Can someone explain radar to me please...

[Sea Change]

Technophobe alert!
On our previous boat, we had a clunky old monochrome radar by Furuno. It had a green and black LED screen and you could adjust gain and range and, well, that was about it. Certainly better than nothing but I gather that modern options include all sorts of fancy features, some of which I'm probably not even aware of. Even having the radar overlaid on the same screen as charting and AIS info would be an enormous improvement.

The new boat has no plotter or MFD, so there's a fairly big upgrade to be made there. I've had enough of using phones for navigation.

Of course budget comes in to this. I'm not about to spend £5k on a bunch of new gear. I can find secondhand radomes for as little as $100 (I'm currently in the US) and even these look light years ahead of my old Furuno. But I don't really know what I'm looking at and I'll need to make sure that whatever I find can work with my chosen MFD.

I'm leaning towards an Axiom as my MFD, although I have misgivings about a system that relies entirely on a touchscreen. I'm possibly open to the idea of a more DIY route involving a rugged tablet. But I'm not very techie and don't want to go down a rabbit hole on this.

Any help or suggestions gratefully received!

 

[wonkywinch]

To minimise profanities during set up, you would be well advised to buy the same make of radar as the chart plotter.

And avoid the B&G 4G. Mine failed at around 6 years old and internet searches show this is a common issue.

 

[PaulRainbow]

To minimise profanities during set up, you would be well advised to buy the same make of radar as the chart plotter.

That's an absolute must, or it just won't work at all. It also has to be compatible, even with same makes, for instance you can't use older analogue radomes with newer digital MFDs

And avoid the B&G 4G. Mine failed at around 6 years old and internet searches show this is a common issue.

I avoid anything B&G, more problems than any other make, in my experience.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Technophobe alert!
On our previous boat, we had a clunky old monochrome radar by Furuno. It had a green and black LED screen and you could adjust gain and range and, well, that was about it. Certainly better than nothing but I gather that modern options include all sorts of fancy features, some of which I'm probably not even aware of. Even having the radar overlaid on the same screen as charting and AIS info would be an enormous improvement.

The new boat has no plotter or MFD, so there's a fairly big upgrade to be made there. I've had enough of using phones for navigation.

Of course budget comes in to this. I'm not about to spend £5k on a bunch of new gear. I can find secondhand radomes for as little as $100 (I'm currently in the US) and even these look light years ahead of my old Furuno. But I don't really know what I'm looking at and I'll need to make sure that whatever I find can work with my chosen MFD.

I'm leaning towards an Axiom as my MFD, although I have misgivings about a system that relies entirely on a touchscreen.

You can buy a keyed remote for some functions. But i'd go for Garmin anyway.

I'm possibly open to the idea of a more DIY route involving a rugged tablet. But I'm not very techie and don't want to go down a rabbit hole on this.

Tablets are OK for second screens, but you can't beat a proper MFD for showing all of your data.

Whatever MFD you choose the radar must be the same make and the same tech (analogue, digital etc) check compatibility.

 

[Sea Change]

Ok thanks. So in order to work with a modern MFD I'm looking for a digital radome as a minimum.

How much does it matter that my existing stuff, such as it is, is Raymarine? I'm aware that STNG is basically NMEA2K with different physical connectors.

The rough plan at the moment goes something like this:

MFD at helm
Repeaters at companionway/bridge
"something" providing a WiFi function
Tablet at chart table repeating as much as possible, ideally to include AP control
Additional devices (phones) connected to allow off watch crew to be kept in the loop

One plan would be to get an MFD that also does the WiFi bit. But a friend was telling me that the Raymarine app just does a screen mirroring function and it's a pretty poor way of achieving what I want. He was suggesting a dedicated WiFi device.


