Buying spanish reg boat uk resident help

[Sea Devil]

I think you are mixing reality with theory,

The reality of a boat is that it can be anywhere in the world, even Gib, provided it is not noted on any paperwork - if you look at a MCA part 1 bill of sale you can see

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...le/301532/msf_4705_bill_of_sale_rev_02-14.pdf

there is no space for stating where the boat is laying.- nor should there be - the transaction is between the vendor who has a EU address and the purchaser with an EU address.

It is simply scaremongering to suggest that an historic bill of sale between two EU citizens is not legitimate to avoid further VAT payment because the boat might, might temporally have been somewhere else...

 

[Tranona]

I think you are mixing reality with theory,

The reality of a boat is that it can be anywhere in the world, even Gib, provided it is not noted on any paperwork - if you look at a MCA part 1 bill of sale you can see

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...le/301532/msf_4705_bill_of_sale_rev_02-14.pdf

there is no space for stating where the boat is laying.- nor should there be - the transaction is between the vendor who has a EU address and the purchaser with an EU address.

It is simply scaremongering to suggest that an historic bill of sale between two EU citizens is not legitimate to avoid further VAT payment because the boat might, might temporally have been somewhere else...

Registration is absolutely nothing to do with VAT in this context.

VAT is a tax on transactions, not on boats. Of course you can take a british owned and registered boat anywhere in the world and return to the EU. People move their boats in and out of the EU all the time without any VAT issues, particularly in areas where the EU buts up against non EU - Greece/Turkey, Greece/Montenegro, Spain/Gib, Spain/Morrocco, France/Channel Islands etc.

HJOWEVER it is crystal clear that if a boat changes ownership outside the EU it is deemed to have been exported, so if it is re-imported into the EU there is a potential VAT liability as that is deemed a "chargeable event".

To quote HMRC in section A5 of the RYA FAQ sheet

"Yes, if the vessel is sold (changes hands) outside the EU it will lose its deemed VAt paid status and will no longer be eligible to returned goods relief. This means the vessel will be liable to VAT on importation to the EU"

So, not scaremongering at all. The boat has to be in the EU already and the Bill of Sale showing that the transaction took place in the EU to avoid getting into this situation.

So, for the OP he needs to see a continuous trail of Bills of Sale to show that all the transactions involving the boat took place in the EU to avoid the possibility of falling foul of this rule.

Of course that does not mean it is not possible to avoid it by acting illegally and not declaring the boat on entry into the EU, but that does not change the potential liability. It is up to him to decide if it is worth acting in this way.

 

[macd]

it is crystal clear that if a boat changes ownership outside the EU it is deemed to have been exported

...and it's hardly contrived of the VAT authorities to take such a view. After all, a perfectly sound definition of 'to export' would be: to move something to another country and sell it.

 

[Flier2]

Good stuff chaps - If the boat has been moored in a non eu qualifying country for under 3 years (and has been in and out
Several times ) the vendor chooses to sell across the border. I am convinced its continues as vat paid.
Ps i have the previous bill of sale from spanish deregistation - transfered in spain - and last bill of sale again
Completed in Spain.
I dont believe there is any ambiguity here. All of the rules/laws that have been kindly brought to the table
Have been followed. Thanks again

 

[Sea Devil]

Registration is absolutely nothing to do with VAT in this context.

VAT is a tax on transactions, not on boats. Of course you can take a british owned and registered boat anywhere in the world and return to the EU. People move their boats in and out of the EU all the time without any VAT issues, particularly in areas where the EU buts up against non EU - Greece/Turkey, Greece/Montenegro, Spain/Gib, Spain/Morrocco, France/Channel Islands etc.

HJOWEVER it is crystal clear that if a boat changes ownership outside the EU it is deemed to have been exported, so if it is re-imported into the EU there is a potential VAT liability as that is deemed a "chargeable event".

To quote HMRC in section A5 of the RYA FAQ sheet

"Yes, if the vessel is sold (changes hands) outside the EU it will lose its deemed VAt paid status and will no longer be eligible to returned goods relief. This means the vessel will be liable to VAT on importation to the EU"

So, not scaremongering at all. The boat has to be in the EU already and the Bill of Sale showing that the transaction took place in the EU to avoid getting into this situation.

