choice of boat -- and I know it's been done to death!

[Babylon]

Vegas are currently cheap as chips, and you can buy one and make it 'ocean-ready' for £15k. Here's one already re-engined for just £8k.

If I didn't already have a 27ft long-keeler (a Vancouver 27) for keeps, I'd buy that Albin Vega myself for £8 grand. The engine alone is only three years old and would cost nearly £4 grand new. Although it looks cosmetically tired, you could quickly bring all that up to a good shine with new bunk cushions (or covers). Doesn't look like its got many extras, so you have a blank canvas to fit what modern comms and nav equipment you desire.

The key thing is that you'd be starting out with a boat that, although a tad small for all three of you for extended periods, has a hull form that will be comfortable and secure in a seaway.

Get a proper survey organised, sort yourself out of a trot or swinging-mooring, and get sailing for very little real money. Once you've done two or three seasons, you can reappraise your needs and look at other boats if she's too small. You should certainly get all or most of your money back.

 

[webcraft]

If I didn't already have a 27ft long-keeler (a Vancouver 27) for keeps, I'd buy that Albin Vega myself for £8 grand. The engine alone is only three years old and would cost nearly £4 grand new. Although it looks cosmetically tired, you could quickly bring all that up to a good shine with new bunk cushions (or covers). Doesn't look like its got many extras, so you have a blank canvas to fit what modern comms and nav equipment you desire.

The key thing is that you'd be starting out with a boat that, although a tad small for all three of you for extended periods, has a hull form that will be comfortable and secure in a seaway.

Get a proper survey organised, sort yourself out of a trot or swinging-mooring, and get sailing for very little real money. Once you've done two or three seasons, you can reappraise your needs and look at other boats if she's too small. You should certainly get all or most of your money back.

All good advice except that for an 8k boat I wouldn't bother with a survey. Vegas never have osmosis and have very few known weak points (mast step and rudder basically) and Steve Birch of VAGB will give you some idea of what to look out for.

- W

 

[tom_sail]

All good advice except that for an 8k boat I wouldn't bother with a survey. Vegas never have osmosis and have very few known weak points (mast step and rudder basically) and Steve Birch of VAGB will give you some idea of what to look out for.

- W

Insurance?

 

[V1701]

Insurance?

Yachting 24, underwritten by Pantaenius (who have a very good rep.) insure older boats fully comp. without survey, e.g. £156 for my 1972 Vega. Basic Boat & a few others do inexpensive 3rd party insurance online (survey not requ'd for 3rd party)...

 

[adelinalee]

hello.. i'm a new in here..

 

[onesea]

There are lots of different makes that are safe and fast enough for cruising as well as having the accomodation you need. Your budget is large enough to provide you with a good choice. You need to ask yourself (and answer) two important questions before taking the plunge:-
1. what area are you going to keep your boat
2. what sort of sailing do you (and your family) intend to do

The second question is crucial. Everyone sets out with the intention of blue water cruising at some stage but relatively few of us actually do it. Also most overestimate the amount of sailing they are going to do. (Due to weather, tides, family commitments, work commitments etc. etc.)
There is no need to buy a boat now for ocean sailing in 10years time - boats can be sold and bought again to suit changing needs! Get something that will suit your needs now.
With your sort of budget, I would get something no older than 1990 as that will mean the equipment is unlikely to need extensive upgrades during your ownership and also will have as standard most of the creature comforts (heating, hot water) that we all crave. Also the engine will still have some life in it.

Agree with this and look at as many boats as possible, even ones you do not like! Your looking for ideas, there are 1000's out there and its a buyers market...

As for the 'pig in reverse' - well, exactly what percentage of your tike is spent motoring backwards? And - it is only a question of practice . . . after nine years I have nearly got the hang of it.

This advise is true but watch for little things like this, you might not go astern very often but if you NEED to it could be a BIG problem. At best it means the weather and tide are not good for leaving the berth, so you do not bother going sailing. At worst if you ave not had the 9 year as of practice

The same could be said for anchoring, sail handling equipment etc etc be careful of factors that you do not like that you cannot change.

Every boat is a compromise...

 

[jonic]

Vegas are great sea boats. We met a lovely couple in Barbados who had just crossed the Atlantic in theirs. The Moodys will give you more room and are also very capable.

 

[dedwards]

The big question that gets skirted around is "what does your wife want from a boat?" get that wrong and you're in for years of haggling to try to get her on it in the first place.

There is a big difference between the bavarias and the traditionally shapped boats and there are boats that fall in between. Check out production boats from 85-95 and you will find lots of accommodation without sacrificing too much sailing ability.

