Comfortable cruising at 10 knots on a budget?

[Minerva]

You could, for example, buy this Grand Surprise for less than £50k.

https://www.yachtworld.co.uk/yacht/2006-archambault-grand-surprise-8317622/

And given decent breeze off the wind you will definitely fulfill the speed requirement. And it has an interior, but enough of an interior? That's entirely personal...

The vinyl "passion" sticker is probably the only bit of passion to take place on that boat. A cozy weekend retreat it is not!

Looks good fun to sail though

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Can I tow it behind a Ford Mondeo?

The 40ft, lol, it’s 4 tons or something. AcMondeo would struggle to pull a DF920 though they are ‘road transportable’. Probably 2750+kg on a road trailer, so you’d want a fairly serious 4x4 to do it. I used to tow my F27 with a ratty Legacy, the F boat is a fair bit lighter. But no heads compartment, no trim to speak of, naked gelcoat everywhere. Think of a DF920 as a proper yacht but with stabilisers like a kids bike. It’s obviously Scandi decor inside, but recognisable as a boat, unlike most other lightweight yachts. The 40 is all grown up. Another league.

 

[westernman]

The 40ft, lol, it’s 4 tons or something. AcMondeo would struggle to pull a DF920 though they are ‘road transportable’. Probably 2750+kg on a road trailer, so you’d want a fairly serious 4x4 to do it. I used to tow my F27 with a ratty Legacy, the F boat is a fair bit lighter. But no heads compartment, no trim to speak of, naked gelcoat everywhere. Think of a DF920 as a proper yacht but with stabilisers like a kids bike. It’s obviously Scandi decor inside, but recognisable as a boat, unlike most other lightweight yachts. The 40 is all grown up. Another league.

You mean I can't have it all?

I will have to make some compromises.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

You mean I can't have it all?

I will have to make some compromises.

I suggest entering the lottery.

 

[flaming]

The vinyl "passion" sticker is probably the only bit of passion to take place on that boat. A cozy weekend retreat it is not!

Looks good fun to sail though

Other than the fact I have a plumbed in head it looks very similar to the interior of my 1010. Off cruising for 4 or 5 days next week with the ankle biters... Sure it won't be as luxurious as my Dad's old Dufour 40, but I'm not expecting it to be purgatory either.

 

[Cptsideways]

Having a keen interest in the freedom yachts (as a windsurfer with a slow motor sailer) these Kat Ketches appear to have a notch of speed above others and 8 plus knots is not unheard of, frequently under the 50k mark too and that's for full on cruising yachts.

 

[Cptsideways]

when everything else is reefed these can stay fully powered up. The centre board 35's are the fastest apparently.

 

[srm]

Reading one of Uffa Fox's books years ago I remember he commented to the effect that if you have a fast boat you also have the choice to sail it slowly. But, if you have a slow boat there is no choice. Not that I have ever owned a boat capable of more than 8 miles through the water each hour, consistently, hour after hour. We did it twice, both times on a very broad reach from Village Bay, St Kilda, to Pabay Sound at hull speed all the way. And yes, it was comfortable enough to use the galley etc. but then it was an old design from the 50's. A 42ft eight metre cruiser racer designed by McGruer. The stern wave supported the aft overhang with its crest level with the deck.

 

[geem]

Production catamarans kitted out for cruising can average 10 knots, with a beam reach (and for our 38' cruising cat, a sister boat - peak at 21 knots, not that we have bettered 16 knots). I'm not sure a Lagoon could achieve this but Catana and Fps - quite possible. To windward, we stay in bed, or at least we stay at anchor - and enjoy our expansive accomodation (and adhering to the old adage - gentlemen and their wives, should not sail close to the wind than their years..

If we healed to 30 degrees - I'd be scared witless.

Jonathan

My experience with catamarans is they do bursts of high speed followed by lulls of low speeds as you fall off a wave. We tend to only remember the peaks in speed and not the periods doing 5kts in between.
A friend just managed a 201nm in 24 hrs on his nautitech 40 open in winds up to 30kts but with considerable current assistance. His peak speeds were over 16kts but he only averaged 8.3kts. He said it was perfect conditions for the 24 hour run. He keeps his cat super light unlike a lot of other cats we see.
He eventually slowed down because it was so uncomfortable. Inevitably in the open sea, when you get enough wind to go fast, the seas become bigger and you really don't want to go too fast as its not pleasant. Completely different if you are racing

 

[Chiara’s slave]

A couple of vids of the original suggestion. Gives you an ideaof what it’s like sailing at speed, too. The spray is mostly way to leeward, but you can’t guarantee staying dry.

