Cars vs boats

[lustyd]

I never realised how wasteful the car industry was until I owned a boat but I'm now starting to think its bizarre the way cars a treated.
When a car reaches about 10 years old people start to talk to you as if it's on it's way out and not worth fixing things. When a boat reaches 10 years old it's time for a first service on some components.
When the engine on a boat becomes unreliable and difficult to get spares for, we fit a new engine. There is no discussion of scrapping the boat. With a car, when the engine reaches 100000 miles people start suggesting you swap in the car.
When a boat looks shabby inside, we replace the lining, reupholster the cushions etc. on a car we scrap it because the job is too difficult.

I realise that part of this is the cost difference, but my 20 footer is worth considerably less than most family cars and probably was when new yet there is no suggestion to scrap that. I think part of the problem is that cars are built in such a way as to make replacement of parts difficult. Not necessarily on purpose but as a result of cheaper manufacture.

Does anyone else find themselves keeping cars longer and trying to maintain them more as a result of boat ownership?

 

[BarryH]

In the scheme of things, cars are your fastest depreciating asset. Its the world we live in. Cars are relativly cheap when new compared to a good few years ago. Its also "snob factor" when it comes to registration plates.

I'm not that shallow. My last van that I purchased for a work vehicle did 500,000 mile before it became pointless to repair. The engine was good, the gearbox was a tad worn, although it still drove nicely. It was the garage I use that said "mate, if this was a horse it would have been shot a few years ago".

I don't do messy/heavy work with my vans and they get treated as a car on the whole. I was tempted to put another box in it as the body was in great condition with no rust digs or dents, but the cost of the box, plus the availability, put the nail in the coffin for it. The van I replaced it with is no where near as well built......it s froggy Citreon, **** in my opinion, but economical!

Boats don't depreciate anywhere near as fast as a car. I've sold past boats for almost as much as I paid for them and in some cases for more. Also I think cars are seen as a "tool" today rather than a luxury. Its how people percieve things. You say "I've got a car" and people don't bat an eyelid, say you have a boat and there is nearly always a "really" with and underlying thought of "that must cost a bit"

To me a car/van is a means to and end so I can afford the boat, which has cost more than thye cars/van I have at the m oment and the van is only 5 years old compared to the 30 years of the boat, but then thats crappy cheapo french cars for you........

 

[[2574]]

My difficulty is that I have no interest or desire to fettle the car. It gets washed in October and March and other than that it is a tool for consumption so when it needs refreshing the easiest thing to do is change it. The boat on the the other hand......I have been refitting for seven years now and have enjoyed the majority of that work.

 

[stav]

Buying cheap cars (£1800 most and £25 least but did 60000 miles in the £25 over two years) and keeping them going is how I have paid for my boating habit. Oh and buying cheap boats that need some fettling. Good job people do keep old boats going as there is not much else you can do with large lumps of very slowly degrading lumps of composite/thermoset plastic. Cars on the other hand can be fairly well recycled apart from some of the mixed plastics (I do not consider making plastic lumber as recycling). I seem to recall when at uni in the 80's the average car (golf?) had more energy used in its construction than it would use in 18yrs of motoring?

 

[westernman]

I seem to recall when at uni in the 80's the average car (golf?) had more energy used in its construction than it would use in 18yrs of motoring?

I heard that a solar panel uses more energy in its fabrication than it will generate over 20 years.

May all be codswallop of course.

 

[BarryH]

I heard that a solar panel uses more energy in its fabrication than it will generate over 20 years.

May all be codswallop of course.

Probably not, I'd say more than likely.......now if your talking energy/hydrocarbons to produce compared to energy saved, then the Toyota thing has got to rank as one of the highest.

 

[EuanMcKenzie]

I was DIY on cars before I got a yacht. working on a bopat engine is an extension to car maintenance to me.

not paying for significant depreciation on cars is what funds my boating. Also with older vehicles I can still fix / service myself to an extent.

