown any change of course or speed herself.

According to most here I should have stood on until a collision was looming then have done something. Instead, because of my action the "professional seamen held me in contempt"

OK, so he's leaving it a bit late, but he's still got time to take action.

You have his MMSI and a visual contact, why not call on VHF and ask his intentions?

If you feel a collision is imminent (well, in 5 minutes time...) and feel you must respond then do the job properly and take clear avoiding action - turn at least 90 deg. to starboard. Just slowing down is ambiguous (esp. a sailing yacht - he may think you're in a lull).

It's not about being b****y minded about it - just obvious and proper in your behaviour. Just because you know what you have in mind doesn't mean he does unless you make it clear or call on the VHF.