We currently have a 1985 gibsea 84 which is excellent except we are finding the berths are all a couple of inches too small to sleep on comfortably. SWMBO put up with it for a few years but now drags her heels to the point where I'm thinking I need a bigger boat or shorter SWMBO - we are both around the 6 foot mark, btw.

I expect you'll be looking at nothing smaller than 30 foot and be paying upwards of 20k. Also, the french brands are going to be favourites.

 

[loverobot]

Loads of advice thanks so much
Will go have a look at that Vega in the next couple of weeks - need to go have a look a few really inc the Halmatic et al suggested below
Also - what do Trapper 500's sail like? There is one for sale at the mo on apollo duck which looks quite tidy ?

My wife has just found out she is pregnant which chucks a spanner in the works and maybe means bigger inc budget lol!

Sailed a Bavaria 33 for my day skipper last week upto F6 in the channel islands (my first proper pilot to anchorage and out was through the Minkies lol ) and was surprised as to how well it sailed with a single reef in only. I guess a lot of the boats are fit for purpose but really want something that will handle heavy weather without too much drama

 

[caerolusmagnus]

I can see you are enjoying your sailing. And congrats on new arrival! I suggest you do what you are doing. Take the summer and sail on different boats and get the right balance of performance and accommodation for future requirements. Enjoy!

 

[Greenheart]

Since you're already accustomed to dinghies...

...have you considered a centreboarder? The first thing you'll find in a fixed-keel yacht, is how many places it can't take you to.

Loads of lovely, uncorrupted, uncommercialised inshore cruising grounds remain available to boats with lifting keels. And very inexpensive drying moorings become entirely possible.

Kids - and SWMBOs - enjoy the unregimented parking opportunities that extremely shallow draft permits. If they like to see some wildlife, there's always far more at beautiful, free, drying harbours like Newtown, than in any anodyne marina.

It's weird to me, that a coastline like the English Channel, where shallows are commonplace, is home to tens of thousands of deep-keel yachts whose progress and safety inshore is routinely challenged by their design...

...if you're only interested in getting offshore and overseas, fair enough. But thousands of people, perhaps with that dream in mind when they wrote the cheque, still spend many troubling hours every season, sweating as they hurry over sand-bars with inches to spare, then hunting for hours to find free deep water in harbour, or shelling out for premium deep berthing spots.

The historic lack of interest in swing-keel cruisers means there's a less bewildering selection to choose between, though rare centreboard editions featured in many popular designs. They're not generally performance models, but much more versatile as cruising machines.

 

[garvellachs]

A teenager nearly

I think a big factor in the OP's thinking should be accomodating the 11 year old. That "door on the rear berth" may be a big issue in fact. Designing it and the double berth behind it into a 30ft boat is what drives the compromises on design and performance which others talk about. Most 30ft boats offer a small but wholly acceptable living space for two. But when you factor in a possibly moody teenager-to-be, then having two proper cabins separate to but accessible from the main living area may become the primary need in port?

 

[Greenheart]

...when you factor in a possibly moody teenager-to-be...

Excellent point. Recommend a Westerly Chieftan, or similar...like a Centaur, but with completely separate aft cabin. It doesn't connect with the other accommodation at all, except via the cockpit. Blissful peace, for all aboard...

 

[agurney]

I think a big factor in the OP's thinking should be accomodating the 11 year old. That "door on the rear berth" may be a big issue in fact. Designing it and the double berth behind it into a 30ft boat is what drives the compromises on design and performance which others talk about. Most 30ft boats offer a small but wholly acceptable living space for two. But when you factor in a possibly moody teenager-to-be, then having two proper cabins separate to but accessible from the main living area may become the primary need in port?

We bought our Vega before the children arrived, and they're now in their twenties. No great problem with accommodating the teenage years, at least none that could be attributed to the boat.

 

[Tranona]

...have you considered a centreboarder? The first thing you'll find in a fixed-keel yacht, is how many places it can't take you to.

Loads of lovely, uncorrupted, uncommercialised inshore cruising grounds remain available to boats with lifting keels. And very inexpensive drying moorings become entirely possible.

Kids - and SWMBOs - enjoy the unregimented parking opportunities that extremely shallow draft permits. If they like to see some wildlife, there's always far more at beautiful, free, drying harbours like Newtown, than in any anodyne marina.

It's weird to me, that a coastline like the English Channel, where shallows are commonplace, is home to tens of thousands of deep-keel yachts whose progress and safety inshore is routinely challenged by their design...

...if you're only interested in getting offshore and overseas, fair enough. But thousands of people, perhaps with that dream in mind when they wrote the cheque, still spend many troubling hours every season, sweating as they hurry over sand-bars with inches to spare, then hunting for hours to find free deep water in harbour, or shelling out for premium deep berthing spots.

