Choice of boat for Bluewater

[contessaman]

Hi All,

I'm an experienced sailor but UK only. In around 5 years time my present employment will come to an end, I will be 38 years old and I intend to take about 2 years completing an extended atlantic circuit - before starting a new career. At some stage I will sell our 32 foot Beneteau and buy something suitable for this undertaking.

The main factor that will influence my choice of boat size will be whether I can persuade my wife and daughters to accompany me on this cruise. If I could, life would be sweet. I'd have about £100k to spend on the 'new' boat and we'd have a healthy income from renting out our home and a modest pension I have. My gut feeling in this instance would be a vessel around 50' LOA.

On the other hand, my wife probably wont go for it, she doesn't like the idea of 'home schooling' the girls any more than she does spending 12 moths a year afloat. So option B is a smaller boat that I can singlehand. Plus a much reduced income if still running a house and family back home. Gut feeling, around 34' LOA.

Or....quite possibly the most likely and realistic option, will be me finding a boat that I can sail happily on my own, but is large enough that the family can join me for all the holidays. once again running things at home would leave me on a much smaller budget.. Gut feeling 38-40' LOA.

with that in mind, are mooring fees that would be encountered in say the canaries, cape verde islands and the Caribbean simply pro-rata on length? or do they jump up if your boat is over a certain length?

Are there any other considerations on choice of boat length?

I'm confident that I have an eye for choosing a good boat for offshore use in terms of an appropriate displacement/length ratio and keel configuration and rig etc. But what I don't have is the experience of anchoring/ mooring/ coming ashore for repairs etc etc in these countries.

I certainly don't want to be crammed into a small boat. And part of the reason for my cruise will be to do plenty of scuba diving along the way. this means dive gear and a compressor on board, not to mention a spare bunk or two for my various dive buddies to fly out and meet me for some diving once i'm on location.

any thoughts, experiences, lessons learned welcomed with thanks...

 

[GrahamM376]

There will no doubt be lots of views on what boat you should buy but, to answer one of your questions, yes marina and yard charges are based on LOA and tend to jump quite a bit for 12m and over.

We have a 11.5m centre cockpit boat which we live on and cruise 9/12 and I can single hand it but it's easier with two. As far as cost is concerned, very suitable boats can be had at the moment for 50 - 75% of your budget, leaving plenty left for updating equipment.

 

[typhoonNige]

Another consideration is the taxes now levied by the Spanish government. In the Canaries we have seen that these jump considerably for vessels of 12m or more. Thankfully we are under this threshold but are still managing very well with a boat of 11.3m.

Unless buying a boat already equipped for extended offshore passages be sure to set aside plenty of money (probably £10-20K) for the necessary upgrades.

 

[demonboy]

Unless buying a boat already equipped for extended offshore passages be sure to set aside plenty of money (probably £10-20K) for the necessary upgrades.

It's generally recommended to keep one quarter of your initial budget for repairs, upgrades and so on. With this in mind, look for boats priced in the £70-100k bracket and expect to negotiate down. If you get something for £75k you'll have plenty left for upgrades.

 

[RobbieW]

... an extended atlantic circuit ... So option B is a smaller boat that I can singlehand....

Based on the experience of a friend this year, you will probably find it difficult or impossible to get boat insurance for a single handed transat - if thats a factor for you. Your thought about a 38-40' should allow you to take a couple of mates across the pond and alleviate the insurance question.

 

[Aardee]

Assuming you go for the singlehanded option, what's wrong with using your current Beneteau? - It's already yours, it's a known quantity (good and bad) and you can spend the intervening years prepping it for your adventure.

Whatever you decide, good luck, fair winds and you go with my absolute jealousy

 

[Tranona]

Unless you spend a lot of time in marinas, berthing costs are a very small part of overall cruising costs. Bit of a caveat - if you locate your boat in some parts of the western Med then you have little choice but to use marinas so it does become a big part of overall costs. 12m is typically a point at which costs jump which is why sub 12m boats are so popular as they are big enough to do the job.

In the overall budget for 2 years cruising it is perhaps more important to choose the boat you are happiest with and is best equipped as repairs/replacements can be a killer once you are on the move. There is plenty of choice in the 34-40' size range so aim for the most complete and best condition boat you can afford leaving about 25% of your purchase budget to cover maintenance and upgrades for your 2 years.