As I hopefully made clear, I don't really enjoy all this tech stuff. Some people seem to get a kick out of it, which is good for them, it just kind of bores me and I just want it to work so I can go sailing. So I'm not looking for any extra gizmos just for the sake of it. My friend was very enthusiastically telling me about all the data logs he's building up, creating his own bespoke polars, graphing fuel consumption vs boat speed, etc etc. I think he's turned his boat in to NASA mission control

 

[requiem]

Agree with what's already been said; match the radar to the plotter. A modern radar is also far more energy efficient than the older models. While I prefer phone or tablet to a plotter, the exception is radar. Often I'll have the plotter dedicated to radar while primary navigation is handled via phone or tablet. Don't expect to have radar on a tablet unless you're suing the screen mirroring app (which I don't use).

I like having a small repeater display at the nav table so you have radar below decks. I've gotten used to having twin helms which makes a centrally-mounted plotter easily accessible to all. If you have only a single helm then perhaps something at the companionway or elsewhere makes sense. Really it depends on how your boat is crewed and how often someone who's not the helmsman needs to access the plotter.

My main complaint with Raymarine kit is their proprietary nature; they won't even stream NMEA over wifi, so I'd budget for a separate wifi gateway that will.

 

[Sea Change]

So the consensus seems to be pointing towards Garmin?

 

[Dockhead]

. . .

And avoid the B&G 4G. Mine failed at around 6 years old and internet searches show this is a common issue.

The Navico (B&G, Simrad, etc.) 4G radar is an excellent piece of kit! 90% of failures are in the rubber band drive of the antenna. This is a dead simple fix which you can do yourself.

 

[Dockhead]

Ok thanks. So in order to work with a modern MFD I'm looking for a digital radome as a minimum.

How much does it matter that my existing stuff, such as it is, is Raymarine? I'm aware that STNG is basically NMEA2K with different physical connectors.

The rough plan at the moment goes something like this:

MFD at helm
Repeaters at companionway/bridge
"something" providing a WiFi function
Tablet at chart table repeating as much as possible, ideally to include AP control
Additional devices (phones) connected to allow off watch crew to be kept in the loop

One plan would be to get an MFD that also does the WiFi bit. But a friend was telling me that the Raymarine app just does a screen mirroring function and it's a pretty poor way of achieving what I want. He was suggesting a dedicated WiFi device. , , ,

A simple solution for this, if you are not married to Raymarine, is to go B&G. Their MFD's have wifi built in. You can not only mirror the MFD but actually control it provided you use a tablet and not a phone. So you can operate the radar, check AIS targets, zoom in and out on the chart, even do navigation, using the tablet.

I have Zeus 3S 9 at the helm and a smaller cheaper Zeus 3 7 at the nav table. No separate wifi device is required. I have a Samsung rugged tablet with which I can control either MFD from under the spray hood or even from my bunk. Simple, straightforward setup.

If you want autopilot control at the chart table then with Navico kit you will need an actual MFD, and not just a tablet, at the nav table. The remote control app does not allow you to control the pilot from a tablet; it's considered a safety issue. I bet other makers do it the same way.

 

[PaulRainbow]

A simple solution for this, if you are not married to Raymarine, is to go B&G. Their MFD's have wifi built in. You can not only mirror the MFD but actually control it provided you use a tablet and not a phone. So you can operate the radar, check AIS targets, zoom in and out on the chart, even do navigation, using the tablet.

I have Zeus 3S 9 at the helm and a smaller cheaper Zeus 3 7 at the nav table. No separate wifi device is required. I have a Samsung rugged tablet with which I can control either MFD from under the spray hood or even from my bunk. Simple, straightforward setup.

If you want autopilot control at the chart table then with Navico kit you will need an actual MFD, and not just a tablet, at the nav table. The remote control app does not allow you to control the pilot from a tablet; it's considered a safety issue. I bet other makers do it the same way.

I would not fit B&G if it was a gift.

 

[Stemar]

I used to be well up on IT, and built all my PCs. My big rule was always to buy all my bits from the same supplier, confirming that they were compatible. Otherwise, motherboard from A, processor from B. graphics from C and memory from D. You have a problem? A blames B, B blames C, and so on, back to A.

I reckon the same would apply to putting together a boat navigation/management system.

 

[fredrussell]

I'm leaning towards an Axiom as my MFD, although I have misgivings about a system that relies entirely on a touchscreen.

