Purple Velvet
Active Member
There is definitely betterment of course. When I do a job, it is to my standards rather than a quick bodge job. I didn't really intend to be selling but it is somewhat forced upon me by circumstances.
Boat valuations and action available.
- Thread starter Purple Velvet
- Start date
There is definitely betterment of course. When I do a job, it is to my standards rather than a quick bodge job. I didn't really intend to be selling but it is somewhat forced upon me by circumstances.
Purple Velvet
Active Member
Hence my initial post as to what the difference really would be. I guessed at £5k but I could be wildly off the mark of course.
Dellquay13
Well-Known Member
I’ll go back to my original comment, the difference in value of a boat of 26 or 34 years, in the light of the 2026 V26 HiLine with the same engine at £59,995 brand new list price.
I don’t think the 34year old boat would be only 75% of the value of the 26 year old boat, in exactly the same condition. Dropping 25% in 8 years on a boat already well down the depreciation curve (it’s already had more than 3 times that period to lose its premium value) doesn’t seem a likely taper. A quarter of its value in less than the last quarter of its long life.
I don’t think there would have been much more than a cosmetic evolution of this model over that period to have made the newer radically more valuable since the current model is still a traditional British river cruiser design largely out of fashion with mass market boat builders.
Viking - 26 Widebeam Golden Crown Edition For Sale in Leicestershire | David Mawby LTD |
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ashtead
Well-Known Member
I am no expert on boat values however clearly the valuation of boats is an art and not a science and hence there is a range of values for any date/vessel. I just wonder if the retrospective value of this vessel at the time of sale fell outside the range . Also was the year actually material in the decision to buy? There also appears to be a degree of negligence here on part of buyer but is the allegation that the seller altered title documents /original bill of sale from Viking (if this is manufacture) from say 1992 to 2000 . What evidence of this fraud exists? My question really would be does the seller have clean hands or was there a deliberate attempt to change the date? Clearly the other concern is whether the seller is worth the battle even if a court finds in favour of. The claimant. All for a a£5k loss ? Loss -it might be with a range of values a high value for a 1992 boat is not vastly different to a low value for a 2000 vessel? ‘I am wondering if any sensible values would want to become involved in this matter ? What comparables exist of other sales at time ?
Tranona
Well-Known Member
The misrepresentation you are claiming depends entirely on the contract which covers the transaction. The vessel does not seem to be sold with a survey - it would be very unusual if a contract included that. The fact that you need a survey for insurance is your problem, nothing to do with the seller. You can only win in the court if you have a sound well evidenced case, and from what you have said you do not stand a chance. It was your responsibility to ensure that the vessel is as described by the seller. It does not matter that there were undeclared faults. The normal contract assumes that your offer is based on the information given by the seller and is subject to survey. If the survey shows up faults that were not declared then you have the right to withdraw or renegotiate. If the written contract followed the normal format, your opportunity to reject the boat or negotiate a reduction in price based on the difference in age of the boat and undeclared faults has long gone as you have accepted the boat. Even if there was no written contract, the court would base its assessment on what the contract would look like based on what is considered normal for this type of transaction.
If you had a proper survey the surveyor would have looked for the HIN and engine serial number to confirm the date of build. You should have done this in your survey. Very basic as is the requirement to ensure that there is documentary evidence that the seller has title to sell by way of evidence of previous changes of ownership and transfer of title to him. he would also have found some or all the defects and advised you in his report of what they were, likely cost of remedial work and how they would affect the price you had agreed. You took on the responsibility for doing this all yourself and are now having to deal with the consequences.
You have come here for advice and possible courses of action and the advice has been consistent. Based on the information you have given you do not have a case, even for misrepresentation. The advert does not form part of the contract. You would need to show that the seller did things that hid the real age of the boat like changing the HIN number, falsifying historic documents related to the boat plus incorrectly describing the boat on the contract. Even with this you would have to collect evidence that AT THE TIME of the transaction there was a significant difference in value between the boat you bought and a later model in the same condition. What the value of the boat is now is completely irrelevant and getting a professional estimate of value now will not help you.
