Complete electronics refit... or perhaps not

[FlyingGoose]

Tablet works fine in sunlight . also there are custom shades that can go over. (Never as good as the plotter I agree , but I do not need a sun tan of it)
Tablet does not over heat if it is a decent model buy cheap get cheap
Power is from a dedicated water proof 12v socket on pedestal
Dedicated water proof case
3 years and still going strong. 150 pounds all in or you can spend 1000 pounds each person has their budget and limitations but do not say the tablet is the wrose option this is nonsense and driven by those that buy a new TV or computer or I phone when the next model comes out, driven by consumerism and fear ...
i also buy second hand were every possible , but them i also have environmental credentials that I like to maintain as much as possible and I AM TIGHT ARSE and would rather have nice sails

Each to their own but i will dispel myths that keep popping up or those that make claims and never tried it ,

 

[PaulRainbow]

Tablet works fine in sunlight . also there are custom shades that can go over.
Tablet does not over heat if it is a decent model buy cheap get cheap
Power is from a dedicated water proof 12v socket on pedestal
Dedicated water proof case
3 years and still going strong. 150 pounds all in or you can spend 1000 pounds each person has their budget and limitations but do not say the tablet is the wrose option this is nonsense and driven by those that buy a new TV or computer or I phone when the next model comes out, driven by consumerism and fear ...
i also buy second hand were every possible , but them i also have environmental credentials that I like to maintain as much as possible and I AM TIGHT ARSE and would rather have nice sails

Each to their own but i will dispel myths that keep popping up or those that make claims and never tried it ,

So will i. I tried several different tablets, including one that cost £700. Rubbish in direct Sun, not waterproof, needed to be on charge all of the time, slow to zoom or pan etc etc

Ok if on a budget, to use below or as a backup, but a dedicated chart plotter at the helm knocks it for six.

 

[FlyingGoose]

So will i. I tried several different tablets, including one that cost £700. Rubbish in direct Sun, not waterproof, needed to be on charge all of the time, slow to zoom or pan etc etc

Ok if on a budget, to use below or as a backup, but a dedicated chart plotter at the helm knocks it for six.

As life my friend we all have different perspectives of color and taste and smell and eyesight , what works for you does not work for others , so thanks but no thanks like have said works for me over 3 years and has worked for thousands of others cruising the world, so thanks for the input but still happy with my selection .
If I can boldly suggest the older you get the back of the eye deterotes and lets less light in this creates shadow, and make reading harder and seeing in low light especially night driving , hence glasses this does not mean you can not see in most cases it just helps more light reach the back of the eye, and everything becomes more bright again , maybe you need glasses as I do.
Yup full of knowledge me , my eye specialist told me thi when I was having issues with my eyes . 20/20 vision just could not see n low light, which actually was not the problem went for lol , blind spots and shadows on the back of the retina glasses help

 

[Birdseye]

Last phase will be to interface the log, depth and wind to the Raymarine backbone using some fo the gizmos that Raymarine have for that.

There lies a whole bucket of worms in my experience.

 

[Jamie Dundee]

Tablet works fine in sunlight . also there are custom shades that can go over. (Never as good as the plotter I agree , but I do not need a sun tan of it)
Tablet does not over heat if it is a decent model buy cheap get cheap
Power is from a dedicated water proof 12v socket on pedestal
Dedicated water proof case
3 years and still going strong. 150 pounds all in or you can spend 1000 pounds each person has their budget and limitations but do not say the tablet is the wrose option this is nonsense and driven by those that buy a new TV or computer or I phone when the next model comes out, driven by consumerism and fear ...
i also buy second hand were every possible , but them i also have environmental credentials that I like to maintain as much as possible and I AM TIGHT ARSE and would rather have nice sails

Each to their own but i will dispel myths that keep popping up or those that make claims and never tried it ,

Does your tablet run autopilot, give accurate sidescan sonar view, interface with radar, overlay AIS and radar on the chart and allow split screen chart, sonar and radar in a torrential downpour, all for £150?

 

[Birdseye]

Some very interesting points raised here, thanks everyone.

