Choice of boat for Bluewater

[Gerry]

If money were no object Id get a swan, but the prices are frankly ridiculous. to spend £90k on a 36 year old boat that will then doubtless need new rigging and a host of other kit. Its prohibitive.

One problem I could forsee with a Swan would be draught, far too deep for many anchorages that you will probably want to visit on your trip. The great advantage of our boat (Bowman 40) is it only draws 1.5m, means we can get into many places that other boats find impossible.....

Hope you get your wife interested in the plan-it will be so much more fun if she and the kids come along.

 

[contessaman]

If money were no object Id get a swan, but the prices are frankly ridiculous. to spend £90k on a 36 year old boat that will then doubtless need new rigging and a host of other kit. Its prohibitive.

One problem I could forsee with a Swan would be draught, far too deep for many anchorages that you will probably want to visit on your trip. The great advantage of our boat (Bowman 40) is it only draws 1.5m, means we can get into many places that other boats find impossible.....

Hope you get your wife interested in the plan-it will be so much more fun if she and the kids come along.

agreed. That's why I especially liked that F&C 44 ketch I put a link to earlier (plus I personally think its one of the nicest looking yachts ever). She's a centreboarder. There was one on with boatshed for £69k that recently sold, presumably for a bit less than that. The one I put a link to is a bit overpriced at £79K I think, I have checked and the standing rigging is nearly 20 years old. Re-rigging a 44 foot ketch is no joke and cant come cheap. If she was priced realistically given what needs doing I'd seriously consider buying her. Sail her as she is for now and replace the rigging and upgrade the kit over the next 4 years. it would spread the cost too.

 

[Tranona]

I cant quite see the difference that you are eluding to between normal (aft cockpit) bavarias and the ocean range though? certainly the 40 uses the standard hull with a different deck moulding, is slightly heavier as a result but has no more ballast.
I'd be surprised if the 38 had a unique hull compared to the equivalent aft cockpit model.

The 38 Ocean is a different hull from the aft cockpit models. Slightly shorter and a tad wider, deeper body, partial skeg hung rudder, greater displacement, more ballast, longer chord keel, higher ballast ratio (39%). Not sure what formula you are using for your capsize screening, but would expect the AVS to be higher than the aft cockpit models. Can't say for certain because Bavaria were always coy about publishing this data, but all their boats meet Category A - although that is of course a minimum standard.

It is very confusing trying to sort out what is what in Bavaria designs at the time as they changed models frequently and although they look similar superficially they can be very different. For example my 37 is a slightly stretched 35 from earlier years and is a completely different boat from both the concurrent 38 and the replacement 36. Just as an aside the earlier (pre J&J era) designs were again very different - much heavier displacement and positioned somewhere between Moodys and HRs in price.

My point in making the comparison with Moody and Westerly is that they have been used successfully for your type of use by many UK based cruisers - primarily because they were the boats easily available to UK buyers. If you were a German at the same time looking for such a boat then the Bavaria would probably have been your choice!

You are right about build quality. Bavarias are very simply built compared with some boats so easy to work on and most of the parts are from mainstream manufacturers so easy to source repairs and replacements.

Sounds like I am doing a sales job! - but I do think those two Ocean models are very underrated in the UK perhaps because of the very short time they were on the market here - but they did sell about 50 boats here in the 2 years they were on the market, and that was before they enjoyed the later price advantage.

 

[GrahamM376]

I had looked at the moody 376 and 419 (or 41 as some call it). Both okay but a bit on the light side.

I don't know what you mean by "a bit on the light side", I would have thought more in the medium range. The 376 was 7.25 tons when new, ours with gear on board is around 9 tons. Here's what the surveyor had to say last winter about ours -

a cruising design from the board of Bill Dixon. She is of fin and skeg hull form and of moderate displacement, with a double spreader sloop rig. This has proved to be a popular class of yacht, and with her SA/D (sail area/displacement ratio) of 16.22 and an almost 40% ballast ratio is very suitable for blue water use. Although the design predates the RCD (Recreational Craft Directive) requirements she should properly be compared with designs in RCD Category ‘A’ Ocean.

Never having sailed a Bavaria Ocean, I can't comment on pros/cons between them.