 

[tcm]

UK is one of the most expensive marina places - not many if any real big boat-centric developments near London, for example. So most other places (even most but not all of the med) is cheaper - the more expensive parts include parts of Balearics and S France. In the caribbean, you wouldn't want to be in a marina most of the time - far nicer on the hook in actual blue water, though you need a dink, and quite a good one - at least 8ft and 10hp, really.

My feeling is that you already know if family will come - and if they aren't keen as heck, they aren't coming but they don't want to upset you.

Btw you say "UK only" - if you can sail in UK waters, almost everywhere else is easier in terms of weather predictability, tides etc.

Boatwise, bigger is better. Up to about 65 feet, boats are EASIER to sail when they're bigger as they're less cluttered and hence faster to get around.

You can get major liftouts and repairs in frinstance Lanzarote, but not so great facilities in Las Palmas. But generally actually everywhere is loads better than in sucky-teeth uk for repairs. Remember, the UK is actually a small irrelevant island of Northern Europe - most boat bits aren't made there.

Motor-wise, Yanmar seems best for spares availability. For example, you can buy engine mounts off the shelf in Tahiti, starter motors the same in Martinique, oil seals in Canaries and Carib, all fine. Here in St Martin there's supermarkets full of boat gear, with dinghy dock outside, miles better than any European boatfixxy place really.

 

[contessaman]

thanks for all the info so far guys

seems like if im not taking family full time then its something around 39 feet im after. Dammit that rules out the rival 41! and another I like - the grand soleil 39 (the older one that looks like a swan) is actually over 40 foot.

I absolutely take on board (no pun intended) the advice of keeping plenty of budget back after the purchase. I would certainly want to re-rig the vessel. not to mention replace keel bolts if the boat doesn't have an encapsulated keel.. Ideally I'd like to sell the beneteau in around 2 years then buy the boat, giving me 2-3 years uk cruising to upgrade/renew/iron out snags and just plain get to know the boat before going. Im pretty handy at DIY boatwork so if I could get something at a good price I would enjoy the refit and I could upgrade the boat for the undertaking at the same time.

I have plenty of friends who would love to help crew some of the ocean passages. But, I do at least half of my UK sailing on my own.... the personal challenge of some of the oceanic sectors being made singlehanded is part of the appeal to me.

There is one more consideration in my choice of vessel. Id naturally go for a long keeler or a low aspect fin and skeg. For the directional stability downwind and the fact that a boat like this is more likely to take care of me, than need me helming it like a wizard to keep it safe in bad weather. However, this journey I intend to make will be a bit different from what most people do.

I know almost everyone crosses the pond from the canaries or cape verdes. I want to do something a bit different. I'd push south to the cape verdes, but after enjoying a months diving there, I want to cross the equator and sail south to ascension island, before making the short Atlantic crossing to recife, then north to re-gain the traditional Atlantic route in the caribbean.

The trouble is ( i have been planning this for some years!) looking at the planning charts. the leg to ascension, wont have favourable winds for long. first the doldrums, then a reliable 20 knot headwind all the way!! the currents will be on the beam so will slightly hinder too. I'm absolutley not going anywhere near africa. I'll need a good supply of fuel to motor through the calms but then a boat that sails well to windward for the long slog against the wind to ascension. the rhumb line is 1200nm, sailing to windward that could double. The boat will then need to sit well at anchor for a month or so at ascension.

so I need a 39 foot long keeler that morphs into a princess motor cruiser to cross the equator then turns into a J/109 for the beat to ascension, then turns back into a long keeler for the rest of the journey.....

If only transformers made boats....

It will be an epic cruise though. UK- La Coruna - Madeira - Canaries - Cape verdes - Ascension - Recife - Caribbean - Bahamas - Florida - Carolinas - Bermuda - Azores - UK.

They are all places I have either been with work or travelled to on diving holidays. But to take them in under sail and dive the sites along the way... ...well, its something I have to do before I die.

 

[JackIron]

Hi we have just returned (in September) from an Atlantic Circuit with our two young girls (aged 10 and 8). 12500 miles, 3 continents, 48 islands and no seasickness! Just a bloody good time!

