Copious
Member
Is it normal to use a solicitor when buying a boat? If you are looking at a foreign registered yacht does this become more relevant? All comments welcome,
Copious.
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Copious.
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Buying
- Thread starter Copious
- Start date
Koeketiene
Well-known member
Foreign? Where?
Foreign's a big place.
<hr width=100% size=1>Experience is a good teacher, but she sends in terrific bills.
Foreign's a big place.
<hr width=100% size=1>Experience is a good teacher, but she sends in terrific bills.
Copious
Member
EU countries I was thinking of.
Copious
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Copious
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Appleyard
Well-known member
Good question Copious We are thinking of buying abroad..in the EU ..does anyone have an idea of the procedure ?We obviously want to be sure that all the details are ok and all I's are dotted and T's crossed etc .we will be using a surveyor,but do we need to use a lawyer also?
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Koeketiene
Well-known member
Re: Buying abroad
OK, people. I'll try to be as helpfull as I can here.
EU's still a big place, so I'll just comment on the places I delt with myself.
- Greece: avoid like the plague. Admin minefield. Lots of lowprice ex-charter yachts available, if that's your cup of tea. Don't trust Brit expats - they'll swindle you with the same ease & grace as the locals.
- Spain: like Greece, but not as bad. If you're after a Bavaria -> they have a special programme if you want to buy ex-charters.
- France: Wide variety of boats (both broker / private sale). Mostly French AWB's. If you stick to the Atlantic/Channel coast, it's unlikely they'll be charter boats. Most brokers will speak English.
- Holland: walk in the park. Lots of reputable brokers (De Valk,...). Will take you through the whole process. Speak English, are familiar with English rules & regulations. Wide choice of boat (Jen/Ben/Bav, Dehler, Van de Stadt,....).
-Belgium: like Holland - prices slightly cheaper (hardly any brokers).
We we were looking for a boat, we looked mostly in Belgium and Holland. Below some links, they should give you an idea of what's available:
Ship Shop - Belgium - broker
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.navi-sell.com/>Navi Sell</A> - Belgium - broker - British yachts (Westerly, etc...) available
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.devalk.nl/indexeng.html>De Valk</A> - Holland - broker. Recommended!
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.hetterschijt.nl/>Hetterschijt</A> - Holland - broker
We found Yanita through Botenbank - Belgium - private sale.
This should be enough to be getting on with.
William
<hr width=100% size=1>Experience is a good teacher, but she sends in terrific bills.
OK, people. I'll try to be as helpfull as I can here.
EU's still a big place, so I'll just comment on the places I delt with myself.
- Greece: avoid like the plague. Admin minefield. Lots of lowprice ex-charter yachts available, if that's your cup of tea. Don't trust Brit expats - they'll swindle you with the same ease & grace as the locals.
- Spain: like Greece, but not as bad. If you're after a Bavaria -> they have a special programme if you want to buy ex-charters.
- France: Wide variety of boats (both broker / private sale). Mostly French AWB's. If you stick to the Atlantic/Channel coast, it's unlikely they'll be charter boats. Most brokers will speak English.
- Holland: walk in the park. Lots of reputable brokers (De Valk,...). Will take you through the whole process. Speak English, are familiar with English rules & regulations. Wide choice of boat (Jen/Ben/Bav, Dehler, Van de Stadt,....).
-Belgium: like Holland - prices slightly cheaper (hardly any brokers).
We we were looking for a boat, we looked mostly in Belgium and Holland. Below some links, they should give you an idea of what's available:
Ship Shop - Belgium - broker
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.navi-sell.com/>Navi Sell</A> - Belgium - broker - British yachts (Westerly, etc...) available
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.devalk.nl/indexeng.html>De Valk</A> - Holland - broker. Recommended!
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.hetterschijt.nl/>Hetterschijt</A> - Holland - broker
We found Yanita through Botenbank - Belgium - private sale.
This should be enough to be getting on with.
