Compulsory training for raggies?

[Twister_Ken]

Bah humbug

Stirring the pot here, I reckon less training and more experience is whats needed. Oh, and boats with good seakeeping abilities.

One problem (of several) with the Yachtmaster industry is that people come out of the sausage machine with a sustificate and believe they can do it all. But what counts is not the piece of paper but the amount of sailing they've done and the conditions in which they've done it. And you can't buy that with the charts and the morning milk.

And then - thank you Ben, Jen, Bav et al - when Bracknell does get it badly wrong, they find themselves stuck out there in a boat that requires so much active helmsmanship that they get so cream-crackered and so worried about the motion of the boat and the fact that it sounds like it'll break up at any moment - although it probably won't - that they dial 999 (and who can blame them?).

Two nights ago, Don Street told a tale of sitting out a 70kt storm, hove to somewhere off the Old Head of Kinsale. They were below, eating an oven-cooked three course meal (off a gimballed table) and washing it down with a choice of red or white wine. Can't do that in an AWB.

 

[lauradee]

the thingd people say to do a wind upfor raggies?

.

 

[webcraft]

Re: Bah humbug

Go Ken . . . .

<font color=blue>Nick</font color=blue>
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.bluemoment.com>

</A>

 

[Observer]

Re: Bah humbug

Sounds apocryphal to me - but cool!

 

[pvb]

Don\'t believe all you read...

Remember that the RNLI is a massive fund-raising machine, and needs to portray us raggies as reckless amateurs in order to convince people to donate even more money. In fact, the truth is somewhat different. If you delve into the RNLI's own 2001 statistics, you'll be pleasantly surprised to find that:-

* Only about a quarter of the people they "rescued" were on sailboats. (Note that "rescued" doesn't mean "lives saved" - only 11% of the people "rescued" are deemed by the RNLI to be "lives saved").

* Over 70% of people "rescued" were on power-driven boats.

* The vast majority of launches to sailboats involved inshore lifeboats only.

* More than a third of all lifeboat launches took place in just 2 summer months - July and August.

* Out of nearly 7000 lifeboat launches in 2001, only 154 were in winds of force 7+.

* The average lifeboat spends only 33 minutes at sea each week.

 

[Stingo]

Re: Stick that in your pipe..

Oi Stinkies, stick that in your pipes and smoke it...

We really don't mind about you attempted wind-ups.



<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.stingo.co.uk>http://www.stingo.co.uk</A> - now showing at a computer near you

 

[Sailfree]

Without getting drawn into the raggies v stinkies argument Observer does raise a serious point. As someone seriously trying to increase his experience what do you do (preferably without compulsion) to obtain practical knowledge for heavy weather sailing so that an emergency is avoided? Taking off in a Force 8 does not seem sensible yet Xm mls in the Solent in less than Force 3 is never going to develop the necessary experience. I believe there are heavy weather courses run in Feb/Mar on 60foot steel ocean going boats but how does this experience relate to what to do on a production boat if say you get caught out in bad weather or encounter a storm say doing the ARC?
At present I intend to do more cross channel long weekends this year and while I will not set out in a F7 or F8 I will build up mls in F5 & F6 and inevitably one forecast F6 forecast will be stronger. I avidly read the heavy weather sailing books but don't kid myself that there is any substitute for experience!

 

[brianp]

Come on folks, its about time someone thought of another windup.
Afterall its turned six and pitch black

 

[Observer]

Lies, damned lies and statistics

(Spoilsport!)

 

[colvic]

Re: Lies, damned lies and statistics

No...he just checked his facts before opening his mouth.

Being a raggie who has been rescued by a lifeboat in a force 7 off Beachy Head I wasn't there through lack of experience or knowledge just a lousy weather forecast that we paid £1.50 from Metfax and is now framed on the wall.

Newhaven Lifeboat crew reckoned that they were regarded as the AA/RAC by the majority of people they protected from them selves, recalling such rematks as : just bring out a mechanic; no I want to be towed to Brighton I've got a lunch date!

Me, I think we should all pay for the service, i.e. just like the AA/RAC.

Phil
Offshore Member

 

[ean_p]

Re: Bah humbug

where were you listening to Don Street please Ken???

