Athene V30
Active member
Collision yacht\'s solo skipper \'foolish\': MAIB
Watch out we'll be in for criticism for this one!
Clicky
Watch out we'll be in for criticism for this one!
Clicky
Collision yacht's solo skipper 'foolish': MAIB
- Thread starter Athene V30
- Start date
co256
Member
Re: Collision yacht\'s solo skipper \'foolish\': MAIB
Yup.... trouble at mill
Yup.... trouble at mill
C
Chrusty1
Guest
Re: Collision yacht\'s solo skipper \'foolish\': MAIB
Shouldn't think so, chap was being a muppet is all!
Shouldn't think so, chap was being a muppet is all!
co256
Member
Re: Collision yacht\'s solo skipper \'foolish\': MAIB
It's all grist to the millstone.
It's all grist to the millstone.
NickiCrutchfield
New member
Re: Collision yacht\'s solo skipper \'foolish\': MAIB
It is a worrying article. Bugger.
It is a worrying article. Bugger.
co256
Member
Re: Collision yacht\'s solo skipper \'foolish\': MAIB
Interesting that we only appear to get the fisherman's point of view?
Did the mini sailor have anything to say or was he too embarrassed?
Interesting that we only appear to get the fisherman's point of view?
Did the mini sailor have anything to say or was he too embarrassed?
C
Chrusty1
Guest
Re: Collision yacht\'s solo skipper \'foolish\': MAIB
He probably sneaked off to the nearest hostelry, to take stock, and probably drank most of it! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
He probably sneaked off to the nearest hostelry, to take stock, and probably drank most of it! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Superflid
New member
Re: Collision yacht\'s solo skipper \'foolish\': MAIB
"The skipper saw the fishing vessel, and having assessed the situation as safe he went below, set the timer and deliberately went to sleep."
Knowing that the course of a fishing vessel is likely to change at unpredictable (and seemingly random!) moments, and that fisherman aren't always free to keep a proper lookout, this seems a poorly thought-out move to me.
With his "sleep timer" set for 20mins, it obviously meant that less than 20 mins longer awake would have seen him safely clear.
I admit to having little experience of offshore sailing, but would like to think I might have been awake long enough to ensure I was clear of any shipping before a kip.
"The skipper saw the fishing vessel, and having assessed the situation as safe he went below, set the timer and deliberately went to sleep."
Knowing that the course of a fishing vessel is likely to change at unpredictable (and seemingly random!) moments, and that fisherman aren't always free to keep a proper lookout, this seems a poorly thought-out move to me.
With his "sleep timer" set for 20mins, it obviously meant that less than 20 mins longer awake would have seen him safely clear.
I admit to having little experience of offshore sailing, but would like to think I might have been awake long enough to ensure I was clear of any shipping before a kip.
C
Chrusty1
Guest
Re: Collision yacht\'s solo skipper \'foolish\': MAIB
He must also have known that fishing vessels with gear down have right of way.................Or did he? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
He must also have known that fishing vessels with gear down have right of way.................Or did he? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Gargleblaster
Well-known member
Re: Collision yacht\'s solo skipper \'foolish\': MAIB
I can't see a problem. No-one was killed and there was no damage to the trawler. The mini transat sailor took a risk and it didn't pay off for him.
Sleep deprivation's worst effect is possibly the quality of decision making. In this case the mini transat skipper decided he could risk sleeping but in this case it was a bad decision.
Fishing boats like sailing boats are erratic at the best of times both when fishing when they have right of way and even when steaming to a new fishing position when supposedly a boat under sail has right of way. My theory is that if the fishing boat is less 3 miles away I don't sleep. And of course this further exacerbates the need for sleep.
Often in the Western Approaches you are better to sleep during the day when at least the fishing boats are more alert and likely to take avoiding action early. Fishermen also need to sleep and may be running short handed while trawling at night.
I'm interested to read that the 'raincatcher' radar reflector was effective.
I can't see a problem. No-one was killed and there was no damage to the trawler. The mini transat sailor took a risk and it didn't pay off for him.
Sleep deprivation's worst effect is possibly the quality of decision making. In this case the mini transat skipper decided he could risk sleeping but in this case it was a bad decision.
Fishing boats like sailing boats are erratic at the best of times both when fishing when they have right of way and even when steaming to a new fishing position when supposedly a boat under sail has right of way. My theory is that if the fishing boat is less 3 miles away I don't sleep. And of course this further exacerbates the need for sleep.
Often in the Western Approaches you are better to sleep during the day when at least the fishing boats are more alert and likely to take avoiding action early. Fishermen also need to sleep and may be running short handed while trawling at night.
I'm interested to read that the 'raincatcher' radar reflector was effective.
Superflid
New member
Re: Collision yacht\'s solo skipper \'foolish\': MAIB
[ QUOTE ]
I can't see a problem. No-one was killed and there was no damage to the trawler. The mini transat sailor took a risk and it didn't pay off for him.
[/ QUOTE ]
Good point!
[ QUOTE ]
Sleep deprivation's worst effect is possibly the quality of decision making. In this case the mini transat skipper decided he could risk sleeping but in this case it was a bad decision.
[/ QUOTE ]
Something I'm going to have to learn about, would I have made the same decision tired?
[ QUOTE ]
Fishing boats like sailing boats are erratic at the best of times
[/ QUOTE ]
I have plenty of experience of that and would agree! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
[ QUOTE ]
I'm interested to read that the 'raincatcher' radar reflector was effective.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've got a "raincatcher" type, but might swap it....
Chatting with Graham (Golden Dragon) yesterday, told me that during the AZAB he had a ship actually looking for him as his reflector had showed him on their radar at (I think, Graham can correct me....) 16 miles. They were amazed that the signal had come from such a small boat.
Can't remember what reflector it was, but not an "active" type.
With a bit of luck he'll see this and put me out of my misery!
[ QUOTE ]
I can't see a problem. No-one was killed and there was no damage to the trawler. The mini transat sailor took a risk and it didn't pay off for him.
[/ QUOTE ]
Good point!
[ QUOTE ]
Sleep deprivation's worst effect is possibly the quality of decision making. In this case the mini transat skipper decided he could risk sleeping but in this case it was a bad decision.
[/ QUOTE ]
Something I'm going to have to learn about, would I have made the same decision tired?
[ QUOTE ]
Fishing boats like sailing boats are erratic at the best of times
[/ QUOTE ]
I have plenty of experience of that and would agree! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
[ QUOTE ]
I'm interested to read that the 'raincatcher' radar reflector was effective.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've got a "raincatcher" type, but might swap it....
Chatting with Graham (Golden Dragon) yesterday, told me that during the AZAB he had a ship actually looking for him as his reflector had showed him on their radar at (I think, Graham can correct me....) 16 miles. They were amazed that the signal had come from such a small boat.
Can't remember what reflector it was, but not an "active" type.
With a bit of luck he'll see this and put me out of my misery!
andlauer
New member
Re: Collision yacht\'s solo skipper \'foolish\': MAIB
Bonjour
During the JC preparation I "experienced" a lot of things including a near collision with a Netherland cargo.
I was just downstairs dealing with navigation. i was informed by the cargo blowing the horn. I jumped in the cockpit. There was a huge blue wall just in front of Sterenn. Hopefully the wall ended by the stern !
You don't need to sleep to be out of watch !
Eric
PS : The captain went out and made me an unambigious hand sign ! He was right. I was happy to be alive.
Bonjour
During the JC preparation I "experienced" a lot of things including a near collision with a Netherland cargo.
I was just downstairs dealing with navigation. i was informed by the cargo blowing the horn. I jumped in the cockpit. There was a huge blue wall just in front of Sterenn. Hopefully the wall ended by the stern !
You don't need to sleep to be out of watch !
Eric
PS : The captain went out and made me an unambigious hand sign ! He was right. I was happy to be alive.
Pye_End
Well-known member
Re: Collision yacht\'s solo skipper \'foolish\': MAIB
[ QUOTE ]
He must also have known that fishing vessels with gear down have right of way.................Or did he? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
And of cours, as every good mariner knows, stand on vessels are allowed not to keep a decent watch themselves, and are allowed to smack into yachts.
[ QUOTE ]
He must also have known that fishing vessels with gear down have right of way.................Or did he? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
And of cours, as every good mariner knows, stand on vessels are allowed not to keep a decent watch themselves, and are allowed to smack into yachts.
C
Chrusty1
Guest
Re: Collision yacht\'s solo skipper \'foolish\': MAIB
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He must also have known that fishing vessels with gear down have right of way.................Or did he? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
And of cours, as every good mariner knows, stand on vessels are allowed not to keep a decent watch themselves, and are allowed to smack into yachts.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know what axe you are grinding, but it was the yacht that smacked into the trawler, there was very little the Mate of the trawler could have done, without putting his gear at risk. and possibly his ship at risk.
Read this again....
2. Sailing alone, under autopilot in this busy area, in challenging weather conditions and at night was at best foolhardy, and the decision to sleep when a trawler was known to be fishing close-by could perhaps be considered somewhat reckless. When embarking on any single-handed voyage, consider all the risks, including the risks to those you encounter and those who may have to rescue you.'
The yotty was being a muppet, end of.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He must also have known that fishing vessels with gear down have right of way.................Or did he? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
And of cours, as every good mariner knows, stand on vessels are allowed not to keep a decent watch themselves, and are allowed to smack into yachts.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know what axe you are grinding, but it was the yacht that smacked into the trawler, there was very little the Mate of the trawler could have done, without putting his gear at risk. and possibly his ship at risk.
Read this again....
2. Sailing alone, under autopilot in this busy area, in challenging weather conditions and at night was at best foolhardy, and the decision to sleep when a trawler was known to be fishing close-by could perhaps be considered somewhat reckless. When embarking on any single-handed voyage, consider all the risks, including the risks to those you encounter and those who may have to rescue you.'
The yotty was being a muppet, end of.
andlauer
New member
Re: Collision yacht\'s solo skipper \'foolish\': MAIB
Bonsoir
Nothing to do with lawyers.
As the mini 6.5 was destroyed and the trawler had nothing, he was wright !
Just keep out of the way af the elephant.
Eric /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
Bonsoir
Nothing to do with lawyers.
As the mini 6.5 was destroyed and the trawler had nothing, he was wright !
Just keep out of the way af the elephant.
Eric /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
C
Chrusty1
Guest
Re: Collision yacht\'s solo skipper \'foolish\': MAIB
"Just keep out of the way af the elephant. "
Just plain ordinary common sense, people can waffle all they like about colregs and [--word removed--], but in the real world, colregs are sometimes not worth a tin of beans.
What is so hard to understand?? If it /she is bigger than you keep out of the bloody way!
That little rant was not directed at you Eric, just at some peoples attitudes.
"Just keep out of the way af the elephant. "
Just plain ordinary common sense, people can waffle all they like about colregs and [--word removed--], but in the real world, colregs are sometimes not worth a tin of beans.
What is so hard to understand?? If it /she is bigger than you keep out of the bloody way!
That little rant was not directed at you Eric, just at some peoples attitudes.
Pye_End
Well-known member
Re: Collision yacht\'s solo skipper \'foolish\': MAIB
[ QUOTE ]
there was very little the Mate of the trawler could have done, without putting his gear at risk.
[/ QUOTE ]
Indeed.
I do not deny that there is absolutey no doubt that the yachtsman made a poor decision which nearly cost him his life. Chugging at 10 knots seems a tadge fast to justify a 20 minute sleep. Poor decisions happen sometimes, and as everybody knows the sea often cashes in on them. No doubt sleep deprivation did not help.
I was really responding to your COLREGS comment - as the stand on vessel you cannot always assume that the other party has seen you, or will comply with the regs. Fishing boats so often seem so immmersed in their task that even when you think that you have taken action to avoid them that they manoever in such a way as to give you a new situation to avoid. The yacht was under autopilot so its heading would have been fairly easy to judge, so it was really a matter for the fishing boat to decide whether they had been seen or not, and to judge the speed. As the report said - 'The trawler's mate saw the yacht closing, but decided to act too late'. Why did he act too late? If he knew that he was hampered by his gear then surely an earlier manoever would have been appropriate? If he had instead seen a freighter bearing down on him do you think that he would have acted differently?
The blame for the situation appears to rest with the yacht. The blame for the collision has to be shared, even if it 90/10.
[ QUOTE ]
there was very little the Mate of the trawler could have done, without putting his gear at risk.
[/ QUOTE ]
Indeed.