William
<hr width=100% size=1>Experience is a good teacher, but she sends in terrific bills.
wishbone
New member
Re: Buying abroad
Hi just read your post and thanks for your input, seems my instincs were right abot Greece looking at Holland and USA at the moment, got the ackers! cant find the boat yet....!!
<hr width=100% size=1>Wishbone
Rolling, rolling, rolling keep them doggies moving!
Where’s me chuck wagon gone?
Hi just read your post and thanks for your input, seems my instincs were right abot Greece looking at Holland and USA at the moment, got the ackers! cant find the boat yet....!!
<hr width=100% size=1>Wishbone
Rolling, rolling, rolling keep them doggies moving!
Where’s me chuck wagon gone?
mike_bryon
New member
It is not normal but some years ago I used a solicitor when a boat purchase went wrong. I paid a deposit of £9k only to be informed by the surveyor that the yachter broker had gone into receivership. I was faced with the difficult decision of how to proceed fearing what would happen to the balance if I transferred it as the broker wanted (despite receivership!) and fearing the fate of my deposit if I did not.
The solicitor took over the sale and the balance was transferred into his client account and paid to the seller with transfer of ownership to me (the fate of the deposit was resolved between the broker and seller but I understand was mostly taken up by their fee). It cost me £600 in solicitor fees.
The advice I received at the time (from both the broker and solicitor) was that the risk was the sellers and not mine and had I transferred the money but it was not received by the seller then I would still have the right to legal title of the boat.
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The solicitor took over the sale and the balance was transferred into his client account and paid to the seller with transfer of ownership to me (the fate of the deposit was resolved between the broker and seller but I understand was mostly taken up by their fee). It cost me £600 in solicitor fees.
The advice I received at the time (from both the broker and solicitor) was that the risk was the sellers and not mine and had I transferred the money but it was not received by the seller then I would still have the right to legal title of the boat.
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Copious
Member
William,
Thank you for your comments which are very useful. I am more intrigued as to whether buyers tend to employ the services of a solicitor once they have chosen a boat from a broker/private individual?
Mike,
Again thank you for that story. It seems £600 is a small price to pay for the comfort!
Copious
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Thank you for your comments which are very useful. I am more intrigued as to whether buyers tend to employ the services of a solicitor once they have chosen a boat from a broker/private individual?
Mike,
Again thank you for that story. It seems £600 is a small price to pay for the comfort!
Copious
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Koeketiene
Well-known member
Using a solicitor
Didn't use one - did not see the need.
OTOH: if I were buying in Greece or Spain, I would have
<hr width=100% size=1>Experience is a good teacher, but she sends in terrific bills.
Didn't use one - did not see the need.
OTOH: if I were buying in Greece or Spain, I would have
<hr width=100% size=1>Experience is a good teacher, but she sends in terrific bills.
absit_omen
New member
Caveat emptor! Do not even think that buying through a reputable broker is always safe. I bought our last boat from an English broker in Spain. She was part one registered and after paying my 10% deposit, lift out, survey etc, handed over the balance and received a Bill of Sale from the broker. Later that afternoon as I was preparing to sail I received a phone call from the broker to say that, having consulted the Registry in Cardiff he was told that the boat still had two mortgages on her!!
Fuming, I said that in that case, the Bill of Sale was fraudulent as the owner had signed to say that there were no liens on the boat. The broker said that he would ´sort it out´. Against my better judgement I continued with the purchase and sailed to my home port. After FIVE MONTHS of numerous e mails, letters and phone calls to the broker and the Registry I was assured that debts had been cleared and the boat was now in my name.
In law, during those five months I was not the owner of my boat, the insurance was invalid as was my contract with he marina in which she was berthed. The broker denied this, insisting that the Bill of Sale was valid. I contacted he YBDSA and they advised that, if I wished, I could sue the broker.
Many will scorn and say that it was my fault and I would agree. My message is ... stay objective, check all paperwork, do not part with any cach unless you are sure you are not at risk and, most important....trust no one! As liveaboards this boat is our one and only home. Most of our capital was tied up in her and we could easily have lost the lot.