So, for the OP he needs to see a continuous trail of Bills of Sale to show that all the transactions involving the boat took place in the EU to avoid the possibility of falling foul of this rule.

Of course that does not mean it is not possible to avoid it by acting illegally and not declaring the boat on entry into the EU, but that does not change the potential liability. It is up to him to decide if it is worth acting in this way.

But you did not read or perhaps did not understand my post - There is a world of difference between theory and the reality of how it all actually works -

 

[macd]

There is a world of difference between theory and the reality of how it all actually works -

Of course there is, and I've no doubt Tranona's reading skills can grasp that.
But another reality is that the 'VAT status' of boats crusing about the EU is very rarely checked. That doesn't stop most owners leaning towards the 'theory' side and making damn sure their papers are in order (or at least credibly massaged). The difference between theory and reality becomes ever-smaller when the cost of getting it wrong runs into tens of thousands.

Flier 2 has satisfied himself that his new boat passes the test, in theory and in practice. The knowledge has made him a happy bunny. What's the problem?

 

[Sea Devil]

just amusing myself by winding him up - naughty huh?

 

[Tranona]

just amusing myself by winding him up - naughty huh?

Reality works both ways. It is important to understand the legal position if you are risking large amounts of money. If you still decide to break the law on the basis of rumours from people on forums that it does not matter, that is your affair.

BTW you should really get up to speed with VAT law and rules as you seem to have some serious misconceptions about how it works. Recognise that for the vast majority of people such knowledge is irrelevant, but if you stray into areas where the niceties of the law become important (like Flier2) it pays to get it right.

 

[Sea Devil]

just amusing myself by winding him up - naughty huh?

looks like I succeed!

This is a little sailing forum and messing about in boats is supposed to be fun ............

 

[runningman]

This has been a very interesting discussion as I am in the process of buying a boat in Spain.

I understand there are two registers in Spain - one is a shipping register, with most recreational boats registered on either List 6 or List 7a. The other register is a "moveable property register".

Does anyone know if it is possible to query these registers online? My Spanish isn't good and google isn't helping much.

 

[Sea Devil]

This has been a very interesting discussion as I am in the process of buying a boat in Spain.

I understand there are two registers in Spain - one is a shipping register, with most recreational boats registered on either List
Does aunyone know if it is possible to query these registers online? My Spanish isn't good and google isn't helping much.[/QUOTtE]

I don't know and I am on the boat for a week or so but try Alex - on this link - he will know for certain

http://www.michaelbriant.com/spain_boat_rules.htm

If you have no luck come back to me next weekend

Michael

 

[Flier2]

Hey runingman, Yes that would be fantastic to find out without having to pay the lawyers
And save a lot of future purchasers a load of hassle.
Surely there is a website or official website where you can just put in spanish reg and
You get info straight away or by return email.

Michael paw paw- I tried alex spoke to him and emailed query and to be fair he gave me incorrect
Information (or was it the way i asked lol!)

Anyways there must be someone out there with this ultra useful info to save a load of hassle.
Cheers john

 

[Tranona]

looks like I succeed!

This is a little sailing forum and messing about in boats is supposed to be fun ............

It is indeed fun - until you rub authorities up the wrong way, so being in possession of accurate information is useful. Then you can enjoy your boating.

 

[runningman]

Hey runingman, Yes that would be fantastic to find out without having to pay the lawyers
And save a lot of future purchasers a load of hassle.
Surely there is a website or official website where you can just put in spanish reg and
You get info straight away or by return email.

Michael paw paw- I tried alex spoke to him and emailed query and to be fair he gave me incorrect
Information (or was it the way i asked lol!)

Anyways there must be someone out there with this ultra useful info to save a load of hassle.
Cheers john

I found a Spanish website for checking various registrations but haven't been able to extract anything useful from it so far. https://www.registradores.org/registroVirtual/init.do Let me know if you have more luck with it.