Newer cars are getting harder to do this with so I find myself in a timewarp.

Helps to have a collection, I have an MGF, a merc ML (petrol), and a peugeot partner

MG is cheap as chips on limited mileage insurance, ML does less than 5k a year and is old enough to duck fully chelsea tractor tax, and the van is an economical multipurpose runabout.

Keeping the ML is a bit like keeping an old boat. Its great to travel in for Holidays and days out (and snow), and the annual fuel bills arn't that great if you don't motor too far each year.2/3 are fully depreciated! like a boat, its no reason to get rid.

I think if your inclined to get mechanical on your boat then you have probably already got history of it on cars.

 

[electrosys]

Does anyone else find themselves keeping cars longer and trying to maintain them more as a result of boat ownership?

Not exactly - but I'm no longer impressed with 'developments' in cars, due I'm sure, to being 'grounded' by the basics of a boat ... but it could also be an age thing.
Last car was 20 years old, current one is too. None of yer hydraulic tappets, or electric windows, or central locking ... or, perish the thought ... a computer. Very little to go wrong - which is exactly how I like 'em. Basically the same philosophy as with the boat - KISS principle, as it ain't too clever if things go wrong 'out there'.

I paid the same amount for this car as some people pay for a replacement electronic key thingy - and those keys are examples of madness if anything ever was.

 

[DownWest]

Same here. We run two cars, one an old tec diesel Espace and the other a petrol Twingo.
Both can be fixed with the skills I learned on Minis and other old cars from my yoof. The Twingo is currently in the shed with a blown gasket. Should be sorted tomorrow with some bits I saved from a previous one. Cost will be the oil and coolant (+sweat). If the engine gets rough(er) on the Espace, I can get another for a fraction of the cost of replacing it.
Money saved is much better used elsewhere.
Due to pressure, I am painting the Espace, but again, €200 of paint + time is not bad compared with the cost of a replacement. And I at least know it's condition, rather than buying a can of worms.
Friends with recent tec cars are getting scarey bills at fairly low milages.

 

[boguing]

I had a 1992 Citroen ZX, bought almost new in '93. (Ex-demo). Post divorce in 2003, I thought that I should ditch the other car and re-life the ZX. It was a comfortable car, cheap and not a bad drive.

I think that's the era to look at. It had a simple ECU, controlling the engine only. My plan was to get rid of it and replace it with either carburetors or an injection system with a competition ecu. The competition stuff was widely available because the engine was a bit generic.

I did the cost thing and reckoned about £1,000 to do the above and to replace every component that displayed 'not a new car' feel. Suspension bushes, gearbox linkages, cv joints etc etc..

Rust was limited to a bit on the battery tray and a spot emanating from under the windscreen rubber.

I really believe that it would have been good for another ten years, easily.

Trouble is that I discovered old Land Rovers, and finding that they don't actually cost me anything but fuel, tax and insurance. Buy a good one with a few defects cheaply, buy the bits and fit them myself, value of car goes up by about twice the price of bits. No payment for my labour, so that labour is the true cost to me.

Case study. 1977 88" bought for cost centre #1.

Desperate local seller pre-Christmas. Wanted £3,000. Took £1,200.

1. Shot dampers, brakes, propshaft joints, cam belt slipped.

2. Gearboxes (both) terrible.

Cost of bits for (1). £400.

Cost for bits (2). £100. (second hand boxes £50, bits to restore £50).

Fitted renewed gearboxes and bought parts to refurb originals. £120. Sold them for £800.

Net cost £1,020.

Possible value now is £2,500 min, poss £3,000. Won't be for sale for at least ten years, but it is now one of the best of it's age.

So. Yes. Buy a really cheap 'modern' and re-life it or go down the rather iffy 'classic' route.

Boats are different. We know that sheaves, ropes, winches and sails wear out, and that paint is a given too.

I'd suggest that the 'keep it or sell it' moment is when the engine goes wrong. And the fact that the boat is not really worth any more with a new one - which is stupid.