 

[wishbone]

For what It’s worth I think anyone venturing out in the wild blue yonder should have training/experience. Perhaps I am a goodie two shoes but I value my life and I like to think that self preservation is best. .Before even setting foot on a boat I did the winter classroom bit, read sailing in a week by Wendy Fitzpactric, hired a Wayfarer sailed single handed.(washed the inside a couple of times) then booked courses with a very good school in Hull to sail the Humber and North Sea, then onto flotilla holidays made some mistakes and learnt from them, but at no time caused damage or put anyone at risk. There will always be the plonkers, selfish brain donors & T**ts that cause unpleasantness for others But then that’s Life! What there short of is a SLAP!!!

Wishbone

 

[Jools_of_Top_Cat]

It does not make you a goody two shoes per se, but I still do not see a need for compulsory training, the implications of law and tax and licensing and and

If it isn’t broke don't try to fix it. Congratulations on your conscientiousness, but why do you think everyone needs to behave like you, it is their life!

I know it is easy for me to have this argument, I have been around boats since I was born, I don't know how I would react if I was thrown in at the deep end without a clue, I probably would consider train of some sort, but it would be my choice not some dictate


Julian

http://www.ukstaffords.com

 

[FlyingSpud]

Chicken and egg – you describe training (which is excellent) but none of what you describe amounts to experience of being out, in charge of a boat, in bad weather. There is always going to be a first time for everyone

 

[wishbone]

I agree about the element of bad weather, this comes with experience, but putting to sea without basic navigation skills with only reliance on GPS and no metrological understanding I think is foolhardy, (jumping in a car and driving on the motorway without any knowledge of the highway code, signs etc) and the question of knowing the working of the boat and engine and soundness! All these elements put other peoples live at risk when calling for help.

Wishbone

 

[Guest]

Re: Compulsory training for motorway users?

Please note: there is NO compulsory training requirement for driving on the motorways in the UK (L plates aren't allowed on remember?) and contrariwise there is NO restriction on using the motorways once you've passed your test, even though you may never have been on one before. Daft, but true.

I would view driving as a far more hazardous activity than sailing yet here is a situation whereby novice drivers can venture out onto some of the busiest roads in Europe without any prior training, let alone experience.

How do we reconcile that with the argument for sailors, given the relative safety records of both modes of transport?

 

[pvb]

Bad analogy...

Motorways are without doubt the very safest roads to drive on!

 

[Guest]

Re: Maybe missed my point...

Motorways are only "safe" relative to other roads, but not "safe" in an absolute sense (nothing is) and I doubt driving down the motorway is "safer" than going out sailing, on average. An accident on a motorway is also far more likely to involve many more innocent parties - unless multiple common-waypoint pile-ups become the norm for yotties in the future .

My point is, does the risk/accident rate/safety record of sailing justify compulsory training any more than it does for motorway driving (for example) or is it just a softer target? I should say I'm neutral on the subject, as I have never personally considered venturing out in boats on my own without some level of training and prior experience anyway.

 

[wishbone]

My point is you don’t just get a car and go on the roads, the highway code teaches you signage do’ & don’ts (well not normal people) your splitting hairs about motorways, you can with a boat! OK why not all the people who don’t think they need or want any training, display a flag “I’m alright Jack”! and when things go tit’s up as the rescue boat arrives sees the flag and returns to base! The main point to my answers, is that there will always be the inconsiderate people that spoil it for others, I am very happy with what I learnt through the RYA, I had excellent tutors, the implications are so vast and involves many countries there is no easy answer, I don’t agree to a nanny state quite the opposite! there will always be people who do and will flout any law and constantly get away with it, to the detriment of others!

Wishbone

 

[Twister_Ken]

Sailfree, one way (the best?) to build experience is to sign on as a racing crew with an experienced skipper in a well-found boat. This doesn't mean Admiral's Cup stuff, but any competent, keen skipper who is racing an offshore series. You will then sail a lot, in whatever weather the weekend conjours up, and will see how to manage various contigencies, and play a part in managing them. So when, in your own boat, something like that occurs, you're not left scratching your head and wondering what to do next.

Beating to windward in 60kt gusts is not something I would ever have chosen to do, but I have done it and if it happens again, I know it's possible and how to achieve it.