 

[Neeves]

My experience with catamarans is they do bursts of high speed followed by lulls of low speeds as you fall off a wave. We tend to only remember the peaks in speed and not the periods doing 5kts in between.
A friend just managed a 201nm in 24 hrs on his nautitech 40 open in winds up to 30kts but with considerable current assistance. His peak speeds were over 16kts but he only averaged 8.3kts. He said it was perfect conditions for the 24 hour run. He keeps his cat super light unlike a lot of other cats we see.
He eventually slowed down because it was so uncomfortable. Inevitably in the open sea, when you get enough wind to go fast, the seas become bigger and you really don't want to go too fast as its not pleasant. Completely different if you are racing

Averaging 10 knots over 10 hours is unusual, we only did it once, in over 20 years of ownership, so its a novel experience. The conditions for us were not uncomfortable, we were crossing Bass Strait, but you don't relax. In our case the passage was at night which increased the tension (for us, the crew). There is a lot of water from the windward bow, so you need wet weather gear (harnesses and tethers). The rigging is singing a completely different tune and there are songs from parts of the rigging that previously were silent. The biggest noise is from the prodder's stays. As a crew of 2 its not something your can maintain for 'ever' and for us the decision was made by the wind, which eased. We sailed under AP but one of us was at the helm all the time and we had plans should something fail. Failure of the the windward prodder stay was the most likely weak point, or the head sail itself and the immediate plan was to blanket the headsail behind the main which would allow us to drop the headsail as it would be impossible to furl. You need open water, no traffic (or a big crew). For us nothing went wrong, nothing broke - the wind eased, excitement over.

Jonathan

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Averaging 10 knots over 10 hours is unusual, we only did it once, in over 20 years of ownership, so its a novel experience. The conditions for us were not uncomfortable, we were crossing Bass Strait, but you don't relax. In our case the passage was at night which increased the tension (for us, the crew). There is a lot of water from the windward bow, so you need wet weather gear (harnesses and tethers). The rigging is singing a completely different tune and there are songs from parts of the rigging that previously were silent. The biggest noise is from the prodder's stays. As a crew of 2 its not something your can maintain for 'ever' and for us the decision was made by the wind, which eased. We sailed under AP but one of us was at the helm all the time and we had plans should something fail. Failure of the the windward prodder stay was the most likely weak point, or the head sail itself and the immediate plan was to blanket the headsail behind the main which would allow us to drop the headsail as it would be impossible to furl. You need open water, no traffic (or a big crew). For us nothing went wrong, nothing broke - the wind eased, excitement over.

Jonathan

That’s us at over 15kn. Those guys mucking about with the windsurfer are averaging about 12, I would think. Quite relaxed, no bother. If you were sailing in empty water, you could put the autohelm on and pop below to the heads. However, stuff appears ahead of you quite fast….

 

[Neeves]

you could put the autohelm on and pop below to the heads. However, stuff appears ahead of you quite fast….

Especially it its doing 20-25 knots

Jonathan

 

[Refueler]

Maybe the question needs to be rephrased to ask, what's the fastest monohull you can buy for under £50k that has a reasonable level of comfort for cruising?

According to info - the Conqubin 38CR I have bought and intend to race this year .. is in the 10kt+ class of monohulls ... I know when we were sailing her last season with a dirty bottom and genny alone - she hit 6.5 - 7kts in light winds ...
The Conq 38 is certainly comfortable for cruising as well ... with self tacker genny if not racing etc.

I have a picture somewhere of Barracuda 'surfing' at over 20kts ... she was coming back south from Scotland ...

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Especially it its doing 20-25 knots

Jonathan

Exactly. Angus is brave to cruise solo for precisely this reason. There are 2 of us, we might put the AP on to move around the boat, but at least one of us will be on deck, looking out for other fast craft. We sometimes put it on so we can sit on the windward ama. It’s dry, (if the sea state is ok) and you have a great view. I used to steer our DF800 from there with a long tiller extension.

 

[geem]

Averaging 10 knots over 10 hours is unusual, we only did it once, in over 20 years of ownership, so its a novel experience. The conditions for us were not uncomfortable, we were crossing Bass Strait, but you don't relax. In our case the passage was at night which increased the tension (for us, the crew). There is a lot of water from the windward bow, so you need wet weather gear (harnesses and tethers). The rigging is singing a completely different tune and there are songs from parts of the rigging that previously were silent. The biggest noise is from the prodder's stays. As a crew of 2 its not something your can maintain for 'ever' and for us the decision was made by the wind, which eased. We sailed under AP but one of us was at the helm all the time and we had plans should something fail. Failure of the the windward prodder stay was the most likely weak point, or the head sail itself and the immediate plan was to blanket the headsail behind the main which would allow us to drop the headsail as it would be impossible to furl. You need open water, no traffic (or a big crew). For us nothing went wrong, nothing broke - the wind eased, excitement over.