We have experience of doing a circuit as just a couple on a 33' Ebbtide (steel), and then again on our currently family boat with the kids, which is much bigger - she is 53' on deck, but 60' overall (we have long overhangs!) and aluminium - but have had experience with multihulls in between!

The answer as to whether it is more expensive in a bigger boat is, yes - but not by the amount you might expect once away from the UK. It depends entirely on your attitude to marinas (and to a certain extent on when you leave) and your ability to fix gear yourself - the bigger boat also gave us much greater autonomy (we carry 1.5 tonnes each of water and fuel). Our first marina after leaving the UK was Porto (the new marina on the Douro) and this cost us all of 11 Euros for the night it would have been 8 in our 33' boat - but that was entirely due to us hitting this stretch in the 'off season' as we left the UK in September last year. Shallow draft is a definite bonus (we have a centreboard), as you can get to cracking anchorages that others cant and are forced into marinas - (the wee creek at Alvor between Lagos and Portamao is a good example).

Once clear of Europe things get much cheaper - we headed to Morocco (Euro3 equivalent per night in Mohammedia, thence to Canaries where we did have to venture into marinas - I am looking at my invoice for Las Palmas right now and its telling me it was Euro 12.86 plus Euro 0.90 tax (13.76 per night) and that was on the 'posh' pontoon...its calculated by meter squared by the way so beam is also a consideration. So not excessive. We were then 6 months going up through the Windwards/leewards/BVI's/Turks and Caicos/Bahamas/Bermuda and paid no mooring fees whatsoever, other than for a quick haul and antifoul in the BVI's which was a third of the cost of hauling in the UK. We spent a month in the Azores - Euro 5 per night in a nice wee marina in Terceira prior to coming back to the UK, where we have a swinging mooring that would cost the same if we kept a rowing boat on it! The reality is that no matter what size of boat you have, it'll cost precisely the amount of money that you have....end of story.

The kids were great and got a huge amount of experience from it - attitudes to home schooling vary from kid boat to kid boat - most eventually relaxed - and followed a very relaxed regime - in which other 'school' can they explore the souks in Morocco, walk inside active volcanoes in the Azores, and watch them erupting on Montserrat, dive with rays, turtles and sharks in the Bahamas, and they now have pen friends all over the world. but I cant say it wasn't hard at times, with tears (on both sides) occasionally ! Their perspective has changed remarkably though, and they have gone back into school, well ahead of where they 'should' be.

On your own you will probably have a different attitude to safety - having done a circuit both as a couple and with kids - your perspective changes hugely with kids in the equation. the first circuit we had a VHF and nav lights.....and that was it. This time we had a lot more gear, Satphone, SSB, liferaft, AIS, Radar, three watertight bulkheads etc etc, and a big boat that would look after us in a blow, and had the legs to make rapid passages (24 days across on the 33 footer, but 17 for the crossing this time), just simple things like the guardrails are much higher on bigger boats for example, and they are no harder to maneuver or sail (possibly much easier) - i can easily single hand ours.

By the way on the way back last time, my other half was getting quite large with first child by the Azores (do watch the quantity of rum you consume - as it can have all sorts of consequences!) so i sailed the boat single handed back to the UK - Pantaenius had no problem insuring me for no additional premium. This time many insurers would not insure the boat with just the two parents and two children on board.....but Pantaenius - ever enlightened with common sense - simply stated that they thought it was great to have the two kids on board, as we would be less inclined to take risk - how right they were - and they covered us for the trip with no problem at all. Though that may have something to do with our previous history with them.

There are a lot of big cheap boats out there, as bigger can be harder to dispose of later on, but if you buy wise and cheap, you can sell cheap too. There is definitely a higher turnover in smaller boats though

I would also council against doing the ARC - but pm me about this otherwise it'll start all kind of ructions!

Finally I would definitely try and work without any deadlines whatsoever - set your expectations low - and ignore all advice on where is good/bad - make up your own mind when you get there....make your own decisions and live by your own interpretations of weather etc.

Happy to answer any queries.....