For example, sailed on a few CO32s with Bukh and Volvo engines. Double vision. Cookers threw grill pans into low orbit.

Two years ago - a Beta engined version. Had to 'phone another 32 owner mate and have a chat. Standing at the steps up, 'guess where I am?'.. 'standing at the galley of a 32, motoring at about six knots'. Didn't believe me at first.

In my view that simple mod doubled the value of the boat - lovely sailing thing but a terrible motor boat.

 

[webcraft]

Yes, of course it's all codswallop.

I heard that a solar panel uses more energy in its fabrication than it will generate over 20 years.

May all be codswallop of course.

A 2008 study by researchers from the Netherlands and the USA (Fthenakis, Kim and Alsema, 2008), analysed PV module production processes based on data from 2004-2006. They foundthat it took 250kWh of electricity to produce 1m2 of crystalline silicon PV panel. Under typical UK conditions, 1m2 of PV panel will produce around 100kWh electricity per year, so it will take around 2.5 years to "pay back" the energy cost of the panel.

PV panels have an expected life of least 25-30 years, so even under UK conditions a PV panel will, over its lifespan, produce many times more energy than was required to manufacture the panel.

Calculating carbon payback times introduces additional variables, especially the "carbon cost" of the electricity production replaced/avoided by the PV system. Carbon payback times are shorter in countries where electricity is primarily produced using coal power stations, and longer in countries where
grid electricity is already produced by low-carbon technologies. But generally payback times for carbon are similar to those for energy.

Of course, since 2008 PV panel manufacture has becoem a lot more efficient in terms of both energy input and emissions.

So yes, it's codswallop.

- W

 

[mountain]

I heard that a solar panel uses more energy in its fabrication than it will generate over 20 years.

May all be codswallop of course.

Only codswallop if you only account for the electricity used in the factory.

If, however, one factors in all the energy costs (such as raw material extraction and transportation to the factory, and, most significantly, the transportation energy used in getting the panel from China to its site here) then its true.

A solar panel uses more energy rock to roof than it will generate over 20 years.

Actually I'm a great fan of solar energy and have managed to take one of my properties in warmer climes totally "off grid" thanks to solar power.

 

[Greenheart]

Reverting to boats/cars, surely the contrasting ways in which roadworthiness/seaworthiness are measured, is relevant.

Whilst driving in France, I clipped a barely-visible concrete bridgehead (later painted so that it's now clearly visible from half a mile above, on Googlemaps!)...

...there was no visible damage, but the repair work required on steering/springs, would have cost much more than simply replacing the car. Can you imagine crunching your rudder in a berthing accident, such that the cost of repair makes it cheaper to scrap the boat?

I reckon cars' complexity, and the perilous pace at which they operate in necessarily close circles with other vehicles, and new cars' ever-greater standards of efficiency on the road, quickly make a vehicle costlier to maintain, than to replace...

...whereas elements of a yacht's design that signify acceptable seaworthiness are sturdier, less complex and less subject to detrimental wear. As has been said, sails, antifouling etc need replacing, but such refits aren't often vital for safe use.

Imagine a yachting MOT-test - how many elderly boats of questionable construction, might score badly in tests to determine structural rigidity - but they wouldn't be regarded as hazardous as a result...not at their low speed of use in moderate conditions.

Running a boat must be something like running a pre-tax/pre-safety standards car. Old cars without seatbelts, or using 1960s brake technology, may look shockingly sub-standard today - but thousands are still run, without having to conform...so, basic maintenance without oppressive test-standards is possible, and without the inevitable day coming when it'll be cheaper to ditch, than to make legally safe.

While maintaining a modern vehicle to high legal minimum standards is costly and gets increasingly so, and while new cars are quickly judged passé (injuring their owners' image, if they cared), the yacht - in reasonable condition - maintains much more stable value.

