Comfortable cruising at 10 knots on a budget?

[MisterBaxter]

My very brief multihull experience left me feeling that downwind, the speed made it considerably more comfortable because we were moving closer to the speed of the waves, so that the motion was slower. And very much less rolling of course, although not none with a quartering sea.

 

[westernman]

The gentleman asked for comfort. That is never comfortable, even if, and it is an if, it were ever to be able to maintain 10knots. You’d need a bucket in the cockpit for when it all got too much for your bowels, for starters.

Comfort is being able to make a cup of tea while heeled at 30 degrees with the big asymmetric flying.

I bet you are not nearly as comfortable when your boat is heeled 30 degrees.

 

[Neeves]

Hello, it might be possible to get a Dragonfly 920 for that money, but it’ll be like house buying in the 1980s, prepare to be gazumped, and be prepared to spend money on the boat. 60k is more realistic. We can cruise at 10kn with a tender, a fridge, food, water and fuel. A lot more if you ditch some of that. I can’t offhand think of another production boat that ticks those boxes. You’ll be way more comfortable, particularly short handed, than ypu would be on any mono with aspirations to 10kn continuous.

Btw, if any other cruising boat, say, under 50ft can go to windward quicker than us, I have yet to meet it.

Production catamarans kitted out for cruising can average 10 knots, with a beam reach (and for our 38' cruising cat, a sister boat - peak at 21 knots, not that we have bettered 16 knots). I'm not sure a Lagoon could achieve this but Catana and Fps - quite possible. To windward, we stay in bed, or at least we stay at anchor - and enjoy our expansive accomodation (and adhering to the old adage - gentlemen and their wives, should not sail close to the wind than their years..

If we healed to 30 degrees - I'd be scared witless.

Jonathan

 

[westernman]

Production catamarans kitted out for cruising can average 10 knots, with a beam reach (and for our 38' cruising cat, a sister boat - peak at 21 knots, not that we have bettered 16 knots). I'm not sure a Lagoon could achieve this but Catana and Fps - quite possible. To windward, we stay in bed, or at least we stay at anchor - and enjoy our expansive accomodation (and adhering to the old adage - gentlemen and their wives, should not sail close to the wind than their years..

Jonathan

Been there done that (actually 13 knots) with the assistance of one engine while on a beam reach in a Lagoon 40 something.

But one which is not falling apart or has already sunk, is certainly a lot more than 50K.

 

[Neeves]

Been there done that (actually 13 knots) with the assistance of one engine while on a beam reach in a Lagoon 40 something.

We are always learning. . I'm not sure you needed the engine.

Jonathan

 

[westernman]

We are always learning. . I'm not sure you needed the engine.

Jonathan

I think the engine added about 3 knots.
It was not my boat, and I was not driving it, but we were in a hurry for some reason.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Production catamarans kitted out for cruising can average 10 knots, with a beam reach (and for our 38' cruising cat, a sister boat - peak at 21 knots, not that we have bettered 16 knots). I'm not sure a Lagoon could achieve this but Catana and Fps - quite possible. To windward, we stay in bed, or at least we stay at anchor - and enjoy our expansive accomodation (and adhering to the old adage - gentlemen and their wives, should not sail close to the wind than their years..

If we healed to 30 degrees - I'd be scared witless.

Jonathan

Sure they can. Is there one that can do that consistently, passage plan for 10 knots, that you can buy for 50k though. There are certainly dozens of boats that can achieve the 10 knots, but like the huge monos suggested, they are nearer 500k than 50. If I could afford to be a gentleman, I might consider not sailing to windward. But actually I quite enjoy it. The feeling of relentless power from the boat, the explosion of spray as the lee ama slices into a wave crest, it’s all part of the Dragonfly experience. All while trying not to scare yourself witless, we are 100% with you there. We make our tea at 10 degrees max, on a stove without fiddles. The kettle stays on, no prob, up to about 25kn of wind. Then it requires human intervention to remain in place.

Btw any normal person would get scared witless long before any possibility of heeling to 30 degrees, and put a reef or 2 in. You’ll go only a little slower, but it’s much more comfortable and much gentler on your nerves.

Performance derived handicap numbers seem to say that a mini transat is about 25% slower than us as an all round figure. They agree with Neeves that a 40-50 foot cruising cat won’t be too far off, depending on design and load. Catanas and the like are well known to be pretty quick. We chose our boat partly on cost grounds, partly on practicality. We transit a swing bridge to our mooring, we have a maximum beam to contend with, and must fold one ama to go through. In truth, the Dazcat we love is just a dream, it wouldn’t fit.

 

[jaminb]

thanks all, so apart from a Dragonfly, my original brief looks impossible. What about if the average speed was reduced to say 8 knots (maybe more like Patrick's if my 10kn was exaggerated!)

thanks

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Add the Corsair F27 to your list.

8 knots does make it easier to find a boat, though of course you’ll lose the pocket cruiser aspect, and be into big running costs. Most 50 ft monos can stay at 8kn or above for sustained cruising, though I’d hesitate to use that as a passage planning number.