My Garmin has touchscreen AND physical buttons. I wouldn’t want a touchscreen only plotter, but obviously it’s a personal preference thing.

 

[PaulRainbow]

So the consensus seems to be pointing towards Garmin?

Whatever MFD you choose the following applies :

Radar must be same make and compatible model, anything remotely recent will be digital.

The autopilot should steer to route, wind, heading etc, but you cannot engage/disengage it from the MFD unless it's a similar vintage running compatible software.

If you have Seatalk instruments that you want to keep they will not directly interface with the MFD, you need the ST to STNG converter. As you said, STNG is N2K with Raymarine ripoff cables. If you fit the converter then add a STNG to N2K backbone cable you have a split network to which you can add anything STNG or N2K. Even if you fit an Axiom you cannot directly connect it to STNG, it needs a converter cable.

So, given the above, it makes no difference in terms of networking/connectivity which brand you go with.

IMO, B&G and Simrad should be avoided. Raymarine is better than it used to be, particularly customer support, but i still find their menus etc unintuitive, some people like them. When asked, i always recommend Garmin and that's what i have myself 100% Garmin.

The MFD is the heart of the system, get the biggest you can afford/have room for and fit it at the helm. Choose a GPSMAP model, not a Echomap, as these do not support Radar or mirroring. The GPSMAP 923 or 1223 are good models. You can usually find used radomes around and most/all models from 15 or so years will work. If you have Seatalk instruments (ST50s, ST60s, autopilot etc) Fit a ST to STNG converter and STNG to N2K backbone cable. Below decks you can fit a cheap Android tablet (£79.99 for a 10.4" one on special at Amazon at the moment). The Garmin Active Captain app will allow you to mirror the plotter to the tablet (or two) or make the tablet a stand alone plotter, good as a backup.

If you're keeping an older autopilot you'll need a 2nd controller below decks to control it. You can guy a 2nd tablet and pass that around off watch crew so they can see what's going on, or they can use a phone, but you can only uses 2 Android devices at a time. The Garmin app can be clunky when doing updates, but it's miles ahead of the Raymarine apps.

 

[lustyd]

Of course budget comes in to this. I'm not about to spend £5k on a bunch of new gear. I can find secondhand radomes for as little as $100

Definitely spend a bit more to get modern kit. People don’t talk about it much but radar overlay on the chart almost entirely removes the need to a radar course (which is essential on old sets).
People also rarely mention that a good radar makes anchorages feel bigger. When you can measure the distance from your radome to the anchored boats you know you’ll fit, and the space you thought was too small is 200m wide which is ample. Older sets couldn’t do this at such short range.
Finally, people rarely mention that modern sets can and do pick up birds and pot markers. I wouldn’t rely on it but it’s more than you have without radar.

 

[PaulRainbow]

Definitely spend a bit more to get modern kit. People don’t talk about it much but radar overlay on the chart almost entirely removes the need to a radar course (which is essential on old sets).
People also rarely mention that a good radar makes anchorages feel bigger. When you can measure the distance from your radome to the anchored boats you know you’ll fit, and the space you thought was too small is 200m wide which is ample. Older sets couldn’t do this at such short range.
Finally, people rarely mention that modern sets can and do pick up birds and pot markers. I wouldn’t rely on it but it’s more than you have without radar.

All good points Dave

 

[Dockhead]

I would not fit B&G if it was a gift.

People say the same thing about Raymarine, Garmin, or whatever with the sole exception of Furuno.

I've had them all at various times over the years (except Furuno) and I don't really think one is worse than the other. Navico (B&G, Simrad, Lowrance) are horrible in some things, and I particularly hate the speed at which they stop supporting and orphan older equipment. I have other complaints, but Ray and Garmin are not particularly better, and if you race as I do occasionally then B&G has some significant advantages.

My very first chart plotter, back in the 90's, was a Garmin, but I personally like these least of all of the choices. For me the whole control structure is dumbed-down the way Apple products are, which is just not for me (but may be the opposite for some people). For many years Garmin also had the issue of forcing you to use their cartography; maybe after the acquisition of Navionics this has become better.