One point made my Pete and others seems particularly logical - why continue with a chart based plotter? The reality of our current setup is that we'll bang in a few waypoints at the beginning of a trip, have a little look at the plotter when entering the log, but when pilotage or traffic get interesting, out come the mobile phones, Navionics and associated AIS apps. On a recent 6 week cruise along the Atlantic cost of France, I would have been more uncomfortable with not having a charged up phone/tablet than I would a functioning plotter down below. The action is at the helm, not the chart table so it seems logical for the main kit to be there.

In terms of branding, I'm not sure there is a huge amount in it these days but I was slightly swayed by B&G because their gear seems a bit more sailing orientated whereas Raymarine seems a little more universal in nature. I've also used their linkup app which essentially give you full plotter control from a mobile device and it works very well. AIS is brilliant but I would like the comfort of radar as we've found ourselves in fog on numerous occasions unsure as to whether what we see on AIS accounts for everything out there...

So it sounds as though the best way to retain some hard earned cash maybe as follows:

Go with the instrument upgrades.

Go with the radar install.

Put a 9 inch plotter at the helm (no room on the coachroof behind the spray hood). Have this integrated with autopilot, instruments, VHF for DSC calling, and the exiting Vesper transponder.

Sell the C120 and enjoy a clear chart table, maybe with a tablet in situ running the linkup app/Navionics etc.

Retain autopilot drive equipment.

It'll still be costly but at least we'll be up to date for the foreseeable. She's a great boat and I've put a huge amount of effort into her since ownership so it would be a shame to skimp too much in areas such as these. .

The B&G linkup app you refer to will allow you to see the plotter but it wont allow you to alter the pilot. The reason is that B7G had visions of the owners 10 year old child down below with a phone playing games with the steering.

Other than that, there is a lot to be said for having a complete new integrated system based on NMEA 2000 all above decks leaving the chart table for paper charts or as a desk. Reality is that you tend to put in waypoints and on a passage let the boat steer itself in between keeping watch as you go. So a really good below decks hydraulic pilot is important and I can recommend the B&G one. I have a 3G radar but to be honest dont use it much - the AIS is better if only to tell me if a big boat I can see is at anchor and who it is with call sign.

 

[prv]

Haven't tried this on current gen Raymarine kit, but feel free if you have some - just open up your N2k bus at any T-Piece and see what the various devices do now.

I was curious about this, it does seem like a useful test. I popped down to the boat just now to measure up for a windscreen brace I need to make, so while there I turned on the instruments and plotter to try this.

First I pulled out one of the terminators. No discernible effect. Not very surprising - of course the book says they should both be there, but I often encounter CAN buses at work with incorrect topology or termination and they often still work. Maybe there are more bus errors with one end unterminated, but I wouldn't expect the UI to hassle the user about every malformed packet until it gets to the point that important values aren't being updated often enough. In retrospect I probably should have gone looking for a diagnostics page with an error counter, but I didn't.

So then I replaced the terminator and pulled out one of the backbone cables, splitting the bus into two halves. The plotter immediately raised alarms about missing data from instruments on the other side of the gap. Otherwise it continued working normally. I then looked at the autopilot control head - the only other N2k device with a UI that I have, and on the other side of the pulled-out cable - and it was correctly reporting the heading from the AHRS on its side of the bus-break, flicking back and forth one degree as the boat yawed slightly in its berth. Again, by rights it didn't have to do this because the bus was unterminated, but it worked nevertheless. I tried putting it into Auto mode, and it warned me that speed data was unavailable, but engaged anyway, presumably using the default speed I entered back when I installed the thing.

I reconnected the backbone cable and everything went back to working as normal.

I'm not really sure what more you might reasonably expect of it, to be honest.

Pete

 

[prv]

There lies a whole bucket of worms in my experience.

Not in mine. The SeaTalk1 to SeaTalkng converter kit plugged straight in to both buses, and the instrument data just worked.

The main limitation is that the Axiom plotter did not offer full control of the old-generation autopilot on the ST1 bus. But this isn't a problem for BoB since he has a current Evolution pilot.

A niggling issue is that pressing a button on the pilot controller (connected to the STng / N2k bus) does not cancel an alarm on the ST1 bus. Since my ST1 instruments are all on the hatch garage out of reach of the helm, I used to use the old ST1 pilot controller to shut up the depth alarm as I came into a known shallow berth, and I lost that facility when I replaced it with the new controller. I made a special device to address this - it's something Raymarine ideally ought to fix for everyone else, but it's hardly a deal-breaker.