Oh, and before anyone mentions it, I have read the small print on the Registration and I know that this does not give title to the boat. However it is the bes thing we currently have in the UK and this, along with the ´reputable broker´gave us a false sense of security.
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Fuming, I said that in that case, the Bill of Sale was fraudulent as the owner had signed to say that there were no liens on the boat. The broker said that he would ´sort it out´. Against my better judgement I continued with the purchase and sailed to my home port. After FIVE MONTHS of numerous e mails, letters and phone calls to the broker and the Registry I was assured that debts had been cleared and the boat was now in my name.
In law, during those five months I was not the owner of my boat, the insurance was invalid as was my contract with he marina in which she was berthed. The broker denied this, insisting that the Bill of Sale was valid. I contacted he YBDSA and they advised that, if I wished, I could sue the broker.
Many will scorn and say that it was my fault and I would agree. My message is ... stay objective, check all paperwork, do not part with any cach unless you are sure you are not at risk and, most important....trust no one! As liveaboards this boat is our one and only home. Most of our capital was tied up in her and we could easily have lost the lot.
Oh, and before anyone mentions it, I have read the small print on the Registration and I know that this does not give title to the boat. However it is the bes thing we currently have in the UK and this, along with the ´reputable broker´gave us a false sense of security.
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Appleyard
Well-known member
What would be the situation re a British owned and registered boat currently in Greece,advertised through a UK Broker .What safeguards would I have to carry out in order to make sure that the sale went ahead without any later problems?
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Sea Devil
Well-known member
If the boat is part one registered - blue book the UK broker or you can check there is no outstanding lien - marine mortgage on the boat.
If it is UK owned, UK registered and a UK owner then really there is no difference from buying in the UK even if it is in a foreign port. Do the deal in £s sterling and via UK banks only. It would be worth calling - visiting the marina office to make sure all the harbour dues are fully paid to the day you purchase.....
It is normal to pay a deposit prior to survey but it does not have to be 10% whatever the broker may say - it should be enough to proove serious intent but that is negotiable.
I think owners from Greece and most Arab countries are a bit dodgy simply because of the cultural differences. USA France Spain and the rest of Europe should be fine - as fine as buying in the UK - ..................
If it is UK owned, UK registered and a UK owner then really there is no difference from buying in the UK even if it is in a foreign port. Do the deal in £s sterling and via UK banks only. It would be worth calling - visiting the marina office to make sure all the harbour dues are fully paid to the day you purchase.....
It is normal to pay a deposit prior to survey but it does not have to be 10% whatever the broker may say - it should be enough to proove serious intent but that is negotiable.
I think owners from Greece and most Arab countries are a bit dodgy simply because of the cultural differences. USA France Spain and the rest of Europe should be fine - as fine as buying in the UK - ..................
Formercruiser
New member
What about the S&S34? Bigger than a Contessa and faster than a Rival 34. I cruised an S&S34 for six years and we got on very well - a beautiful, fast and extremely seaworthy boat and - in my opinion - greatly undervalued.
Birdseye
Well-known member
Does anyone have experience of transferring Registries. If you buy a foreign flagged boat in Holland or somewhere similar in the EU, how do you go about transferring it to the british flag and then registering it?
Melody
Active member
Re: Buying abroad
That's a very jaundiced view of Greece! I agree that you do have to be extremely careful and there are plenty of crooks here, but we're not all like that!!
A big advantage is the sheer number of boats for sale at any time makes the prices low.
Best advice - buy direct from owner and don't use an agent, get a surveyor (there are good English speaking ones in Greece), use a solicitor, be prepared for it to take time and more than one visit, and be pleasant! You'd be surprised how much better the treatment is for friendly relaxed foreigners than for arrogant impatient ones.
Cheers
That's a very jaundiced view of Greece! I agree that you do have to be extremely careful and there are plenty of crooks here, but we're not all like that!!
A big advantage is the sheer number of boats for sale at any time makes the prices low.