 

[contessaman]

I don't know what you mean by "a bit on the light side",

I mean displacement length ratio. Not actual weight. I.e. the ratio of LWL vs displacement. So you could have two 37 footers both weighing say 8 tons. The modern beamy design with a long LWL will be at the lighter end of the spectrum. An older design will be much narrower and much shorter at the LWL so really is a much smaller boat. This would be a heavy displacement boat even though they both 'weigh' the same.

Im not trying to argue with you all and if you guys out there are doing the sailing I intend to in moodys and bavarias and getting on fine thats exactly what I need to hear.

I was just under the impression that a heavy displacement boat (by my definition above) typically with a long keel, will look after its crew regardless of their actions. A light displacement boat is by no means less seaworthy (look what they do with beneteau figaros, they weigh nothing !! ) but require the continuous efforts and energy of its crew to keep it sailling fast and in control. Having owned a lightweight racer and a heavy long keeler thats certainly consistent with my findings in uk waters.

Equally under conditions encountered 99% of the time the heavy displacement long keeler is a slow boat.

If the moody 376 or 41 is up to what I want then thats great. they are popularly priced, well built, don't look bad and I particularly like a few features. the engine room, the seagoing berth in the passage way and I really like the large cockpit locker which would be ideal for me to store a dive compressor and equipment.

Back to Tranona I meant this capsize screening formula:

CSF = Beam / (Displacement/64.2)1/3

I noticed like you that the 38 ocean has a partial skeg which is a good feature. So it has its own unique hull form? thats interesting. Would you rate it better than the 40 then? looks like the 40 had exactly the same ballast (same keel casting?) as the ocean 38. And the 40 does use the hull of the normal aft cockpit model. Was the 38 the proper creation then and the 40 made on the cheap using an existing hull and keel casting with just a new deck moulding.

Again, Im not putting these boats down I really like the look of them. But the 40 coming out at around 170 something on the disp/length does concern me that they aren't suitable for what I want...

 

[Tranona]

The 40 Ocean does not "fit" with any of the aft cockpit models at the time other than the 42. It is a much bigger boat than the 38 Ocean with LOA of 41' and a LWL 4' longer according to some data I have seen. (There is often a discrepancy in dimensions depending on the source and year!). Displacement is obviously higher, but ballast ratio lower.

Don't think it sold as well as the 38 and there are usually more of the latter on the market, but most not in the UK. Like many Bavarias there is a choice of keel, shallow or deep, but both the same weight, and many had in mast reefing which might have a bearing on choice!

 

[contessaman]

The 40 Ocean does not "fit" with any of the aft cockpit models at the time other than the 42. It is a much bigger boat than the 38 Ocean with LOA of 41' and a LWL 4' longer according to some data I have seen. (There is often a discrepancy in dimensions depending on the source and year!). Displacement is obviously higher, but ballast ratio lower.

Don't think it sold as well as the 38 and there are usually more of the latter on the market, but most not in the UK. Like many Bavarias there is a choice of keel, shallow or deep, but both the same weight, and many had in mast reefing which might have a bearing on choice!

well, been to see a few moodys. I must admit, I can see why something like that bav ocean 38 attracts a lot of people. Nothing wrong with the moodys in particular, but considering the top dollar price being asked for what are 25-30 year old boats - they are in pretty hanging condition and whilst they were surely better made than the bav when new, they would need a lot more money spending on them to return them to good condition. crusty keel bolts, tired engines and pitted and corroded leaking windows seemed to be a common theme. Id almost rather start with a sound bavaria and upgrade all the deck hardware to a higher spec.

Tranona you now have me interested. I may well go full circle and end up back with an old heavy weight but for now I have ordered the Yachting monthly 6 page review of the ocean 38 form 1998.

As an aside for anyone considering ordering copies of reviews, they charge an astonishing £6.95 for a photocopy. However if you note the year and month of the magazine there's a website called magazine exchange that sell old copies of magazines for £1.45. So you get the whole magazine to read and its colour. I got the YM review of the ocean 40 and a yachting world review of that early 90s frers Grand soleil 42 I like too.

thanks again for all the input everyone. there's no right or wrong answer and I value all of our contributions.

 

[Phoenix of Hamble]

As an aside for anyone considering ordering copies of reviews, they charge an astonishing £6.95 for a photocopy. However if you note the year and month of the magazine there's a website called magazine exchange that sell old copies of magazines for £1.45. So you get the whole magazine to read and its colour. I got the YM review of the ocean 40 and a yachting world review of that early 90s frers Grand soleil 42 I like too.