Pete

 

[mrangry]

The B&G link app will allow you to control all functions except the autopilot I think. I use the tablet for plotting a route at the chart table

 

[Buck Turgidson]

I'm certainly not the only one who has observed these issues. Some more reading here, and lots more if you follow the "Wall of Shame" tag: NMEA 2000 Device Score Card

Looks like Raymarine had problems but they don't use straight n2K do they? Navico good and they own B&G. Some random list on a blog isn't exactly a reliable source either!

 

[prv]

Looks like Raymarine had problems but they don't use straight n2K do they?

The only difference is the plugs - the majority of their devices use a proprietary type designed to be easier to retrofit without having to drill big holes to pass DeviceNet connectors through. However, they seem to be moving away from this, newer designs use the standard plugs and come with an adaptor cable you can use or not depending on whether the rest of your bus is Raymarine. The cable core colours are according to the standard, so you can also easily use field-installable connectors if you prefer.

Pete

 

[TernVI]

.... Reality is that you tend to put in waypoints and on a passage let the boat steer itself in between keeping watch as you go. ....

Best not to make big pronouncements about how other people sail.
Some people even sail upwind!

What instruments people will want/need/value will vary a lot according to how and where they sail, and with whom.

I get the 'instruments at the helm' concept for the owner-driver, but personally I like to split the steering from the nav. I like to let guests steer, and I like to keep track of where we are. When we are racing, I like several people to be able to see certain instruments.
Nav at the helm is less important once you've got an autopilot to relieve you of the need to be at the helm. but it's great for tricky pilotage solo.

£25k sounds like a big pile of cash to me. Of course there can be a lot of labour in making a nice job of installation when the boat's design makes it awkward.

 

[bitbaltic]

I’ve got a suite of Simrad electronics, the same hardware as B&G but mobo rather than sailing software. Simrad NSS7 evo3, NSS7 evo2, RS40B VHF/AIS transponder, 3G radar and a Lowrance HDS10 gen2, Totalscan and Airmar B17 transducers. All networked via NMEA2k and ethernet. I don’t recognise any of the frailties posted here, all excellent kit and ultra reliable. I won’t have an antenna splitter on board though and have separate 2.4m Simrad antennae for VHF and AIS. I suggest that anyone incapable of downloading a firmware update file and applying it should seriously consider staying in bed in the mornings (I download updates direct via WiFi using my mobile as a WiFi hotspot).

I’ve also got Simrad stuff, although it dates from just before Navico divided the B&G/Simrad brands as sail/mobo specific. Original NSS7, St20 wind and multi, airmar transducer. It all talks via an AT10 bridge to an 0813 system comprising the VHF, Simrad tillerpilot, fixed PC with Navionics (note these are not getting mentioned as down below plotting solutions, but the OP won’t get a 17-inch chart plotter display from any tablet), AIS receiver, and a couple of ancient but still perfectly good Garmin 128s as location backup.

all of this is totally reliable, which is why I have sworn off fiddling with any part of it for the next 20 years.

 

[mbroom]

For 25k you could do a lot more. A depth sounder is essential, a compass, and a plotter/tablet. Sprurge the rest on restaurants and hookers... much more fun. Your 25k will depreciate like a stone anyway and you will not really sail any better.

 

[Ulysses II]

I've just updated from fading and failing Autohelm ST50 instruments to a B&G wireless wind, DST800 and Triton 2 displays instrument system. These are connected to a B&G VHF radio with AIS and a Vulcan 9 plotter. I did the installation myself as the NMEA 2000 cables and connectors are easy to deal with. So far, so good. The wireless Bluetooth connection requires following a recipe which is available online (I copied this into an earlier thread on the topic).

The only issue I've had is the reliability of the Link connection between the Vulcan plotter and a tablet. My plotter is in the cabin and I found the tablet would lose the link or shut down at inconvenient moments. I've therefore bought a stand-alone tablet from Visit My Harbour which I use in the cockpit. Obviously, this wouldn't be a problem if the plotter was in the cockpit.

A quote of £25k sounds excessive, given that you aren't paying for masses of technical expertise when installing what is something of a plug and play set up.