I emailed Alex Chumillas at Tax Marine and he wanted 2,500€ + 21% VAT to check a handful of documents and check the Spanish registry. Call me tight fisted but this seems like a heck of a lot of money for what should be, to my mind, a very simple task for someone who speaks Spanish and is familiar with the system. I'll keep looking...

 

[Sea Devil]

It is indeed fun - until you rub authorities up the wrong way, so being in possession of accurate information is useful. Then you can enjoy your boating.

Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools.

In places like Spain and indeed Gibraltar what is important is to know what is the local 'custom and practice'. The UK is probably the only EU country that 'obeys and follows' all EU legislation!

I have found that in Spain the trick is to do like the Spanish!

there is nothing so good as simply messing about in boats and the UK totally allows that thank goodness. Whilst taxes and death are inevitable having fun in boats is not about getting certificates from non elected organizations and worrying about everything - get a life - start sailing!

 

[Sea Devil]

I found a Spanish website for checking various registrations but haven't been able to extract anything useful from it so far. https://www.registradores.org/registroVirtual/init.do Let me know if you have more luck with it.

I emailed Alex Chumillas at Tax Marine and he wanted 2,500€ + 21% VAT to check a handful of documents and check the Spanish registry. Call me tight fisted but this seems like a heck of a lot of money for what should be, to my mind, a very simple task for someone who speaks Spanish and is familiar with the system. I'll keep looking...

I think you could try http://www.gestoriaestepona.com/en/ which I found ex Google and face book. they speak and write English and Estapona is a boaty place full of Brits.
You will have to pay something but a gestoria is NOT a lawyer rather somebody who knows the system and can do things legally on your behalf.

mIchael
Let me know how you get on....

 

[runningman]

I think you could try http://www.gestoriaestepona.com/en/ which I found ex Google and face book. they speak and write English and Estapona is a boaty place full of Brits.
You will have to pay something but a gestoria is NOT a lawyer rather somebody who knows the system and can do things legally on your behalf.

mIchael
Let me know how you get on....

Already tried that gestoria. My enquiry was passed to a yacht broker who contacted me and tried to muscle in on the deal (a private sale between two individuals - no yacht broker involved). All I really want at this stage is to check the Spanish registry (List 7a). There must be a way!

 

[Tranona]

Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools.

In places like Spain and indeed Gibraltar what is important is to know what is the local 'custom and practice'. The UK is probably the only EU country that 'obeys and follows' all EU legislation!

I have found that in Spain the trick is to do like the Spanish!

there is nothing so good as simply messing about in boats and the UK totally allows that thank goodness. Whilst taxes and death are inevitable having fun in boats is not about getting certificates from non elected organizations and worrying about everything - get a life - start sailing!

Pretty sure you will find that the Spanish customs are just as knowledgeable about VAT law as any others.


Just nonsense to say that only UK enacts EU Directives. All you are doing by suggesting this is showing your ignorance. Indeed if that were the case why do you think there is so much fuss about the UK government being taken to court by the commission because of its stance over red diesel, where it is the only state that allows its sale to pleasure boats.

Just remember when somebody asks for advice here it is best to keep quiet if you don't know what the answer is, and certainly not suggest that they ignore the law.

 

[Sea Devil]

Already tried that gestoria. My enquiry was passed to a yacht broker who contacted me and tried to muscle in on the deal (a private sale between two individuals - no yacht broker involved). All I really want at this stage is to check the Spanish registry (List 7a). There must be a way!

I will ask around and have a look on the Spanish net - I know a Guardia Civil in Ceuta slightly who sails and there is also a Spanish colonel w and I will try to get their emails but............... there are lots of Spanish sailing schools around and that might be a way to the information -

Michael

 

[Flier2]

Well back from gib after failed sea trial. Arranged for mechanic to do a seatrial unfortunately couldnt get into reverse.
He left so i ran the twin volvo ad 41bs for an hour. One seemed fine but port continued to emit blue smoke and oil globules
The whole hour, Shame. Boat san remo 33 was a bargain but possibility of rebuild was a risk too far. Thanks for advice the search continues!