Can you tell off the top of your head...

[Portofino]

Deduct two from my total (there's no sea-cocks on the bilge pumps outlets!) But add one as I confess I've got a seacock on the exhaust. (Forgive me mentioning white flappy propulsion, but when sailing in rough seas, I've had water getting all the way back past the swan neck and past the water trap and back into the engine. One engine rebuild is quite enough...)

Yup my genny exhaust ( water n gas ) out is above the WL at the stern , not too high for the sake of splash noise .
Also the Aircon out .
That’s why they are seacocked to provide an option of closing in a rough sea to prevent potentially damaging backlflow
My genny is mounted low too way below the WL . .

 

[MapisM]

The 4 th - 5 % is the anchor locker on my boat but I realise it may be tiny on most increasing the 3rd living more .

Huh? Most if not all anchor lockers are entirely above the w/l, and I bet this is also true for yours.
That doesn't count as a w/t compartment, in my books...

 

[petem]

Porto,

When you say watertight compartments, how are they made watertight?

Is there a 'proper' watertight hatch in the cabin sole that seals these compartments (I'm having difficulty in envisaging how these would look/work)?

 

[MapisM]

Good question P, but the answer is no, of course.
What PF means is that there is a w/t bulkhead between the whole forward cabins section and the e/r.
Making a fully w/t bottom, with bilges accessible only through w/t hatches, is indeed feasible but brings the hull construction into a completely different league - and btw it's a nightmare in terms of practicality.
I've only seen that on some steel trawlers with structural tanks inside the double hull, w/t doors also inside the cabins area, self-righting... Proper battleships, well beyond the scope of pleasure boats as we commonly debate them.

 

[Portofino]

Porto,

When you say watertight compartments, how are they made watertight?

Is there a 'proper' watertight hatch in the cabin sole that seals these compartments (I'm having difficulty in envisaging how these would look/work)?

Bulkheads that go down to the hull and up to the deck .No doors or hatches connecting them .
They extend below the cabin soles .Each compartment is separate with its own B pump (s) + alarms

For things -like services that pass through them they either go out of the ceiling and over the bulkhead and drop down nextdoor or pass through a gland .
By gland I mean say a water pipe instead of drilling a hole and feeding it through in one piece and gobing up with sealant - if you wish .
There is a double male bolted and sealed “ gland “ in the Bulkhead ,the pipe is cut and clipped to the male end on one side of the BH and another pipe connected the same way on the other side .

So if there’s a breach and water pressure of say 1-2 M in said compartment, the gobed up sealant method may spring a leak so it’s not watertight really at 2m of water .head
Wires are interesting .they too do not run through .
Either up n over or say the Bow thruster cables ,there once again is not a hole with it threaded through.
Instead a large copper bolt through the bulk head ,double ended so each side is effectively a connect .

It’s an easy boat to do
The rear cabin (25%) is accessed from a deck hatch so no vertical door like Petes T34 connecting the saloon .
ER guess 35% is also access from the deck x2 .
Fwd living from a hatch and stairs .
I mentioned the anchor locker as it’s massive with a water tight bulkhead , just adds to the no of compartments
So 4 in all 3 bulk heads - Ok not gonna argue with MapishM over what the relevance of the 4 th is
They say a pic paints a 1000 words .
Two fwd are holding tight here for a cost effective recovery or it’s not quite liferaft time ?
Pic of rear cabin access
Pic of anchor locker - makes a great people smuggler
As I said the layout lends itself to effective water tight bulkheads -
Also all the light and extractor fan switches for the compartment s are in the ceiling so you can operate them ( think night ) while a compartment is say 2 m deep with water
https://imgur.com/gallery/ZLD8D

 

[MapisM]

I mentioned the anchor locker as it’s massive with a water tight bulkhead , just adds to the no of compartments
So 4 in all 3 bulk heads - Ok not gonna argue with MapishM over what the relevance of the 4 th is
They say a pic paints a 1000 words .
Two fwd are holding tight here for a cost effective recovery or it’s not quite liferaft time ?
Pic of rear cabin access
Pic of anchor locker - makes a great people smuggler
As I said the layout lends itself to effective water tight bulkheads -
https://imgur.com/gallery/ZLD8D

Indeed the 3rd pic in the webpage you linked is very effective, 'cause it shows the irrelevance of the anchor locker for flotation, being completely up in the air...!
Anyway, if we should include it, then I've got 4 bulkheads and 5 compartments, in the DP. :encouragement:

PS: Coming to think of it, make it 8 compartments. The 3 structural tanks are much more worth considering than the anchor locker!

PPS: I think you missed the point of petem question, btw.
As I understand, he was asking if you meant that the whole bottom under the floor of the cabins section(s) is watertight or not.
If that's what he meant, I already answered in my post #64 - otherwise, over to him for better explaining his doubt!

 

[vas]

anchor locker?
I'd be hard pressed to consider something with a hole on the top for the chain and a hole at the bottom for draining water (hence above w/l) as a watertight compartment anyhow!
Assuming the vessel is on the move, most of the volume of this thing is filled with nice heavy steel, defies all points surely.

V.