If you have more information that might change the collective view here then share it. Your evidence has to be good enough to convince the court to get a court order and even then you may well have difficulty in enforcement with a private seller. Suspect you will also have difficulty in persuading a broker to take it on with the lack of provenance and doubts about the age of the boat.
With reference to post#40, as someone who has been through the open heart surgery I would suggest you forget all about this boat problem. Wait until you have recovered then look at the situation again. Presumably you bought the boat to use rather than do up and sell. In that case its market value is irrelevant if it does the job. If you bought it to do up and sell hopefully at a profit you seem to have made a mistake and have to live with the consequences.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
This apolloduck.co.uk/boats/viking-cruisers/26-widebeam-hi-line gives an idea of values which do not seem to be directly related to age. If the OP paid £20k it is right in the ballpark. Difficult to see how such a simple boat could have £10k worth of undeclared defects.
Anyway as I suggested values today are irrelevant. The transaction took place a year ago and what he has done to the boat is his choice and asking prices are less than what he has spent irrespective of the age of the boat.
Sticky Fingers
Well-Known Member
If you don’t have the paper trail of sales from new, you don’t have demonstrable proof of title. In other words, the boat may not actually belong to you because the person who sold it to you may have no proof of title, which means that he may be unable to establish whether he owns it… and so on.
Whilst there’s no evidence of this problem in this particular case, this isn’t entirely unknown. But this does lead to a new problem for you, given that you are currently listing your boat for sale.
A new purchaser of your boat may very reasonably expect to find a paper trail of ownership going back years, even if not to the original purchaser, to demonstrate that you do have in fact the right to sell this boat as your own legitimate property.
As the UK does not have a mandatory registry of ownership, the only way to be comfortable that the product that you are purchasing is in fact as described, is to undertake the due diligence that has been described elsewhere in this thread, to satisfy yourself to a reasonably robust extent that the boat in question is in fact what is being described, and that the vendor has the right to sell the boat to you, and that there is no finance interest in the vessel.
Seems to me that you have done none of this, which at this stage is regrettable to say the least.
Buying an old vessel of modest value without a survey is not uncommon, but that does mean that the purchaser takes on the task of due diligence, and so inherits any risk that may arise from that. Relying on the BSS may give you some comfort as to the condition of the on board systems, but will prove nothing regarding provenance, age, finance etc.
Purple Velvet
Active Member
Quite, but how can this be addressed if the seller has gone QRT? Will the broker refuse to take it on with such a short paper trail?
Sticky Fingers
Well-Known Member
I wouldn’t touch it without a paper trail, if I was the broker. But I’m not, maybe there are firms specialising in boats like this.
dunedin
Well-Known Member
Based upon the advert link in post #46, and the strong language used in the initial and subsequent posts, it does seem very hypocritical to advertise as a 2000 boat (in the main advert data, even with the caveat). Surely if the OP believes it is actually 1992, that is what should be in the advert.
The list of improvements looks to be nice improvements for the current owners (then) plans - but few look to be essential repairs for defects. And, I am no lawyer, but I don’t believe there is any onus on a private seller of an old boat to list every defect - only to answer honestly when asked (in writing). Normal practice is to get a professional survey unless sufficiently expert to assess in detail personally.
Best wishes to the OP for the operation. Hopefully will go well.
Personal call, but having done all that work I might be tempted to store the boat ashore under cover for a year and hope to be using it in a year’s time.
The list of improvements looks to be nice improvements for the current owners (then) plans - but few look to be essential repairs for defects. And, I am no lawyer, but I don’t believe there is any onus on a private seller of an old boat to list every defect - only to answer honestly when asked (in writing). Normal practice is to get a professional survey unless sufficiently expert to assess in detail personally.
Best wishes to the OP for the operation. Hopefully will go well.
Personal call, but having done all that work I might be tempted to store the boat ashore under cover for a year and hope to be using it in a year’s time.