Neat tip... thanks!.... i've often thought that the review article pricing is bonkers... i'd buy a few articles if they were a quid or two and sent to me immediately as a pdf... but no way i'm buying an article for £7.

 

[Tranona]

Its a good review - I still have it from the time when I was buying my new boat in 2000. Would have been my choice if I could have afforded to buy one outright and have persuaded my wife to go long distance cruising. As it happened we got seduced by the Ionian and my wife enjoyed that laid back style of cruising so we bought the 37 through a charter deal with a view to perhaps upgrading when the deal finished. However circumstances changed and we kept the 37 which has been an excellent boat. We also looked at Moodys having chartered one as well as Bavarias. They were younger then, but I was surprised at how much work some of them needed to get them up to a similar standard to my Bavaria. 10 years on it must be even worse, particularly given the ambitious asking prices! I am sure there are good ones around, just that owners of good ones are not sellers.

 

[contessaman]

As far as I can see almost all of the ocean 38s have been been privately owned not chartered too so they are in good order and possibly less likely to have suffered unreported groundings etc.

Theres only one in the uk for sale down in falmouth but i'm going to try and go see it before christmas.

I was thinking of putting a post on the PBO forum on here ref the magazines and trying to make it a sticky but then I realized that its this website - ybw - that sell the copies of the reports! dont think they'll take too kindly to me showing how to do them out of business. Not since I publicly offered to burn the world CMap charts on a disk and post it to somebody will I have got myself in to such trouble......

somebody has to be the bad guy so everyone else can point the finger and feel good about themselves........

 

[Tranona]

Yes, not a suitable boat for charter in the big markets at that time. Centre cockpit and too expensive. My boat with more berths (very important!) was 30% cheaper.

 

[doug748]

agreed. That's why I especially liked that F&C 44 ketch I put a link to earlier (plus I personally think its one of the nicest looking yachts ever). She's a centreboarder. There was one on with boatshed for £69k that recently sold, presumably for a bit less than that. The one I put a link to is a bit overpriced at £79K I think, I have checked and the standing rigging is nearly 20 years old. Re-rigging a 44 foot ketch is no joke and cant come cheap. If she was priced realistically given what needs doing I'd seriously consider buying her. Sail her as she is for now and replace the rigging and upgrade the kit over the next 4 years. it would spread the cost too.

I know nothing.

That Frers ketch is a beauty though, I enjoyed looking at that one.

I guess you are not unfamiliar with the performance envelope, bearing in mind your present boat, and you are familiar with the advantages of the rig. A boat to love and keep, it would stand out in any company; if you could stomach the above budget cost and effort.

Spending other people's money by proxy is one of my best pastimes, but perhaps you should have a look at it?

Shoal draft is a wonderful thing to have in many parts of the Caribbean and transforms your options in places like the Bahamas.

Would the centerboard be noisy, does anyone know?

 

[Gryphon2]

We are currently in South Africa aboard our Beneteau 423 5 years into our circumnavigation. The boat has been perfect for live aboard life. So far we have been pleased with our decision to go for a more modern lightweight. We have far more light winds than strong ones and avoid going to windward as far as poss. A heavier boat would be perhaps more comfortable in dodgy conditions, but you would also be out in them longer. We are also glad we went for a relatively new boat as we have had far fewer problems than many other older boats. Our mass produced boat has had fewer problems than some quality boats like I Packet, Rustler and a Malo that had such serious rudder problems it had to be abandonned! If you need more inspiration to confirm your plans are good, see our blog on the mailasail site under Gryphon.
Chris

 

[Skylark]

We are currently in South Africa aboard our Beneteau 423 5 years into our circumnavigation. The boat has been perfect for live aboard life. So far we have been pleased with our decision to go for a more modern lightweight.

We are also glad we went for a relatively new boat as we have had far fewer problems than many other older boats. Our mass produced boat has had fewer problems than some quality boats.......
Chris

Thanks for posting this, Chris. I found it very inspiring. I bought a new AWB 41 last year. Just need the courage to throw in the towel at work! Not much longer, hopefully.