I do not deny that there is absolutey no doubt that the yachtsman made a poor decision which nearly cost him his life. Chugging at 10 knots seems a tadge fast to justify a 20 minute sleep. Poor decisions happen sometimes, and as everybody knows the sea often cashes in on them. No doubt sleep deprivation did not help.
I was really responding to your COLREGS comment - as the stand on vessel you cannot always assume that the other party has seen you, or will comply with the regs. Fishing boats so often seem so immmersed in their task that even when you think that you have taken action to avoid them that they manoever in such a way as to give you a new situation to avoid. The yacht was under autopilot so its heading would have been fairly easy to judge, so it was really a matter for the fishing boat to decide whether they had been seen or not, and to judge the speed. As the report said - 'The trawler's mate saw the yacht closing, but decided to act too late'. Why did he act too late? If he knew that he was hampered by his gear then surely an earlier manoever would have been appropriate? If he had instead seen a freighter bearing down on him do you think that he would have acted differently?
The blame for the situation appears to rest with the yacht. The blame for the collision has to be shared, even if it 90/10.
C
Chrusty1
Guest
Re: Collision yacht\'s solo skipper \'foolish\': MAIB
As Eric said, Keep out of the way of elephants, 90/10 don't come into it, it was the yotties fault, do you really expect a couple of million quids worth of beam trawler to be titting about, because some pleasure sailor don't know what he was doing???
I don't know where you do your sailing, but they were in the real world, and the yotty 'ucked up.
I wasn't really making a "Colregs" statement, in fact I said in one post that the colregs don't amount to a tin of beans in some situations......I can only repeat, if it's bigger than you, (meaning a ship) stay out of it's bloody way.
I am not going to enter into some hypathetical discussion with you about what could have or should have happened. What happened is what happened.....live with it.
As Eric said, Keep out of the way of elephants, 90/10 don't come into it, it was the yotties fault, do you really expect a couple of million quids worth of beam trawler to be titting about, because some pleasure sailor don't know what he was doing???
I don't know where you do your sailing, but they were in the real world, and the yotty 'ucked up.
I wasn't really making a "Colregs" statement, in fact I said in one post that the colregs don't amount to a tin of beans in some situations......I can only repeat, if it's bigger than you, (meaning a ship) stay out of it's bloody way.
I am not going to enter into some hypathetical discussion with you about what could have or should have happened. What happened is what happened.....live with it.
Pye_End
Well-known member
Re: Collision yacht\'s solo skipper \'foolish\': MAIB
[ QUOTE ]
do you really expect a couple of million quids worth of beam trawler to be titting about, because some pleasure sailor don't know what he was doing???
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes - if somebody's life was at risk.
[ QUOTE ]
do you really expect a couple of million quids worth of beam trawler to be titting about, because some pleasure sailor don't know what he was doing???
[/ QUOTE ]
Yes - if somebody's life was at risk.
PacketRat
New member
Re: Collision yacht\'s solo skipper \'foolish\': MAIB
I like the MAIB. I've read some of their reports and they seemed to me to be authoritative and balanced. It is a reminder to be vigilant. Not all trawlers are going to be too concerned about forcing a yottie to make a small detour. As we say, "might is right". Rules are double edged. Even if a yottie is stupid enough to run down a trawler, and dies, then the trawler skipper is still going to have to face the music about what precautions he/she took to avoid the collision. There's no winner in this argument.
I take the point about night time alertness, about fatigue as a factor, and to remember that even the best of us have human fallibilities. What else? I guess a radar with guardzone would have worked. How about AIS?
Is there anything else we can do to prepare ourselves?
I like the MAIB. I've read some of their reports and they seemed to me to be authoritative and balanced. It is a reminder to be vigilant. Not all trawlers are going to be too concerned about forcing a yottie to make a small detour. As we say, "might is right". Rules are double edged. Even if a yottie is stupid enough to run down a trawler, and dies, then the trawler skipper is still going to have to face the music about what precautions he/she took to avoid the collision. There's no winner in this argument.
I take the point about night time alertness, about fatigue as a factor, and to remember that even the best of us have human fallibilities. What else? I guess a radar with guardzone would have worked. How about AIS?
Is there anything else we can do to prepare ourselves?