The historic lack of interest in swing-keel cruisers means there's a less bewildering selection to choose between, though rare centreboard editions featured in many popular designs. They're not generally performance models, but much more versatile as cruising machines.

Ah Dan! There you go again, getting carried away. Note the OP is sailing in a part of the world where draft is not really a constraint and he is more inclined towards something that handles heavy weather (again not unconnected with where he plans to sail).

You are right about increased possibilities in many parts of the world with shallow draft. However that has always been the case, and the low level of take up of shallow draft boats in the 30+ft sector suggests that folks are not that attracted - or rather the downsides of variable draft boats outweigh the upsides. Many builders regularly try to tempt potential buyers with the option of lifting keels on crusing boats, but rarely are they successful in terms of numbers sold. The few that are successful (Southerly, Ovni and Feeling spring to mind) achieve success by being very different, not just in the keel department. Whereas when the biggies such as Beneteau and Jenneau (and in earlier days Westerly and Sadler) try to capture a more mainstream market they are much less successful.

 

[loverobot]

Funny you mention feeling boats -saw a few down in st Malo and Granville and they looked more streamlined thaN many others I saw - are they in general going to sail as well as say a Sadler or will the latter be more sea kindly?
Is there a decent book about this sort of stuff because I guess here are many variables that determine this one way or the other

 

[Tranona]

Well, it is a massive subject where although there is plenty of theory about how you design desirable characteristics in a boat and what they might be, the reality is that for "normal" coastal type family cruising there is a huge range of different designs that can be used successfuly. 30 or 40 years ago, heavy displacement, high ballast ratios, long(ish) keels were deemed sensible. Nowadays just about nobody builds that type of boat anymore, but of course there are still people who cling to that model.

Personally I think the emphasis on heavy weather performance is overrated, unless you see your sailing as a battle against the elements and you want to be able to sail in all weathers. Generally not what family cruisers do, particularly if they have small children. Usually the proportion of time spent sailing in heavy weather is tiny, and usually avoided. So you find that people look for other things in a boat as a priority, knowing that in reality they will give up before the boat does.

Just look around at what people achieve in a wide variety of boats, and despite what some might say many people do plenty of cruising in "modern" boats, valuing their advantages in easy handling, spacious accommodation, good motoring etc as well as their ability to get them to their destination with minimal fuss.

Take a walk down the pontoons in marinas in what one might term the more challenging sailing areas and you will see all sorts of boats, most of which will have happy owners.

So, you cannot go far wrong with most popular mainstream boats. Buy one that feels comfortable to you, does not need hours of time and loads of money, get out sailing. You will learn a lot which will inform you about what your next boat should be - your first boat will almost certainly not be your last.

 

[Greenheart]

For his or her sake, leave the cat ashore.

 

[doug748]

How about a Contessa 28, alas this one is a long way from you:

http://marinedirectory.ybw.com/boat/new/boat_details1.jsp?id=49081

I know very little about them but they did get a glowing review in one of the yachty papers a while back. They are sporty, so might suit your dinghy background and roomy within.
The Petter on this one may well be due for replacement.

 

[rob2]

I used to sail occasionally on a Trapper 500 and they go rather better than you might expect! Always handled well in choppy conditions and big seas and winds, but could never actually sail herself on a beat. It turned out that may have been due to the bent rudder stock that gave her a totally unbalanced spade rudder! I think they're a little short on headroom.

I now sail a Weston 8500 (27ft9in), a fin and skeg design of similar era and fairly similar handling chracteristics. I love her, but the bunks are a little short for six-footers. www.varne.co.uk

In general older designs, particularly long-keel boats, will offer greater directional stability which makes short-handed sailing with a pregnant wife and teenage crew somewhat less fraught. Long keels will however prove more difficult in close quarters handling situations, having a mind of their own in reverse.

Can you and your daughter survive a week in a tent? If so, then an older design may prove suitable as you can usually close off the forepeak for her at night but you'll be living in each others' pockets during the day. Things I find with internal layout is whether two peole can pass each other in the saloon without one having to sit out of the way and how often the crew bashes their heads on bulkheads, etc. (doesn't affect my 5'7", but all my friends seem to be giants).

A Westerly Centaur will give you enough space and one of their 31ft range even more so with safe handling. Sadlers are lovely (I lust after a 34) and sail well. Although the OP is a dinghy sailor, he is likely to spend a fair amount of time effectively single-handed on passage so a tweakable fractional rig may be too much to handle alone and would definately need all controls brought back to the cockpit. Similarly, although a hanked foresail performs that bit better a furling gear is worth two crew when you need to use it as is single line reefing led back to the cockpit. A fast boat with all the racing gear is great for a full crew or just a few hours blast, but cruising en famille can double the workload and needs to be altogether calmer.

Rob.