 

[TernVI]

For 25k you could do a lot more. A depth sounder is essential, a compass, and a plotter/tablet. Sprurge the rest on restaurants and hookers... much more fun. Your 25k will depreciate like a stone anyway and you will not really sail any better.

The stuff I've bought which felt like good value:
2x HH GPS, ~£100 each
NASA GPS repeater £150?
NASA 'AIS Radar' £200???
NASA Depth and Log, about £150 each?
TackTick microcompass, about £250?

B'n'G, if you want that stuff, buy a used boat with it fitted?
Raymarine, seems expensive and somehow vaguely disappointing. Sailed on a lot of boats with this gear, never been that impressed.

 

[Shuggy]

There lies a whole bucket of worms in my experience.

And absolutely no worms in the bucket in my experience. There is a bunch of naysayers on here - I found integrating SeaTalk 2, NMEA 0183, NMEA 2k and SeaTalk NG fine. You just need to talk to people, read the manual and wire competently. Why do some posters on here want to pick holes in everything? Or everyone? Weird.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Personally, i'd fit Garmin equipment. Nothing inherently wrong with B&G, Simrad or Raymarine, but i like Garmin. I find the menus more intuitive and their support is excellent.

For the OP's boat i would fit a Garmin GPSMap at the helm.
With Garmin radar overlaid.
Overlay the current AIS.
Let the plotter control the autopilot (keeping the existing linear drive).

Forward of the cockpit (possibly over the companionway) i would fit a wind display and a GMI20 (mutli data display), along with the autohelm controller. Anyone in the cockpit can see these and if it's tipping down with rain the sprayhood offers some shelter, whilst the instrument tell you all you need to know and the autohelm can be tweaked from here too.

A standard N2K wind sensor at the masthead (bugger the £400 Garmin/Raymarine/Simrad ones) and an Airmar DST810 will give you all the sensor data needed. The plotter will display everything, including calcs for true wind and a whole load of trip data. The plotter can also use various fancy sonar transducers too, if needed/wanted.

Below decks, a Samsung Galaxy TAB A, 10" Android tablet (built in GPS). This would have the Garmin Active Captain app' installed and would be able to mirror the plotter. Garmin allow the charts registered for the plotter to be used on two Android devices for free, so the Active Captain app' can also be used stand alone. If sheltering under the sprayhood the tablet could also be moved to a sheltered spot under the sprayhood. I would also fit another GMI20 below decks, to display data without having to rely on the plotter being on, handy for wind/depth etc at anchor.

The Icom VHF will connect to the plotter for GPS, without any converter boxes, another saving. I would also consider replacing the VHF for a Garmin VHF, this would allow DSC call to be sent from the plotter to an AIS target. If the OP goes with B&G, it's worth noting that fitting a B&G VHF also gives this feature.

 

[PaulRainbow]

And absolutely no worms in the bucket in my experience. There is a bunch of naysayers on here - I found integrating SeaTalk 2, NMEA 0183, NMEA 2k and SeaTalk NG fine. You just need to talk to people, read the manual and wire competently. Why do some posters on here want to pick holes in everything? Or everyone? Weird.

I recently fitted a Raymarine wheelpilot (STng) to a Garmin plotter (N2K) along with some ST60 instruments (ST1) and a Simrad VHF (0183). All are interconnected and work together perfectly.

My own boat is all Garmin, N2K, apart from the Simrad wheelpilot, which is connected to the plotters 0183 out port. The plotter outputs data from the N2K network on the 0183 port, allowing the ancient wheelpilot to steer to wind, waypoints, or follow a route, as well as steer to compass.

I would, however, try and fit equipment from one manufacturer if possible. This often gives more features (autohelm control fro the plotter, DCS calls etc and also makes keeping software/firmware up to date much simpler.

 

[Shuggy]

Hi Paul

I completely agree. You were super helpful to me when I was working out what autopilot to get and you suggested a Navico family one.

My boat has an NMEA 2k backbone with replacement bits fitted as I could afford them. So I am still working with Seatalk 2 in places as the depth, log and wind instruments were all fine. But my B&G plotter can read them because of the Raymarine converter in my backbone.

I also have NMEA 0183 in there too.

For the OP’s sake, mixing and matching is easy and some of the posts above will help you at achieve an integrated solution for much, much less than the 25k quote.

Good luck!