Complete novice looking for advise

[Elefantman]

Evening all,
okay.. not sure this is the right place or forum to kick off but I'm sure a moderator can redirect me if I've posted in the wrong place.
Firstly I'll get a hello out of the way.. I'm Jay, live in deepest darkest suffolk and for some reason after 10 years of not sailing a thing I'm thinking about buying a yacht.. nothing fancy maybe 20ft, 3>4 berth and suitable for weekends etc.
Now this is where I get laughed at.. As above I sailed a fair few times in my teens..(I'm not in my early 30's) mainly small things like lasers but on occasion I would get to play with a seawych that belonged to a freind.. So thats my total experience!
Onto now.. I'm keen.. I have a budget (sale of most of my bikes as I dont ride them too much anymore).. I've done my research into the running costs (and I can cover them). But before I jump in headfirst I'm thinking it might be best to either to a: find someone local with experience so when I get something I have someone to take me/it out and remind me how to sail.. or b: book myself into a local school for a weekend to try and brush up before buying anything.
Anyway... As always I figured the net might be a good place to start putting feelers out for info and if nothing else give someone else a chuckle at my nieve thoughts.
cheers,
J

 

[Elefantman]

Been looking at a couple fo yachts.. and wanted an opinion on keel types?

lift keel or bilge keel?

I'm planning on the yacht being based in a estuary.. but would also like to be able to take it around the coast..(if that makes a difference)?

 

[Tranona]

Sorry you have not had any replies as yet. Best way of getting into this sort of sailing is to join a club based on the coast or estuary and get some experience crewing for others. Doing a practical sailing course with an RYA approved school will also introduce you to both sailing and like minded people.

Or you could just go and buy a low cost boat and give it a go!. There are always lots of older shallow draft boats from the 70's and 80's on the market for not a lot of money - and the problem is usually finding somewhere to keep it and as a base for your explorations. However, the east coast is as good as any place to start with lots of sheltered estuaries and a good bit of sea outside when you get more experience.

 

[Chrissie]

Are you able to join a sailing club? Theres such a big difference between learning to sail on a big boat with a large crew, as you would with a sailing school and what you will be doing yourself, which will probably be single or short handed on a little boat.
If you join a sailing club and ask, the members will be happy to take you out sailing with them, then you will get a better idea of what you need to brush up on and what sort of boat you want.

 

[CliveG]

Welcome to the mad house.

If you are thinking East Coast, a lift keel will give you better access into shallow areas,
better performance under sail and would be easier to get onto and off a trailer if that is your plan for storage.
Nothing wrong with a bilge keel, you will sit up right when you run out of water as we all manage on the East Coast at some time.

I can recommend the East Coast Forum section of this wonderful set of fora for friendly help ad advice and some grand get togethers.

Blagging some days on other peoples boats before you splash the cash would be worthwhile.

 

[RichardS]

Hi J

It looks from this as if you didn't get any responses to your original post so apologies for that.

Unfortunately, I can really help with your query other than to say that lifting keels do take up room on a smallish boat and it is presumably more to go wrong. I assume that the draft of a bilge keel is greater than a lift keel but wonder whether it is significantly so?

Richard

 

[Ubergeekian]

Been looking at a couple fo yachts.. and wanted an opinion on keel types?

lift keel or bilge keel?

I'm planning on the yacht being based in a estuary.. but would also like to be able to take it around the coast..(if that makes a difference)?

If you want to be comfortable on board while aground, you need either a fully retracting lift keel or bilge keels. Semi retracting things like my wee Hunter 490 or the Anderson 22 are fine for the shallow draft side of things and dry out OK, but leave you at a rather awkward angle.

As for learning - if you already have a reasonable idea of what string does what, just buy a boat and go for it. It's not very difficult, a modicum of sense will keep you out of trouble and it's very satisfying to do it that way. I would recommend, though, that you do an RYA theory course (Day Skipper or Coastal Skipper if you already know a wee bit) asap so that tides, buoys, shallow bits and other boats don't come as a complete and unwelcome surprise!

 

[CliveG]

The East Coast Forum. http://www.ybw.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=60
One of the best non Sailing Club groups you will find.
There are only 2 rules.

1) There is no Committee, Officers or rules

2) See rule 1

 

[dmmbruce]

Hello, welcome, and I'm sorry no one had the time to reply before.

It sounds as though you have got all the right background and ideas. Whether you sail with a friend or use a sailing school will depend on their availability and your preferences. Basically get some water time and see what you need to learn, or remember!

If you are going to be doing coastal sailing, it is well worth doing an RYA Day Skipper course as it covers the basics that you need very well. It also gives you confidence. If you do the practical it gives you more sea time and more experince, plus more people to talk it over with.

As regards bilge or drop keel. Bilge keels tend not to sail as well, but are very convenient as they can take the bottom in any reasonable place and round estuaries that can be useful! Drop keel sail better, usually have more draught with it down, almost none with it up, the bottom of the hull can be a bit tender if drying out on stoney places, (not good,) and the keel can get stuck in its casing. It depends what you want. I enjoyed bilge keels in the past.

Hope that helps

Cheers

Mike

 

[Elefantman]

Many thanks for the rapid flurry of responses..

I'm keen to get involved in the social side of sailing too so I'm already looking for a suitable club (probably based on the Deben as thats likely going to be my base for anything I own)... also I figure I spend enough time on courses with my job so I don't fancy anything to structured right now. I will however consider some RYA theory training as I feel my knowledge of tides, bouys etc is probably a bit too out of date and lacking!

Reason I ask about keels is that I've seen two yachts within my budget.. 1's a twin bilge keel type and the other is a lift keel. I've heard good and bad about both and just wanted some other thoughts before I go and look at them both again.