Purple Velvet
Active Member
I had changed it but not pressed the save changes button, which I have now done. Many thanks for pointing it out.
Sticky Fingers
Well-Known Member
Still says 2000,after refresh…?
Purple Velvet
Active Member
I will go and look again. However there is a message saying that edits have to be approved before they go live.
potentillaCO32
Well-Known Member
Being green to the boating business..... didn't you think a survey might be even more helpful for a greenhorn?
How can you do your own 'survey' if you are new to boating???
Purple Velvet
Active Member
It is a fibreglass vehicle with an engine. It may not have wheels, but it is otherwise exactly what I have been restoring for the last number of decades. My experience with car and home surveyors is that they were being paid to tell me what was perfectly obvious, so I didn't give it a thought.
Because I know fibreglass, from long experience so I would have identified any concerning defects with the hull. I found nothing of any consequence and would trust it on any waterway. There are a few defects that I intend to address, 2 star cracks and a chip, which are bread and butter to me.
potentillaCO32
Well-Known Member
Well that worked well....
Purple Velvet
Active Member
Why criticise? I have no issue with the vessel itself. I was aware of its condition before doing the deal, it is only the date of manufacture which is the fly in the ointment.
dunedin
Well-Known Member
For a boat like that why fret over the age, as probably now irrelevant.
Following your upgrades, which from photos look to be done to a good standard, you are probably able to argue that the boat is now in better condition than most 15 year old boats.
Unlike a more complex sailing yacht, wooden vessel or boat with an expensive diesel engine, there is not much age related on a boat like that.
Still might be worth keeping as a target / goal to use post recovery. But if not the build date is probably largely irrelevant now to value.
ylop
Well-Known Member
Car pre sales inspections / checks typically do things like check the vehicle is not financed, hasn’t been written off, the VIN number matches the log book etc to stop you buying something which isn’t what you thought it was.
Similarly when buying a house between the surveyor and conveyancer they are making sure that you are buying what you think you are buying with no ugly surprises.
It’s easy to dismiss the value of surveyors if they never stop you buying a pig in a poke. And the more formally controlled a market is, the less likely it is they find anything worrying because everyone knows those checks are going to happen. Because boats are a bit less formally managed this is all the more reason for checks, especially if there is no broker involved to try and keep things clean.
But you missed something you now think is key - the age of that hull - usually shown with a HIN moulded in somewhere and if it was as young as you thought a CE plate.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
This is all very confusing. You claimed originally that there were undeclared defects, but looking through the list of things you have done to the boat it alll seems to be upgrades and replacements rather than repairing defects. You have made the classic mistake of spending far too much on upgrades, many of which do not add value on such as simple boat. OK if you intend keeping the boat for a long time and get the value to you. You cannot expect to recoup these costs selling a year later - in a falling market.
The issue over the date of build is almost irrelevant. If it was indeed a 2000 boat it would have physical confirmation in the form of the HIN permanently moulded in the hull. Absolutely no excuse for failing to pick this up before you bought the boat. This is no different from buying a car - you check the plate on the car to see if it agrees with the information given you. Anyway based on the small selection of boats of the same model for sale currently there seems to be little change in the basic spec and age does not seem to matter in relation to price as a newer one is for sale at a lower price than yours. Values of boats tend to reflect condition and equipment rather than age, particularly simple boats like this where specs are largely unchanged over the years.
With regards to the survey for insurance, this is quite normal to get all risks cover as the insurer wants to know 3 things. First that you legally own the boat, second that it is seaworthy and third that the insured value is reasonable in relation to the current market price. Not unreasonable that they require this information from an independent third party. However you may well find an insurer that will accept self declaration, although as an inexperienced owner buying a fairly high value boat without a survey and with questionable provenance maybe not. Getting a survey on a boat is a bit like having a survey when you buy a house. It may not tell you much that you don't already know (although in this case it would), but is there to satisfy your lender that the house is sound and value greater than the loan. So if you want to insure your £25k you may have no alternative but the spend the £500 and get a survey.
Other threads that may be of interest