 

[JackIron]

Heres a vid of the boat in the T&C's by the way - poor camera but still gets the juices going....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSP5CfZpa0c

 

[contessaman]

I really like both of these:

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/198...13/Fairlie,-Largs/United-Kingdom#.VFObezSsWEw

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1984/Bowman-Rival-2362331/Lelystad/Netherlands#.VFObIjSsWEw

if the family were coming, they would be right on budget leaving 25% for upgrades and maintenance.

however, if they dont come (likely?) and the house doesn't get rented out then im probably looking at a total budget of 40-45K max and that includes upgrades etc. Might get a nich 39 or a rival 38 within that. But my gut feeling is they might be a bit draggy and not so close winded so would make a meal of the 1200 mile slog to windward....

what's worse though? 90% of the route will be downwind. So the fin keeled sloop that can slice its way to windward will probably be a pain in the backside off the wind and will burn out a dozen autopilots.

I guess the bottom line is that all boats are a a compromise, so as long as I find something drawn by a respected architect, its well found and I equip it suitably then I just go for it and make it work...

 

[contessaman]

JackIron - an inspiring post - many thanks!!

I'm going to continue to work on the wife, I really want to do this WITH the family. I intend to charter in the med next year so if that goes well it might go some way to winning her favour!!!

 

[contessaman]

Heres a vid of the boat in the T&C's by the way - poor camera but still gets the juices going....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSP5CfZpa0c

ok. seriously jealous now!!! like your vid of dolphins too. did you have scuba gear at all or just snorkelling?

 

[jonic]

We left in 2002 with no kids for "a year or two", heading for the Caribbean.

Eight years later we came back with two kids in tow! (They are ours we didn't find them or buy them!)

It was brilliant.

They were home schooled during the trip with boat kids from all over the world and have slotted straight in to UK school.

They make friends very easily, have excellent academic grades and one of them this afternoon won player of the week at a Southampton FC foundation half term soccer school.

During the trip they met all three of the Apollo 11 Astronauts, watched a Space Shuttle take off whilst anchored off Cape Canaveral, swam with Dolphins, Sharks (baby ones) and Eagle Rays, ate food from all over the world, learnt to swim like fishes, had whales sleeping alongside the boat, mixed with every race and creed, learnt new languages, saw more sunsets than most adults will in a lifetime and most importantly learnt that there are many ways to live this life.

You might like SWMBO's book. You can read a free chapter here http://www.sailawaybook.com/

I sell blue water boats now so feel free to call if you want some friendly advice.

Go for it! I was 35.

 

[contessaman]

Thanks John, my wife's quite a book worm I might throw that one in the christmas stocking!

Thats some good stock you have in your brokerage too.

My heart would choose the sweden yachts 41 because it looks so pretty like a swan ( and I love swans!)
My sensible side would go for the rival 41.

The interesting one is the wauquiez. If I did my trip half with the family, half without that's a useful size and has a purposeful underwater shape. I like it.

I'll be sure to check out your stock when the time comes.

Of course many have cruised far in the boat I presently have - beneteau evasion 32. its certainly a heavyweight and has taken me safely through some atrocious weather, not to mention easy to handle with a snug ketch rig. But for my journey I want more room below, a quicker performance under sail and whilst the pilothouse has been a blessing in these latitudes the windows could be a weak point on the ocean, moreover the whole point is to sail somewhere where its so warm clothes are a formality rather than a necessity, so I don't want a wheelhouse!!

Its interesting that you offer bavarias on your list. I dont want this thread to turn into yet another bavaria argument for and against, but I'd be interested in hearing your opinion. And rather than the many armchair sailors who normally throw their opinions around, you've done the distance so i'd say that qualifies you to comment on their suitability for extended offshore work. I only say this because the bavaria ocean 38 / 40 models offer a lot of boat for the money and on the face of it appeal to me. But then I work out the D/L ratio and find them even lighter than the stripped 3/4 ton IOR racer I used to have. the 38 also comes in higher than 2 on the capsize screening formula. Its a pity because I like the look of them, the price and for once in my life it would be nice to have a yacht that's younger than me!

thanks again for your response its an inspiration to me. Im definitely going when im 38. In 2020 its going to happen!!