 

[Beelzebub]

I once sailed a Locke Crowther designed Buccaneer 40 trimaran across to Antigua. It sailed happily to windward at 12 knots and speeds of 20 knots were common once cracked-off.

It was comfortable too, in a somewhat spartan way. I appreciated being able to put a mug of tea on the cockpit table when trucking along at 15 knots, knowing that it would not spill.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

All things Dragonfly, including a for sale section. You’ll notice how solid 920 prices are. Dragonfly Trimarans For Sale / Wanted - Dragonfly Trimarans User Forum I can’t find any F27s for sale in uk, though there’s lots in the US, unsurprisingly.

 

[onesea]

thanks all, so apart from a Dragonfly, my original brief looks impossible. What about if the average speed was reduced to say 8 knots (maybe more like Patrick's if my 10kn was exaggerated!)

thanks

Look for an old race boat, J or IOR you should find well within budget.
However you will spend the change making it comfortable and manageable.
Yachts for sale UK, used yachts, new sailing yacht sales, free photo ads - Apollo Duck

I am sure someone will have something to say about this one:
Corsair F24 for sale UK, Corsair boats for sale, Corsair used boat sales, Corsair Sailing Yachts For Sale Corsair F24 Mk1 1993 - Apollo Duck

 

[MisterBaxter]

Maybe the question needs to be rephrased to ask, what's the fastest monohull you can buy for under £50k that has a reasonable level of comfort for cruising?

 

[Chiara’s slave]

F-24, lovely little boat, very manageable as a trailer sailer. F boats are unsuitable for marina berths, the sides of the floats are immersed when folded, you need a swinging mooring or a very very tolerant marina. That will do the speed, and be at least as comfortable as a mini transat, much much more so in terms of sailing, similar in port. The engineering is fabulous, sailing characteristics a little different to the dragonfly, all down to float volume to displacement ratio. Having owned both, if anyone wants chapter and verse, ask, I’ll not induce boredom from all the dyed in the wool Contessa owners otherwise. A 24ft boat isn’t comfort by most standards of course. If you want a proper bog with a wooden door and a holding tank, you’ll begin to understand why DF920s are so expensive.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Maybe the question needs to be rephrased to ask, what's the fastest monohull you can buy for under £50k that has a reasonable level of comfort for cruising?

Anderson 22 of course.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

This might help. The RYA NHC base list. The numbers being performance derived are at least an indication of real world performance. Sadly the Anderson doesn’t look like a good bet. I think you’d need to look for at least 1.100 to get a boat with that kind of performance.
https://www.clyc.info/wp-content/uploads/2015/Cruiser Docs/NHCBaseList010614.pdf

I know of a Reflex 38 for sale, which is a really nice boat to sail, and might be a 8kn cruiser.

 

[Supertramp]

Yesterday in about 7 knts of wind everybody around me was doing 2-3 knts. Except those motoring. If you want to go faster carry less weight, buy good sails and avoid heavy cruising designs. Or go down the tri/sport boat route.

I'm not sure Patrick Laine gained as much as you might think changing from a Bavaria, at least on mixed wind passages.

The fun for me is sailing the boat well and to its best whatever the boat or conditions. So long as I can plan and deliver 5knts average on long passages I'm happy. And comfortable.

 

[Tranona]

thanks all, so apart from a Dragonfly, my original brief looks impossible. What about if the average speed was reduced to say 8 knots (maybe more like Patrick's if my 10kn was exaggerated!)

thanks

Depends on how you define your "8 knots". That is about 0.5 knot greater than the displacement speed of an 11m yacht, and few cruising yachts have a high enough sail area to develop enough power to exceed this except in rare conditions of offwind in flattish water when the more modern hull form may lift and plane for short periods, or when running down a wave. Such speeds are simply not achievable in all conditions, nor is it comfortable. I assume you are taking your figures from Laine's delivery trip on the 13m RM where they averaged just under 9 knots, rather than his smaller boat. He made the point in the video that his Bavaria could average around 7 knots or 160 miles a day in ideal conditions.

As suggested in post#32 an old racing boat may have the potential for higher passage averages than a "normal" cruising boat but whether you can achieve them consistently while cruising for pleasure is another matter. For better averages with a monohull there is no substitute for waterline length as a basis. Look at the numbers here sailboatdata.com/sailboat/barracuda-45/ to get an idea of what is needed (or was nearly 40 years ago) to get near your 8 knots.

 

[andsarkit]

A Woods Banshee could do it and be within budget. I have sailed on one belonging to a friend and 14 knots was comfortable in the right sea conditions but not so comfortable when beating. Fit out was a bit basic to keep the weight down but enough room for all the cruising gear.
Banshee
Banshee review

 

[Buck Turgidson]

What do you do in a Fast tri when it's blowing 40kts? In my little heavy mono I can lash the tiller and go to sleep or if it's really rough heave to. That to me is the definition of comfort. I have no experience of multihulls so wonder what you do?