 

[Seastoke]

4 plus captain

 

[markc]

https://imgur.com/gallery/ZLD8D

Still a write off / total loss though?

 

[petem]

PPS: I think you missed the point of petem question, btw.
As I understand, he was asking if you meant that the whole bottom under the floor of the cabins section(s) is watertight or not.
If that's what he meant, I already answered in my post #64 - otherwise, over to him for better explaining his doubt!

MapisM, you got what I was asking. I'm afraid I don't believe watertight bulkheads are that big a deal (I have one separating the engine room and accommodation on my boat (the layout wouldn't lend itself to any more)). OK, so they may not be as well engineered or sealed as Porto's Itama but the deficiency but any minor leaks through fittings could be easily dealt with by the separate bilge pump in the 'good' compartment.

I suspect Porto only has an additional bulkhead due to his aft cabin being accessed from a deck hatch. I'm not convinced it's driven by RINA.

 

[Portofino]

Still a write off / total loss though?

But more survivable less chance of dying .

Oh I don,t know think cars - no CAT D in the boat world - it will be auctioned off and eventually pop up again -scuse the pun .
From an admin point of view sure ,but why care much about the ins Co,s business ptractice ?

Different outcome if over 3000M of water twixt SoF and Corsica .

Anyhow if the Life raft does not work or the erib at least one can still use the vhf on that and find food / drinks etc or if the start sharks turning up - and the LR has worked - hmm
They say stay with the reckage from a copter spot POV .

 

[Portofino]

MapisM, you got what I was asking. I'm afraid I don't believe watertight bulkheads are that big a deal (I have one separating the engine room and accommodation on my boat (the layout wouldn't lend itself to any more)). OK, so they may not be as well engineered or sealed as Porto's Itama but the deficiency but any minor leaks through fittings could be easily dealt with by the separate bilge pump in the 'good' compartment.

I suspect Porto only has an additional bulkhead due to his aft cabin being accessed from a deck hatch. I'm not convinced it's driven by RINA.

Never said it was P

“ also “ re read my post which I thought I explained as “well as “by the builder .
Not talking about a leak the solution is the same in a Canoe as a multi compartment- plug it - that bit you got is right .
I,am talking about severe water In guess from a front end smack into a bouy like that Pershing or a ripped out stern gear ( grounding - hit a submerged abject ) like that Itama .

I ,ll tell you now P if your T 34 ripped a leg off or punctured a belows twixt MSC and Baldricks it will sink .
It will not float bow high like that Itama - cos water will seep / flood forward past the various orifices in the bulkhead that separates the ER with the rest of the boat . I bet all the bilges are linked under the sole - so water will run Fwds .
Or if you ripped open the fwd living space on a reef it will sink like that Pershing as the ER would slowly flood from the holes I have mentioned.

You have say 25 % Er - 72 living space / 3 anchor Locker
I don,t think FL or SS or Prinnny are any different to that Pershing re ability not to sink if holed from an event @ either end
Living or stern gear ripped out .
https://imgur.com/a/MYpfh

 

[petem]

I ,ll tell you now P if your T 34 ripped a leg off or punctured a belows twixt MSC and Baldricks it will sink .
It will not float bow high like that Itama - cos water will seep / flood forward past the various orifices in the bulkhead that separates the ER with the rest of the boat . I bet all the bilges are linked under the sole - so water will run Fwds .
Or if you ripped open the fwd living space on a reef it will sink like that Pershing as the ER would slowly flood from the holes I have mentioned.

Porto, you really do need to stop making assumptions. The forward and aft bilges on my boat (and all Fairlines since god knows when) are separated by the vertical bulkhead that runs from the top to the absolute bottom of the engine compartment (i.e. the hull itself).

They're not connected and your idea that water sloshes around between them is complete bollox!

Itama aren't the only people in the world who understand that basics of building boats!

 

[Portofino]

Anyway, if we should include it, then I've got 4 bulkheads and 5 compartments, in the DP. :encouragement:

PS: Coming to think of it, make it 8 compartments. The 3 structural tanks are much more worth considering than the anchor locker!

Let’s forget the glassed in tanks in the bilge s - they may be full or ripped open , and what ever state in % vol regarding buoyancy- negligible If intact and empty .

Are your bulk heads proper water tight or just holes drilled and stuff passed through ?
Are the bilge spaces separate or connected so leaks run to the stern while planning ?

Where’s the alleged 4 th water tight bulk head
Rear cabin 1 Bulk head - ER machinery space - 2nd bulk head - living space - 3 rd Bulkhead anchor locker .

Where’s the 4 th ? Hull to deck no holes , hatches , vertical doors —— water tight so say a bathing platform has hatches that will bust open in the waves and drains that will fill - as an example of a seemingly floatation aid which is not really .
Just curious on the layout ? For a 4 th

 

[Portofino]

Double post sorry guys

 

[[2068]]

Is yours not shaft-driven?

It is not, it has DP-H egg whisks.
There is one seacock for the holding tank outlet.
Toilet gets flushed from the freshwater feed.