I can hardly believe the earlier remark, suggesting that a sailboat's defective engine is a principle reason to get rid of it - it reminds me of the absurd tale of a sailing yacht's crew who called the RNLI when the engine failed...

...I'd say the number of moving parts, required for progress by cars versus yachts, explains why most cars don't last as long.

 

[Searush]

My Merc is 30 years old & still going fine, but it's still 10 years younger than the boat.

 

[Greenheart]

Ah. Well, Mercs of that age have quite a reputation for longevity, don't they? Yours wouldn't be one of those favourites of the Lisbon taxi driver, would it? The very traditional equivalent of today's E-class, with an extra digit on the milometer to allow for over a million miles?

 

[dimdav]

I think it depends on the car. I've replaced the engines on my last 2 cars when things have gone pop and my current one, a 911, has its engine dropped about once every 18 months or so because whatever needs fixing is just not accessable. Thats not unusual for Porsches and the mechanics are reasonably quick (7.5hrs out and in). I've had the interior revamped when it started to look tired and it probably gets more attention than my wife. Its 10 years old so not that much depreciation left but the boat is 30 and still going strong with equal measures of love.

For me cars are for having noisy fun in at speed and boats for getting away from all that technology and noise. I have thought about selling the car to buy a bigger boat but that would ruin those perfect days when I've been out for a cracking sail in a F4-5 with clear skies and mid 20's temps. Then heading home with the roof down, flat 6 roaring and a massive cheesy grin on my face.

 

[Hambler Rambler]

Time to stop lurking, as am surprised noone has made more of the safety argument here!

One of the principle ways in which car development has been driven over the past twenty years is surely safety - be that crumple zones, airbags, ABS, better handling under severe turning and braking etc. It's essentially a bit like an arms race and by driving around at speed surrounded by highly superior vehicles in this respect one puts oneself at quite some risk by being in a 20yo car... it's a case of every man for himself!

Personally that was my main motivation to sell my 20 year old Polo which was in great condition and super reliable and cheap and spend over ten times as much to join the 21st century.

 

[Greenheart]

Such is life, in empty Scotland? I didn’t know it ever reaches the mid 20ºs up there!

Down here on the South Coast, if there are ever enough gaps in traffic to floor the loud pedal, there's a steely, unsleeping roadside outpost of government to capture an image of one's moment of fun.

I always prefer US motoring ideals of space and smooth ride. I like the apparent purity of Porsches, but not the hard ride...

...though it may mostly be down to driving style. My old dad always drives like he's in a tearing hurry, calling OAPs twenty years younger than himself "silly old fart". Sounds funny, but it's terrifying. I reckon that type of driving 'enthusiasm', shortens car life-spans, too!

 

[dimdav]

Such is life, in empty Scotland? I didn’t know it ever reaches the mid 20ºs up there!

Oh yes, normally once a year

I always prefer US motoring ideals of space and smooth ride. I like the apparent purity of Porsches, but not the hard ride...
QUOTE]
I know what you mean, its not fun with the current state of the roads and the potholes! Although weaving at speed does add to the excitement.

I dont know about anyone else but I have no faith in boat engines despite me going through more engines in a car. Might be a mental thing but if I'm out under power I spend the entire time listening for the slightest change in the engine note at which point I'm convinced that I'm at best 30 seconds away from catastrophic failure! its gets heightened on a calm sunny day and it only happens on my own boat!

 

[sighmoon]

IIRC, building a ford fiesta from spare parts would cost upwards of £1m. On the other hand, the cost of replacement parts for a boat aren't that much less to the manufacturer than they are to you, so the cost of normal wear and tear is unlikely to exceed the value of the boat.

THere's also the matter of progress - My totally uncool 1.6 vauxhall zafira is (they say) good for 109mph, and gets to 60 in 12 seconds, - so broadly comparable as a boy racer XR3 from the era my boat was built. Unlike the XR3 though, it has 7 seats, averages 37mpg, runs quietly, and my odds of walking away from a crash are orders of magnitude greater than a banger. It's better.