I had Raymarine for a long time; the old Pathfinder radar and the RL-series plotters. That was quite good kit, but the subsequent generations became less stable and less usable, in my opinion.

Furuno gear is supposed to be the closest to real professional-quality electronics for boats, and with the best radars. I wouldn't know as that's the one type I haven't tried. It can't be integrated with sailing computers and other racing gear, so I can't use it.

 

[Sea Change]

A simple solution for this, if you are not married to Raymarine, is to go B&G. Their MFD's have wifi built in. You can not only mirror the MFD but actually control it provided you use a tablet and not a phone. So you can operate the radar, check AIS targets, zoom in and out on the chart, even do navigation, using the tablet.

I have Zeus 3S 9 at the helm and a smaller cheaper Zeus 3 7 at the nav table. No separate wifi device is required. I have a Samsung rugged tablet with which I can control either MFD from under the spray hood or even from my bunk. Simple, straightforward setup.

If you want autopilot control at the chart table then with Navico kit you will need an actual MFD, and not just a tablet, at the nav table. The remote control app does not allow you to control the pilot from a tablet; it's considered a safety issue. I bet other makers do it the same way.

This sounds exactly like what the Raymarine Axiom can do, as far as I understand it- WiFi mirroring via an app, AP can only be controlled via the MFD or control head.

 

[PaulRainbow]

A simple solution for this, if you are not married to Raymarine, is to go B&G. Their MFD's have wifi built in. You can not only mirror the MFD but actually control it provided you use a tablet and not a phone. So you can operate the radar, check AIS targets, zoom in and out on the chart, even do navigation, using the tablet.

You can do all of this with Raymarine and Garmin, with tablets AND phones.

I have Zeus 3S 9 at the helm and a smaller cheaper Zeus 3 7 at the nav table. No separate wifi device is required. I have a Samsung rugged tablet with which I can control either MFD from under the spray hood or even from my bunk. Simple, straightforward setup.

Again, Raymarine and Garmin can do this.

If you want autopilot control at the chart table then with Navico kit you will need an actual MFD, and not just a tablet, at the nav table. The remote control app does not allow you to control the pilot from a tablet; it's considered a safety issue. I bet other makers do it the same way.

Nope, I can control my Garmin autopilot from a tablet or even a phone, FULLY control it.

 

[lustyd]

You can do all of this with Raymarine and Garmin, with tablets AND phones.

It wasn’t long ago that the MFDs didn’t have the WiFi built in, certainly for Raymarine, so it was probably worth a mention if only to highlight that some plotters need additional routers to make it work. No longer a manufacturer thing I agree but worth looking out for if going second hand.

 

[PaulRainbow]

People say the same thing about Raymarine, Garmin, or whatever with the sole exception of Furuno.

I've had them all at various times over the years (except Furuno) and I don't really think one is worse than the other. Navico (B&G, Simrad, Lowrance) are horrible in some things, and I particularly hate the speed at which they stop supporting and orphan older equipment. I have other complaints, but Ray and Garmin are not particularly better, and if you race as I do occasionally then B&G has some significant advantages.

My very first chart plotter, back in the 90's, was a Garmin, but I personally like these least of all of the choices. For me the whole control structure is dumbed-down the way Apple products are, which is just not for me (but may be the opposite for some people). For many years Garmin also had the issue of forcing you to use their cartography; maybe after the acquisition of Navionics this has become better.

I had Raymarine for a long time; the old Pathfinder radar and the RL-series plotters. That was quite good kit, but the subsequent generations became less stable and less usable, in my opinion.

Furuno gear is supposed to be the closest to real professional-quality electronics for boats, and with the best radars. I wouldn't know as that's the one type I haven't tried. It can't be integrated with sailing computers and other racing gear, so I can't use it.

I work with this every day and can confidently say that i see more issues with modern Navico kit than anything else, they have never been particularly good and their customer service has always been the worst. So much so, i will not supply it. Raymarine service is much, much better than it was and Garmin is exemplary.