 

[Portofino]

Porto, you really do need to stop making assumptions. The forward and aft bilges on my boat (and all Fairlines since god knows when) are separated by the vertical bulkhead that runs from the top to the absolute bottom of the engine compartment (i.e. the hull itself).

They're not connected and your idea that water sloshes around between them is complete bollox!

Itama aren't the only people in the world who understand that basics of building boats!

Old Itama Pete not be confused with post 2004 Builds .

Pete the bulkhead that separates your ER from the fwd living will not be a true water tight in classification terms If such a definition exists or any other definition .Water will seep through ( Ok from not underneath )
There’s no point them going to the expense as I have explained depends on the layout .Not being critical and apologies if that comes across, but flood either compartment and the boat will sink .

Pete - exactly what classification if any have in the past or do currently Fairline adhere to in construction of there boats .
You see ( happy to be corrected if I,am wrong ) I think there s some obtuse stiff like the ability to inspect / access all hull areas .
FL until recently have as you know ,built using a two part hull seperating both parts by a foam grid or core .placing a linner or inner skin glued - means if the access and inspection rule is valid you can,t get to see the inside of the hull layup cos of the linner glued on the foam grid network .
So in the event of a whack say a bouy two parts may delaminate unseen and water seep or maybe that were never properly sealed anyhow leading to seepage .

How ever i understand they have moved away from that system with the Vrpack engineered new 63 GTO .
Interesting to know the reasoning ?
Don,t get me wrong Pete just saying it as I see it .
BtW that SS Porto35 I had would have sunk like your T34 if one of the compartments would have flooded .

 

[jfm]

15 for me.

 

[MapisM]

Let’s forget the glassed in tanks in the bilge s - they may be full or ripped open , and what ever state in % vol regarding buoyancy- negligible If intact and empty .

Are your bulk heads proper water tight or just holes drilled and stuff passed through ?
Are the bilge spaces separate or connected so leaks run to the stern while planning ?

Where’s the alleged 4 th water tight bulk head
Rear cabin 1 Bulk head - ER machinery space - 2nd bulk head - living space - 3 rd Bulkhead anchor locker .

Where’s the 4 th ? Hull to deck no holes , hatches , vertical doors —— water tight so say a bathing platform has hatches that will bust open in the waves and drains that will fill - as an example of a seemingly floatation aid which is not really .
Just curious on the layout ? For a 4 th

L, I'm not sure it's interesting to start a debate along the lines of "my boat is better than yours".
After all, as we all know, what really matters nowadays is the full beam cabin size, how large its windows are, and so forth.
And neither your nor my boat can compensate the lack of that with a better w/t compartments layout!

Anyhow, since you insist, are you ready to be overwhelmed? Let's start...
The w/t compartments on my DP are as follows, bow to stern:
- anchor locker (if you wish to consider it),
- bow+guests cabins area,
- crew area,
- engine room,
- stern lazarette (with P brackets and rudders placed in that compartment, separate from e/r)

On top of these "internal" areas, there's also a large compartment under the swim platform (Ferretti style), also with its own bilge pump.
I didn't count it before as a w/t compartment, but its volume is probably 5+ times larger than the anchor locker, and much more relevant in terms of flotation reserve due to its position.
Besides, I completely disagree on structural tanks being negligible. Sure, in terms of flotation they are neutral when full, but if the hull bottom is ripped open in the structural tanks area, the worst that can happen is that diesel is spilled in the sea, as opposed to sea water flooding the hull - i.e., the boat flotation would be completely unaffected.
And since the forward structural tank is for water, with a bit of luck the spill might be just of fresh water!
Overall, the volume of these tanks is almost 4 cubic meters, which puts the anchor locker in perspective, I reckon...

All bulkheads are structural, glassed all around, with zero holes anywhere - not even gland sealed.
In fact, any hoses etc. needing to go through the compartments use a rather peculiar (actually unique, afaik) solution of routing them inside the hull stringers.
Each of the above compartments has its own electric bilge pump, with the exception of the anchor locker which obviously doesn't have any and the engine room which has two.
These pumps are backed by a large diaphragm pump that can suck from each compartment through a selectable manifold, which can also be connected to the raw water pump of one of the engines (the other one can suck straight from the e/r).
If you're interested in more details, I recently explained the setup, together with its three-levels alarm system, in this post.


Now, back to your pic of the half-sunk Itama, on second thought I think it's a bit weird.
Do you know what happened exactly? And are you sure that the boat wasn't sitting on the bottom with her stern?
I am asking because judging from the pic I would guess that both the stern cabin and the e/r are flooded, and only the forward accommodation area is keeping the boat afloat - which is surprising.
Anyway, fwiw I agree with your post #71 in reply to markc. A floating wreck is definitely much better than a sunk one - Titanic springs to mind... :ambivalence:

 

[Bouba]

In France unsinkable boats are classified as insubmersible. The importance being that it isn’t necessary to have a life raft, as far as I’ve seen, most insubmersible are small foam filled boats along the lines of a Boston Whaler. They must be able to float full of water with at least the gunnels level with the sea. And I believe the engine still has to be able to work.
So is any of your boats with water tight compartments (and I hope everybody always closes all doors and hatches) classified as unsinkable and do you get privileges such as no life raft required