 

[chrisb]

I'm 35000k and 5 years into my circumnavigation . Nothing wrong with the AWB. There are plenty of them out here doing it including the infamous Bavaria . 41 ft suits me: plenty of room and not so heavy that I can't singlehand (transpacific for example). Avoid steel unless you can handle a big one . Too heavy and you need too much sail to make them go-this may be contentious .For me it has been an advantage to be able to sail to windward Fast passage making under sail for me is important and this excludes most of the older heavy boats . Suggest you read peoples blogs- I did and got a lot of valuable information from them . Start with mailasail or sailblogs . good luck.

 

[Sybarite]

The interesting one is the wauquiez

FWIW Wauquiez hulls are reinforced with kwaron (used for bullet proof vests)

The Jeanneau Sun Fizz, a great sailing hull designed by Philippe Briand is reinforced with Kevlar as from 1985. The same would apply to the Peterson designed Sun Legende 41 which replaced the Sun Fizz in 1986.

Strong boats and great sailing performance. You could pick up a good one for under £50k.

 

[Sybarite]

Hi All,

I'm an experienced sailor but UK only. In around 5 years time my present employment will come to an end, I will be 38 years old and I intend to take about 2 years completing an extended atlantic circuit - before starting a new career. At some stage I will sell our 32 foot Beneteau and buy something suitable for this undertaking.

The main factor that will influence my choice of boat size will be whether I can persuade my wife and daughters to accompany me on this cruise. If I could, life would be sweet. I'd have about £100k to spend on the 'new' boat and we'd have a healthy income from renting out our home and a modest pension I have. My gut feeling in this instance would be a vessel around 50' LOA.

On the other hand, my wife probably wont go for it, she doesn't like the idea of 'home schooling' the girls any more than she does spending 12 moths a year afloat. So option B is a smaller boat that I can singlehand. Plus a much reduced income if still running a house and family back home. Gut feeling, around 34' LOA.

Or....quite possibly the most likely and realistic option, will be me finding a boat that I can sail happily on my own, but is large enough that the family can join me for all the holidays. once again running things at home would leave me on a much smaller budget.. Gut feeling 38-40' LOA.

with that in mind, are mooring fees that would be encountered in say the canaries, cape verde islands and the Caribbean simply pro-rata on length? or do they jump up if your boat is over a certain length?

Are there any other considerations on choice of boat length?

I'm confident that I have an eye for choosing a good boat for offshore use in terms of an appropriate displacement/length ratio and keel configuration and rig etc. But what I don't have is the experience of anchoring/ mooring/ coming ashore for repairs etc etc in these countries.

I certainly don't want to be crammed into a small boat. And part of the reason for my cruise will be to do plenty of scuba diving along the way. this means dive gear and a compressor on board, not to mention a spare bunk or two for my various dive buddies to fly out and meet me for some diving once i'm on location.

any thoughts, experiences, lessons learned welcomed with thanks...

Reading through all this again, I believe you have more important decisions to take than the size or type of boat. Taking two years off while your wife retains the responsibility for managing the house and the daughters' education would put a strain on any marriage - and believe me, I speak from experience. If I were you, I would plan on a three year break and bring your family for a year on a series of short range cruises. In other words, ease them gently into the liveaboard style with the idea of them gradually accepting a longer break. Make sure that you choose only good weather for any crossings planned and that there are frequent breaks back home. Let them get the feel of the enjoyment that you experience. At the end of the first year you should have a clear view where your future lies.

If you launch into what proves an ordeal for them you will likely receive an ultimatum: the boat or us.

 

[Halcyon Yachts]

A wonderful plan - I am very jealous!

I would say a 40ft yacht would be perfect. You will get a better quality boat for your money and mooring fees won't be too extortionate, easy to handle on your own, yet there is plenty of room for guests and would be very comfortable for cruising.

Something like a Bowman 40:

Unfortunately Mardler is now sold, but something similar would be ideal.

Good luck!

Pete

 

[macd]

FWIW Wauquiez hulls are reinforced with kwaron (used for bullet proof vests)

What on earth is kwaron? Only reference I can find seems to be a place in Indonesia (but the page is in the local lingo so I could be wrong).

 

[saltylegs]

What on earth is kwaron? Only reference I can find seems to be a place in Indonesia (but the page is in the local lingo so I could be wrong).

Try Twaron :encouragement: