CAUTION when buying from a broker

[Glynny]

Just visited a boat which was for sale by B*@tshed Scotland that was described as "One owner boat and has been taken care of. She has been sailed extensively. She looks lovely and could do with a bit of TLC below. Ready to sail away"

Prior to making the 850 mile return journey, we communicated with the broker on several occasions to verify the description of the vessel on the broker's website. All was good - this was a professionally built boat, well fitted out and updated and had been sailed by the owner's family. Great.

Off we go......We met another broker (someone who worked for another totally unrelated brokerage service)
We went down below to view the boat and almost fell apart, laughing.
The boat was in need of a total re-fit (the electronics were recycled from Noah's Ark, the standing rigging was original, the parafin heater would never work due to parts missing because the ageing owner had taken them home and forgotten where she had put them, all the windows were leaking - a lot (my wife's trousers were sodden when she got up off the saloon settee), the list goes on and on).

We phoned the B*@tshed broker who admitted that this vessel had been on his brokerage for some 2 years and that he had not viewed it himself in that time.

All in all, a total waste of our time and money (2 days out of our life that could have been better spent looking at a properly described boat.

The moral is.....Buyer Beware - Do not put your trust with any broker.

I contacted the BMF who were about as much use a chocolate fire-guard.


Sorry about my rants but, having ran a business myself, I always considered that the customer was king and should be respected.
Respect certainly seems in short supply these days from so-called professionals and experts. Its about time we gave them the shoulder.

I am still looking for a good Fisher 30 if you know anyone who has one for sale. Don't mind a bit of graft.

 

[pappaecho]

Does not surprise me in the least. Bought Pepsi in Plymouth 2 years ago with broker indiating that the boat had had "osmosis" treatment in 2006. Paid for a survey and luckily it was the same survey as the 2005 survey where osmosis and pitting as clearly described.
Nothing has been done at all. Broker blamed the owner and vice versa.

I threatened to sue for costs and got the boat for a knockdown price. It turned out to be pitting due to poor layup and not osmosis, and for once the ball bounced in my favour.

 

[Glynny]

Glad to hear that you came out on top with this one - as you say, this is certainly rare.
A friend who works for the local Trading Standards Office has suggested that they have more complaints, pro rata, with boat brokers than anything else. Tells you something, doesn't it?

These people should be made to be more accountable for their actions and not, just there to take your 8% or whatever it is. Boating would be far more pleasurable if this happened.

 

[Caer Urfa]

The moral is.....Buyer Beware - Do not put your trust with any broker.

I contacted the BMF who were about as much use a chocolate fire-guard.

I am still looking for a good Fisher 30 if you know anyone who has one for sale. Don't mind a bit of graft.

Hi Glyn

Sounds a familier story as I do 'Pre Buying Inspection Visits' for some new buyers of Colvic Watsons and some so called Yacht brokers don't even know what a Colvic Watson looks like even when they are looking at one! (they usually turn out to be a Colvic 23 or IP23 or a Colvic Atlanta).

It's a pity as there are some good brokers (not many) and I would have expected better from Boatshed.

Also do not go by photographs (you find out some were taken years before), my advice is do your homework so you will generally know what to expect for the boats age and many clues as to her condition can be seen on photographs 'IF' you know what your looking for.

I do not inspect Fishers but know them very well and they are a fine Motorsailer, But check for signs of Osmosis and learn their market prices for good and poor condition, Sorry a 1981 Fisher 30 was for sale up here for six months and went for below £30k, neeeded cosmetic work and navigation updates but otherwise a sound boat.

From my experiance like Colvic Watsons finding a Fisher will not be a problem, finding a good one is the clever bit!

Good Luck

Mike

 

[Sneaky Pete]

Brokers

Similar experience with Euroyachts at Troon on the Clyde. Looking at a Moody336 (Katrina) photos show the boat to look good, prior to the broker taking me onboard he explained it was needing some minor work carried out no more than the ordinary DIY enthusiast could handle. Coach roof de-laminated around mast ply de-laminated, keel bolts thick with rust, seacocks seized, chain plates leaking, windows leaking and on it went thousands needing spent. This was not a little maintenance this was complete neglect. They have the boat on at £44,995 little do they know the price dropped elsewhere a few months ago by £5000. Shows their attention to detail.

 

[corinthmistral]

Had the same experience 2 years ago when i looked at a Maxi 35 in Wales. Having been assured by the broker that the teak decks were "in good overall condition" and having specifically asked if they had been heavily sanded or scrubbed and said I would not travel to view it if they had, having driven a 500 mile round trip I was disappointed to see immediately I walked on board row after of row of shiny screw heads where the decks had been sanded away. Such a waste of time and money (my time and my travel costs!) - do people really think you ask these questions for no reason? All in all it was a very disappointing experience with that broker. And I see the boat is still for sale, 2 years on.

 

[ShaunG]

There no better from the sellers side, I have my golden shamrock on with a broker, communication is dreadful, no information from them on progress or interest,no advice on price etc..The boat genuinely is in great condition and accurately described with photos taken in the last few months. They csnt even pick up the typos on their spec document......can someone remind me why we pay/use them

 

[Spyro]

It would have been advisable before a 850 mile round trip to try and find someone local via the forum to have a quick look. It's an enjoyable task looking at boats if you ask me.

 

[Seajet]

There are good brokers too, as in any profession; I spent 5 ( qualified ) years plumbing after engineering was largely knobbled by Thatcher, but grew fed up with the 'plumbers from hell' type TV programmes, people expected me to be a cowboy before I even turned up !

No mention of the 'Customers From Hell' where I drove 2 hours to get there late on a Friday night to find water pouring through the ceiling; they were about to kiss me for turning up, then once I fixed the snag refused to pay, guessing - correctly - that I wouldn't take them to court.

That was the worst but there were other similar examples.

In the end the stress got me badly so I bailed out to what I feel I should have been doing from the word go, writing & a bit of photography.

Back to boats, I have come across one broker who seems to collect run down 'project' boats on the East Coast, when I enquired about a boat there on behalf of a novice, the idiot hadn't even bothered to take an inventory, and my question 'has she at least got an anchor ?' was met with "dunno, but anyway we sell secondhand anchors " !!!

I feel for Jonic who by all accounts does a good job at brokerage.

 

[chinita]

It would have been advisable before a 850 mile round trip to try and find someone local via the forum to have a quick look. It's an enjoyable task looking at boats if you ask me.

Good idea. I will volunteer for anything on the Algarve.

 

[jonic]

Well these people think I do

I feel sorry for those on the end of the stories we are reading here, and I set my brokerage up after being on the end of similar treatment when I was a buyer.

But I have to stress there are also some very good, highly skilled and professional brokers too.

The other side of the coin is that there are buyers and sellers who behave in a way that beggars belief.

I have driven 100's of miles, spent money on fuel and hotels and had people simply not show up for the appointment. No call, no apology.

I have had sellers lie through their teeth and commit contract fraud, and buyers who behave like children and who think dishonesty is fine.

We've even seen it on this forum with people asking how they can break contracts with buyers or sellers or cut the broker out without him knowing -after they have all fulfilled their side of the contract.

I'll diligently return every phone call and every email but it doesn't happen in reverse from some.

I now have a saying when I come across them which is "I am no longer surprised but continue to be disappointed".

Luckily because of the area I specialize in, a lot of my clients are fellow cruisers and have that generosity of spirit and honesty that goes with the territory.

I was going to put a sign over the door.

I sell nice boats, for nice people, to nice people. If you don't fit the criteria, don't apply.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

Well these people think I do

I feel sorry for those on the end of the stories we are reading here, and I set my brokerage up after being on the end of similar treatment when I was a buyer.

But I have to stress there are also some very good, highly skilled and professional brokers too.

The other side of the coin is that there are buyers and sellers who behave in a way that beggars belief.

I have driven 100's of miles, spent money on fuel and hotels and had people simply not show up for the appointment. No call, no apology.

I have had sellers lie through their teeth and commit contract fraud, and buyers who behave like children and who think dishonesty is fine.

We've even seen it on this forum with people asking how they can break contracts with buyers or sellers or cut the broker out without him knowing -after they have all fulfilled their side of the contract.

I'll diligently return every phone call and every email but it doesn't happen in reverse from some.

I now have a saying when I come across them which is "I am no longer surprised but continue to be disappointed".

Luckily because of the area I specialize in, a lot of my clients are fellow cruisers and have that generosity of spirit and honesty that goes with the territory.

I was going to put a sign over the door.

I sell nice boats, for nice people, to nice people. If you don't fit the criteria, don't apply.

I agree totally Jonic and my few dealings with Yacht Brokers have been mostly very positive but it's very hard work telling who the good ones are without actually engaging with them. Even references like yours (obviously genuine in your case!!!) can be quickly knocked up and are very difficult to verify. The problem is there doesn't seem to be an effective Broker's association that deals with the rogues (and I mean bad service, not just unethical or criminal behaviour). It's not just a Yacht Broker problem - it seems endemic in almost every profession - the good ones are increasingly hard to find without taking a risk first.

 

[jonic]

This is why reputation and word of mouth is so important, we live in a society that thinks little of taking others for a ride, from the top down,

 

[BobPrell]

The other side of the coin is that there are buyers and sellers who behave in a way that beggars belief.

I helped research a TV program about used car dealers. Some said "Yeah, and you should hear the fibs people tell about their trade-in vehicle".

I was trading a car myself and a dealer said "Tell me what's wrong with your trade-in - and be honest now" with such good humour that I did, and it was for the best, we both went away happy. I have tried to work on that basis ever since.

the good ones are increasingly hard to find without taking a risk first.

and yet you pick up the "How to go cruising" books and they say "Place yourself in the hands of a reputable broker". Easy advice to write and read, bloody difficult to follow.

 

[jonic]

and yet you pick up the "How to go cruising" books and they say "Place yourself in the hands of a reputable broker". Easy advice to write and read, bloody difficult to follow.

You'll be alright with me then, my wife wrote the book

 

[BAtoo]

All to familiar story. I think every time I have been looking for a boat I have been misled by someone over the description of the intended boats. Worst was a trip to France in 1999 to view a Jeanneau Sunshine 38 - IIRR - the osmosis was so bad my then 14 yr old daughter spotted it as we got out of the car !! But we did find the eventual purchase by chance on the way home..
Previous trip to N Wales was as disappointing with a sorry-looking Westerly - but we visited friends en-route

 

[jordanbasset]

When we bought our boat we made appointments to see a number of different boats with different brokers over two weekends. Had an overnight stop on each occasion so we did not waste too much time travelling. Although we were dissapointed with the condition of a couple of boats most were as described. Also found most of the brokers were very helpful, with the one exception treating us as if we were time wasters.
Saw a total of 20 plus boats and found ours. It was a actually one of the first we looked at but still carried on with the plan as we wanted to make sure it did stand up to comparison with others.

 

[Glynny]

I agree totally Jonic and my few dealings with Yacht Brokers have been mostly very positive but it's very hard work telling who the good ones are without actually engaging with them. Even references like yours (obviously genuine in your case!!!) can be quickly knocked up and are very difficult to verify. The problem is there doesn't seem to be an effective Broker's association that deals with the rogues (and I mean bad service, not just unethical or criminal behaviour). It's not just a Yacht Broker problem - it seems endemic in almost every profession - the good ones are increasingly hard to find without taking a risk first.

Thanks guys, I totally agree with Grumpy and Jonic, more should be done to weedle out the "Bad Boys" of Brokerage services. The so-called Broker's Association which is part of the British Marine Federation is only in existence to protect the integrity of it's members who are, yes, you've guessed it, Brokers, amongst others.
My dealings with the Broker's Association about my complaint, "mis-description" of this vessel in Scotland were a joke. It became very obvious from several email communications (I was not allowed to make contact with them on the phone) that they were only going to act for the good of their own member. In the end, the actual "mis-description" aspect was brushed under the carpet in favour of blaming me for continuing to communicate with 2 separate brokers. There was no mention that the originating Broker was nowhere to be seen when we finally landed in Tarbert for the viewing and we were met by another totally different Broker unbeknowing to us.

I have just researched the aspect of what it takes to become a Broker. Guess what, you don't need any qualifications, registrations or licences to act for anyone as their Broker. FACT. Of course, there are training courses which are, apparently, voluntary.

I am not saying that all Brokers are bad but, it would appear that it is long overdue that a proper and independent overseeing professional body is put into place to safeguard the customer and not just the Broker.

Anyone interested??

Thanks for all the advise, guys.

 

[Glynny]

It would have been advisable before a 850 mile round trip to try and find someone local via the forum to have a quick look. It's an enjoyable task looking at boats if you ask me.

Thanks for this suggestion but, even if you could find someone to offer their services, would this guarantee that the Broker is telling the truth and being forthright with his/her description?

Just a thought.....

 

[Tranona]

The so-called Broker's Association which is part of the British Marine Federation is only in existence to protect the integrity of it's members who are, yes, you've guessed it, Brokers, amongst others.


I have just researched the aspect of what it takes to become a Broker. Guess what, you don't need any qualifications, registrations or licences to act for anyone as their Broker. FACT. Of course, there are training courses which are, apparently, voluntary.

Your first statement is, I think incorrect. It is not part of the British Marine Federation, although it may well be a member, as are literally hundreds of others in the marine business.

They are very clear about their requirements for membership, which require much more than is legally necessary to operate - which is just about zero. Anybody can set up as a broker, it is not a "reserved" occupation. So like many other similar occupations any representative or accrediting body has to be voluntary and self governing.

This is not to excuse either bad performance of the broker, nor the response from the organisation as we don't know the whole story, only your side, but it helps at least to start with correct facts when commenting.