I'm on a lads fishing trip to Skye next week so wont be doing anything in the short-term.. but both bikes have sold along with a load of old spares so I now have the money ready.. just a matter of finding something suitable and finding a local club!

Cheers!
J

 

[Tranona]

Would not get too worked up about keel types on first boat. As you say there are pros and cons of each. The most important thing is to buy a boat in the best working condition for your money. That way you will get going quickly without more work and money and find out what you like and don't like. Chances are you will only keep it a couple of seasons and a well kept boat is always easier to sell on.

 

[Searush]

Keep an eye open for people sailing boats like the ones you fancy & have a chat with them. They will be glad to chat & will tell the good the bad if you ask. They may also offer to take you out for a sail, but don't expect that!

Most of us are proud of our boats & will defend our choice strongly, but most of us will also admit to its weaknesses.

 

[Lady Campanula]

Welcome, 'Elefantman', to the madhouse. Yes, you're in the right place.

We could probably help you more if you identified the make/model of the boats you're looking at with interest, and you were able to have a look at other examples of the same. Also, peeps on here could guide you better on what to look out for, in terms of known problems.

Then, of course, you'd want to sail each of them - and a couple of similar 'suspects'; there are plenty around - to identify which you feel instinctively that you like.

There are lots of helpful, friendly sailing folk on and around the Deben; some of them even look in here every once in a while. I'm sure one or other will offer to guide you, or even take you sailing.

 

[ProDave]

Speaking as a novice we have a lifting keel 18ft boat (launch day tomorrow )

With the keel up, she will float in a foot of water, and presents a pretty flat bottom so will sit upright on the ground (as she does twice a day in the harbour) Not all lifting keel boats retract the keel all the way, some leave a stub keel as already stated.

The downside of a lifting keel is a large keel box intruding into the cabin. In our boat, that unavoidable permenant obstruction has been made into the support for a drop leaf table.

If you buy a lifting keeler, DO have a good look at the lifting mechanism. When we bought our boat we were told the keel was last overhauled in 2009. But out of curiosity I opened the keel box to have a look over the winter and I'm glad I did. It was well and truly in need of a service, rollers that the wire lifting rope pass over were siezed solid for instance.

We just set out to buy a small cheap boat that would sit upright when it dried out, so we would have considered a bilge keeler as well. The decision was made to buy this one because this was the first boat we saw, close to home, in budget, and in reasonable condition (i.e not a project boat)

I'm soo much of a novice to comment on how the sailing ability compares to a bilge keeler. Ask me again at the end of the season when I will have more experience, and will hopefully have crewed on other boats to gain a comparison.

 

[Neddie_Seagoon]

East coast lore is that a bilge keel is a very useful configuration - never sailed there myself. But I learned RYA Competent Crew in a Hurley 22 bilge keel in an estuary and found it a very accommodating, predictable, easy and relaxing boat to sail, would probably fit your parameters and I wouldn't hesitate to recommend one.

 

[V1701]

Let's cut to the chase, how much would you like to spend and we can start suggesting some boats for you. A good place to start looking might be Yachtsnet Archive, they cover a fair few smaller boats on there. And definitely get a boat and get started asap...

 

[Lakesailor]

Here's some sensible tips from a sensible fellow:

Identify boats that are suitable.

Ask about them, on here (some have known problems)

Find boats of that type in the area you want to be based.
(Cheap boats are cheaper if you don't have to move them about.)

Make sure you have a mooring available

If you have joined a club, get some clever bod to look at the boat (easy to get excited and buy a boat that needs a new motor and sails )

Don't think about a surveyor at these prices.

Don't get too fixated about the boat type. It's a fact that most new boaters change within a year or two when they find out what they really wanted.

Read the RYA course books and get a few trips on local boats, local knowledge is worth way more than theory.

Aim to be at least as good as the bloke on the next mooring.

 

[fastjedi]

A few practical considerations .....

1. Some lifting keel boats are fundamentally unstable with the keel up / not suitable for a drying mooring in an exposed location. This would be true of my first boat with a lid (Gem Micro 18)

2. I'm not sure if trailablity is on your agenda? (I guess it depends on store ashore facilities in the winter) Be aware of the difference between a 'trailer sailer' and a 'trailable yacht'. If you are keeping your boat on a mooring during the sailing season and what to coastal cruise the latter is probably more suitable.

3. With the best will in the world you probably won't get it right first time, so buy your first boat with an eye on selling it in a few years time.

4. The two most important characteristics of a boat .... a) It doesn't leak b) It has a reliable motor!

From your description I would look at something like Hurley 22, Halcyon 23 a Seamaster 23. A replacement inboard engine could be circa £5,000 and therefore define the value of the boat to a very large extent.

 

[NUTMEG]

Deben?

I got my first boat, a Seawych as it happens, fir £1700 off of Andy Seedhouse. Worth having a look around his yard as you are nearby, he often has several cheap boats of the size and type that sound like they would suit you. He also provided cheap swinging moorings too. Just don't take your wallet with you, ask here first! Good luck. My boat (W21) is on the Blackwater, not a million miles from you if you fancy a sail. PM me if so.

 

[Searush]

Westerly Jouster is a good trailable centreboarder at around 20'. Accom is naturally limited, but they sure sail well. Elizabethan 23 is another good solid & capable centreboard design.

In general, a centreboarder will sail more like a dinghy than a twin keeler does. It will turn quicker, hold its way less & point better than a twin keel, it will also be easier to get on/off a trailer. I like twin keels as they heel less, sit well when dried out & have no centreboard case in the cabin to leak or jamb.