Jonathan

The most excitement we had in a very lightweight Prout Snowgoose 37 was circa 17kts surfing in F8 conditions off the Costa del Morte. The Prout was hardly a rocket ship but we had removed every bit of plywood such as doors, table, under bunk panels and replaced with foam core composite panels. She had a tall rig with laminate sails.
The Prout was a cat from a different era but the thing that I found sailing that boat long distance (across the pond and back) was you needed to keep it super light or your performance disappeared. The problem with super lights is it's super uncomfortable in a big sea. You are like a piece of flotsam. The only direction it was very comfortable was dead down wind. Even sailing up the Irish sea in F5 it could never be described as a comfortable boat.
I think for cruising, the average speed of all types of boat is generally in the same ball park size for size. Cruising catamarans rarely have an average speed higher than a similar sized monohull. I am thinking Lagoon, FP, Nautitech. There will be that memorable trip when all the conditions were right for the multihull to have that set of circumstances where it performed to its full potential, but for every one of those, there will be the miserable and slow up wind beat or motor when you can't make a decent angle without daggerboards, the seas are steep and the cat feels like it's getting beaten up.
If you are very weight conscious then a cat can be a little faster but when you have a Leopard 45 thats about 17t or a Lagoon 52 that is 26t empty, don't expect any exceptional performance on all points of sail

 

[Neeves]

The most excitement we had in a very lightweight Prout Snowgoose 37 was circa 17kts surfing in F8 conditions off the Costa del Morte. The Prout was hardly a rocket ship but we had removed every bit of plywood such as doors, table, under bunk panels and replaced with foam core composite panels. She had a tall rig with laminate sails.
The Prout was a cat from a different era but the thing that I found sailing that boat long distance (across the pond and back) was you needed to keep it super light or your performance disappeared. The problem with super lights is it's super uncomfortable in a big sea. You are like a piece of flotsam. The only direction it was very comfortable was dead down wind. Even sailing up the Irish sea in F5 it could never be described as a comfortable boat.
I think for cruising, the average speed of all types of boat is generally in the same ball park size for size. Cruising catamarans rarely have an average speed higher than a similar sized monohull. I am thinking Lagoon, FP, Nautitech. There will be that memorable trip when all the conditions were right for the multihull to have that set of circumstances where it performed to its full potential, but for every one of those, there will be the miserable and slow up wind beat or motor when you can't make a decent angle without daggerboards, the seas are steep and the cat feels like it's getting beaten up.
If you are very weight conscious then a cat can be a little faster but when you have a Leopard 45 thats about 17t or a Lagoon 52 that is 26t empty, don't expect any exceptional performance on all points of sail

I don't know where ours would fit but a 38' x 22'6" beam, 7t with full fuel 200l and full water 400l, laminate headsail, Dacron main, aluminium anchors 2 x 8kg and 75m of 6mm chain, all ply doors removed, foam bulkheads, foam to water line and then glass below 2 x 2020 Volvos, mini keels and with a focus on weight. Hard on the wind a dog, off the wind .... a delight. Dead down wind - like a wet sponge (sorry its late I cannot think of an appropriate analogy!). But if you are 'cruising' you choose your weather (or destination) except if you are crossing an ocean then your suffering is mitigated when you 'arrive'

The money is in or with the charter market, Leopard 45, Lagoon 52, FPs and their siblings. You cannot convert a Labrador into a Greyhound - though you can convert a Greyhound to a Labrador.

We had a less than accurate forecast, beam reach of 55 knots, seas over the cabin roof, average of 8 knots, 3 reefs in the main, 100% jib for 24 hours, AP (no manual intervention) - we were glad to be on a multihull, with all the displays in the saloon. Heading north and crossing Bass Strait.

Jonathan

 

[geem]

We had a less than accurate forecast, beam reach of 55 knots, seas over the cabin roof, average of 8 knots, 3 reefs in the main, 100% jib for 24 hours, AP (no manual intervention) - we were glad to be on a multihull, with all the displays in the saloon. Heading north and crossing Bass Strait.

Jonathan
[/QUOTE]
Interesting. My experience of being in strong winds and big seas in my Prout 37 were that we needed a more seaworthy boat. I was always conscious of the risk of being flipped over. We came very close on one occasion. For this reason and the abilty to carry a lot more gear, we now have a heavy bluewater boat that inspires tremendous confidence.
I always felt like we had to look after the catamaran in poor weather whereas the monohull looks after us. In our recent crossing, we sailed through a low pressure system. The peak winds were only 33 kts true wind speed according to our instruments, but we sailed very close to the centre a low. This gave us seas up to about 4/5m but also a similar cross swell. When the wind was blowing, it was raining such that there was little shelter under the sprayhood. I retired below, closed to hatch and put the kettle on. The wind noise stopped, the sound of crashing seas stopped and you enter a space of relative calm. It was a bit weird opening the hatch and sticking your head out and seeing this very different world outside.