 

[BurnitBlue]

I know almost everyone crosses the pond from the canaries or cape verdes. I want to do something a bit different. I'd push south to the cape verdes, but after enjoying a months diving there, I want to cross the equator and sail south to ascension island, before making the short Atlantic crossing to recife, then north to re-gain the traditional Atlantic route in the caribbean.

The trouble is ( i have been planning this for some years!) looking at the planning charts. the leg to ascension, wont have favourable winds for long. first the doldrums, then a reliable 20 knot headwind all the way!! the currents will be on the beam so will slightly hinder too. I'm absolutley not going anywhere near africa. I'll need a good supply of fuel to motor through the calms but then a boat that sails well to windward for the long slog against the wind to ascension. the rhumb line is 1200nm, sailing to windward that could double. The boat will then need to sit well at anchor for a month or so at ascension.

so I need a 39 foot long keeler that morphs into a princess motor cruiser to cross the equator then turns into a J/109 for the beat to ascension, then turns back into a long keeler for the rest of the journey.....

If only transformers made boats....

It will be an epic cruise though. UK- La Coruna - Madeira - Canaries - Cape verdes - Ascension - Recife - Caribbean - Bahamas - Florida - Carolinas - Bermuda - Azores - UK.

They are all places I have either been with work or travelled to on diving holidays. But to take them in under sail and dive the sites along the way... ...well, its something I have to do before I die.

That's one heck of a long Atlantic circuit. Have you considered circumnavigating via Panama and South Africa? It will take in all the destinations you list and take not much longer than a year. Down wind most (if not all the way).

I believe TCM who wrote to you earlier circumnavigated in one year (same time frame as an Atlantic circuit with no up-wind 2000 mile slog). Think about it.

 

[contessaman]

That's one heck of a long Atlantic circuit. Have you considered circumnavigating via Panama and South Africa? It will take in all the destinations you list and take not much longer than a year. Down wind most (if not all the way).

I believe TCM who wrote to you earlier circumnavigated in one year (same time frame as an Atlantic circuit with no up-wind 2000 mile slog). Think about it.

Yes the thought had occured to me. And what you are saying makes perfect sense. then I could take in St helena as well. But there would then be so many other places Id want to stop and explore/Dive in the pacific I'd end up taking 5 years or more = divorce. Definitely want to circumnavigate when I retire properly at retirement age, but first time round just want to do the atlantic circuit. I know ascension is a hell of a long way, the wrong way and out of the way and to most people just a rock covered in aerials but I have spent a lot of time there over the years with the military so to me its its like a home from home. The diving is amazing and I have had days where I have caught dinner on the last dive, walked out of the surf with it, barbecued it on the beach, had some beers, laid still in the sand and watched the turtles come ashore and lay their eggs in the moonlight then sleep on the beach under a billion stars. Often when driving the dive RIBs I'd see a rugged bluewater yacht moored of Georgetown and thought, one day that's going to be me. In a way, that long passage with the wind on the nose, to get there - well its a challenge and a fulfilment in its own right. It makes no sense but its something I have to do all the same.

Yup. I'm bonkers.

 

[Tranona]

Its interesting that you offer bavarias on your list. I dont want this thread to turn into yet another bavaria argument for and against, but I'd be interested in hearing your opinion. And rather than the many armchair sailors who normally throw their opinions around, you've done the distance so i'd say that qualifies you to comment on their suitability for extended offshore work. I only say this because the bavaria ocean 38 / 40 models offer a lot of boat for the money and on the face of it appeal to me. But then I work out the D/L ratio and find them even lighter than the stripped 3/4 ton IOR racer I used to have. the 38 also comes in higher than 2 on the capsize screening formula. Its a pity because I like the look of them, the price and for once in my life it would be nice to have a yacht that's younger than me!

I expect John will get back to you with his views, but as the owner of one of the boats on his books (the 37) I might offer my comments. My boat would not be on my list for what you want to do. It is perfect for what I bought it for and that is floating around the Med and going through the French canals. However many people have used other models, particularly the 36, 38 and 42 of similar age for long distance cruising.