Best advice - buy direct from owner and don't use an agent, get a surveyor (there are good English speaking ones in Greece), use a solicitor, be prepared for it to take time and more than one visit, and be pleasant! You'd be surprised how much better the treatment is for friendly relaxed foreigners than for arrogant impatient ones.
Cheers
Ships_Cat
New member
Can't comment on any reciprocal arrangements that may or may not exist in EU, but as no one has given you any answer the following is usual.
Firstly, the registration in the original country is closed, either by:
- the new owner closes the registration, in which case the vessel has to be transferred to his ownership on the original register first. Normally the new owner can make this transfer but the previous owner will have to complete a declaration of transfer for the register to accompany the transfer. The new owner has to be eligible (eg a citizen) to own a boat on the register to do it this way.
or
- the old owner just closes the registration, which is normally the easiest and cheapest.
Both these normally involve fees, the responsibility for which needs to be agreed between the purchaser and the new owner. If the vessel has to be sailed internationally from the port of purchase to its new home after the old registration is closed, then the boat has to be placed on its new register beforehand.
Then:
- The new owner applies to register the boat on the new register. The new register may or may not accept the measurements from the previous register - if not the boat will have to be resurveyed (that is, normally, only required if the boat is going on the main, not the secondary register).
John
Firstly, the registration in the original country is closed, either by:
- the new owner closes the registration, in which case the vessel has to be transferred to his ownership on the original register first. Normally the new owner can make this transfer but the previous owner will have to complete a declaration of transfer for the register to accompany the transfer. The new owner has to be eligible (eg a citizen) to own a boat on the register to do it this way.
or
- the old owner just closes the registration, which is normally the easiest and cheapest.
Both these normally involve fees, the responsibility for which needs to be agreed between the purchaser and the new owner. If the vessel has to be sailed internationally from the port of purchase to its new home after the old registration is closed, then the boat has to be placed on its new register beforehand.
Then:
- The new owner applies to register the boat on the new register. The new register may or may not accept the measurements from the previous register - if not the boat will have to be resurveyed (that is, normally, only required if the boat is going on the main, not the secondary register).
John
Sea Devil
Well-known member
to transfer registry you simply fill in the form on the net or paper - Part one registry is expensive and requires a survey et al - SSR is just the form - pay the fee and that's it... the previously foreign flagged boat has become British flagged. The old countries registration automatically lapses as it is no longer owned by the 'foriegner'.
Ships_Cat
New member
The situation is in most, if not all, main registers that it is a legal requirement for the vessel to be formally closed off the register if it is sold to someone who is not entitled to have a boat on the register (normally because not a citizen) or the vessel is lost or destroyed. It is also a requirement that a change of ownership of a vessel on the main register be formally transferred if it is to stay on that register.
Normally on a secondary register the registration terminates (I don't know if that is the case with the UK SSR) on sale but the register normally has to be notified.
All of that is the responsibility of the previous owner. However, when the boat is entered on another main or secondary register, details of previous registration have to be disclosed and proof of closure are asked for (as the vessel cannot be on 2 registers and as proof of the trail of ownership).
Those things may vary subtly between registers, but they all work basically the same. One can just ignore the requirements but that is ones own decision and risk.
For some secondary registers the registration is time limited (typically only lasts 5 years) - I do not know if that is the case with the UK SSR - and are sometimes a little less stringent, but it would pay to check.
Trust that is of some use.
John
Normally on a secondary register the registration terminates (I don't know if that is the case with the UK SSR) on sale but the register normally has to be notified.
All of that is the responsibility of the previous owner. However, when the boat is entered on another main or secondary register, details of previous registration have to be disclosed and proof of closure are asked for (as the vessel cannot be on 2 registers and as proof of the trail of ownership).
Those things may vary subtly between registers, but they all work basically the same. One can just ignore the requirements but that is ones own decision and risk.
For some secondary registers the registration is time limited (typically only lasts 5 years) - I do not know if that is the case with the UK SSR - and are sometimes a little less stringent, but it would pay to check.
Trust that is of some use.
John