The 38 and 40 Ocean, although visually very similar, particularly inside, are completely different boats and would be on my list, particularly if I was looking at Moodys and Westerlys of the same era. Think you will find the stats are very similar to a Moody 376 and when new that was the market they were aimed at. Contemporary reports were very complimentary and many boats were sold, particularly to German and Scandinavian customers for long distance cruising. If you look at those for sale on Yachtworld you will find many have been cruised long distance successfully compared with the normal Bavaria diet of charter and coastal cruising. I am only selling my boat because I am no longer able to go cruising, but if I was, I would be replacing it with an Ocean 38 - if I could find a good one in as good condition as my current boat.

That is a challenge you are going to face when you start seriously looking. People rarely sell really good boats of this type because by their nature they are likely to be well used, but often for sale because the owners are giving up or can't face the expenditure needed to keep them up. OK if the price is right and you don't mind the on going fixing, but if you have a limited time overall for sailing you want a boat that just works.

 

[contessaman]

I expect John will get back to you with his views, but as the owner of one of the boats on his books (the 37) I might offer my comments. My boat would not be on my list for what you want to do. It is perfect for what I bought it for and that is floating around the Med and going through the French canals. However many people have used other models, particularly the 36, 38 and 42 of similar age for long distance cruising.

The 38 and 40 Ocean, although visually very similar, particularly inside, are completely different boats and would be on my list, particularly if I was looking at Moodys and Westerlys of the same era. Think you will find the stats are very similar to a Moody 376 and when new that was the market they were aimed at. Contemporary reports were very complimentary and many boats were sold, particularly to German and Scandinavian customers for long distance cruising. If you look at those for sale on Yachtworld you will find many have been cruised long distance successfully compared with the normal Bavaria diet of charter and coastal cruising. I am only selling my boat because I am no longer able to go cruising, but if I was, I would be replacing it with an Ocean 38 - if I could find a good one in as good condition as my current boat.

That is a challenge you are going to face when you start seriously looking. People rarely sell really good boats of this type because by their nature they are likely to be well used, but often for sale because the owners are giving up or can't face the expenditure needed to keep them up. OK if the price is right and you don't mind the on going fixing, but if you have a limited time overall for sailing you want a boat that just works.

I had looked at the moody 376 and 419 (or 41 as some call it). Both okay but a bit on the light side. My dad has a smaller bill dixon moody which is a fab boat for coastal cruising, sometimes it amazes me with its performance but it does slam a bit too much in a seaway. That said, I haven't sailed the bigger moodys. You're right in as much as a comparison of the weights etc puts the Bav Ocean range similar. The interior of the Bav Oceans are a lot more attractive but the one thing that speaks volumes to me is the lack of a suitable sea berth on the Bavaria whereas the moody has a pilot berth in the passageway to the aft cabin.

I don't buy into this 'bavarias are badly made' chat and I have heard a respectable surveyor say they are among the most osmotic resistant hulls he's seen, but I do think they are designed more for the med than what I have in mind.

Finally, I make no pretences at being a naval architect, but I have got a reasonable understanding of physics and it bothers me that the ocean 38 does not pass the capsize screening formula and comes out well over 2. In other words, its far too beamy for its weight. Interestingly the 38 has a D/L ratio in the low 200's which places it similar to a moody. The ocean 40 on the other hand, comes out as a lightweight racer about 170, yet because its beam is more modest, she just about scrapes in under 2 and passes the capsize screening formula. What RCD cat did the 38 get and I wonder how they work that out?


I cant quite see the difference that you are eluding to between normal (aft cockpit) bavarias and the ocean range though? certainly the 40 uses the standard hull with a different deck moulding, is slightly heavier as a result but has no more ballast.
I'd be surprised if the 38 had a unique hull compared to the equivalent aft cockpit model.

It almost annoys me: I want the Bav ocean models to be better boats. I really like the look of them and they pack a lot in down below. They are so popularly priced it leaves plenty in the budget for new rigging, gensets, watermakers, etc etc.
But they are just too light for what I want. Of course it must be remembered that they are no lighter than equivalent bennys or Jenneaus.


If money were no object Id get a swan, but the prices are frankly ridiculous. to spend £90k on a 36 year old boat that will then doubtless need new rigging and a host of other kit. Its prohibitive.

Thats why the older Grand Soleils appeal to me. The 42 is german frers jr designed just like the equivalent swan only its half the price.

If I could persuade family to come a northwind 47 would be another on my list.... room for a washing machine too...