kremmen
Member
I would like to thank everyone for the responses posted here. I am just thinking about finding a boat just for winter months and this information is very useful.
Paul
Paul
Buying spanish reg boat uk resident help
- Thread starter Flier2
- Start date
Sea Devil
Well-known member
Not that warm here in winter and lots of gales............. OK if you stay in the marina with heating for the evenings - nights but not much good for passage making
Michael
kremmen
Member
Hi Michael .
I am in Andalucia at the moment and IF I don't get a winter job next year I would consider it as an alternative to renting a house which is what I am doing this year. I am aware of the weather ( although not specific marina situation ) but almost anything here is warmer than my live aboard narrowboat on the Thames . Whilst it is toasty inside it's not so much outside
Paul
I am in Andalucia at the moment and IF I don't get a winter job next year I would consider it as an alternative to renting a house which is what I am doing this year. I am aware of the weather ( although not specific marina situation ) but almost anything here is warmer than my live aboard narrowboat on the Thames . Whilst it is toasty inside it's not so much outside
Paul
Sea Devil
Well-known member
Hi Michael .
I am in Andalucia at the moment and IF I don't get a winter job next year I would consider it as an alternative to renting a house which is what I am doing this year. I am aware of the weather ( although not specific marina situation ) but almost anything here is warmer than my live aboard narrowboat on the Thames . Whilst it is toasty inside it's not so much outside
Paul
Sure it is warmer and dryer than the UK - but you will still need some heating in the evening and at night. I am retired and make a few bucks by writing etc but I would hate to be trying to find a job on the coast down here.. Unemployment is higher and wages lower than the UK. For many jobs you need to speak Spanish I think and there are lots of Spanish people who speak a bit of English, French, German etc looking for jobs in the tourist industry.
Enjoy your visit - life in the sun beats life with floods and cold
fair winds
Michael
kremmen
Member
I am used to lighting a fire. Not a possibility on the boats I have looked at though. I am retired also and receive a private pension and not looking for a job in Spain but I do have a summer job on the Thames which allows me to think of this option. I may be offered a full time job in the UK which would B*lls this option up. Lets see how this winter goes. Six weeks in now and apart from being lazy I am enjoying it up in my white walled village above torre del mar.
Paul
Paul
srah1953
Member
This is a very interesting thread. I had envisaged buying a Spanish registered boat because the matriculation tax was already paid and, therefore, I thought that this would allow me to go into Spanish ports and say look all the taxes are paid. Apparently not the best option.
Tranona
Well-known member
Cannot understand why you would want to do that. Matriculation tax is only payable if you become resident, and even then it is easily avoided by declaring your boat at the time. There is no need to then put it on the Spanish register. If you are non resident you are free to move around anyway and do not have to pay matriculation tax.
srah1953
Member
Hi Tranona
Yes indeed. I was just highlighting that I was mistaken and, thanks to you and other forumites, I avoided a mistake.
Ta
Flier2
Member
Evening people - Spanish reg boat fell through rather than starting another thread i rekon you guys will sort me out again.
Buying a boat southern spain -
British registered for five years - previousely spanish registered
So 2011 sale was made in spain to a brit removed from spanish reg and xferred onto ssr
Couple of years later boat then sold in gibralter to another brit - xferred on ssr
If i buy the boat i will get the seller to take the boat to spain and will purchase there. And xfer to my
Name on ssr.
So question is - How do i easily find out the previous history on the spanish registations
To 100% prove vat paid. I realize it must have been vat paid to get on the spanish registry however
I do like to cross the ts and have 100% paperwork both for boating in the med and then a few years down the line
When i sell the boat.
Appreciate all input ,john
Buying a boat southern spain -
British registered for five years - previousely spanish registered
So 2011 sale was made in spain to a brit removed from spanish reg and xferred onto ssr
Couple of years later boat then sold in gibralter to another brit - xferred on ssr
If i buy the boat i will get the seller to take the boat to spain and will purchase there. And xfer to my
Name on ssr.
So question is - How do i easily find out the previous history on the spanish registations
To 100% prove vat paid. I realize it must have been vat paid to get on the spanish registry however
I do like to cross the ts and have 100% paperwork both for boating in the med and then a few years down the line
When i sell the boat.
Appreciate all input ,john
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macd
Active member
It was at that emboldened point that the boat lost it's 'VAT paid' status. It is, however, possible that the deal was contrived in such a way (conducted in La Linea, for example) that VAT status was retained. Tread carefully.
Tranona
Well-known member
Firstly registration is irrelevant from a VAT point of view, it is the nature of the transaction that determines VAT. As macd says, and I think you already know taking the boat to Gib means that it is potentially liable for VAT if it re-enters the EU.
Critical will be the date it left the EU and who owned it then. If it went out less than 3 years ago in the ownership of the current owner then he can bring it back in and sell it without any VAT liability. A complication in that part of the world may actually mean that it has been in and out while cruising, in which case the time limit may be less of an issue. It would be sensible to have evidence of such visits if this is the case. If however the last sale took place in Gib then VAT would be payable.
As to evidence of the original VAT payment, in the absence of any papers with the boat such as the deregistration certificate it will probably be difficult to trace anything. You would be in a similar position to many people with older boats that have changed hands several times in not having hard evidence of VAT payment, which for most does not present any real problems.
Probably the first thing to do is to determine the detail history of the boat to ensure that you can at least buy it located in Spain without having to import it and pay VAT. then assess how important you think it is to have proof of original VAT payment.
Critical will be the date it left the EU and who owned it then. If it went out less than 3 years ago in the ownership of the current owner then he can bring it back in and sell it without any VAT liability. A complication in that part of the world may actually mean that it has been in and out while cruising, in which case the time limit may be less of an issue. It would be sensible to have evidence of such visits if this is the case. If however the last sale took place in Gib then VAT would be payable.
As to evidence of the original VAT payment, in the absence of any papers with the boat such as the deregistration certificate it will probably be difficult to trace anything. You would be in a similar position to many people with older boats that have changed hands several times in not having hard evidence of VAT payment, which for most does not present any real problems.
Probably the first thing to do is to determine the detail history of the boat to ensure that you can at least buy it located in Spain without having to import it and pay VAT. then assess how important you think it is to have proof of original VAT payment.
Flier2
Member
"Critical will be the date it left the EU and who owned it then. If it went out less than 3 years ago in the ownership of the current owner then he can bring it back in and sell it without any VAT liability. A complication in that part of the world may actually mean that it has been in and out while cruising, in which case the time limit may be less of an issue. It would be sensible to have evidence of such visits if this is the case. If however the last sale took place in Gib then VAT would be payable."
-
Thanks guys - The boat was taken off spanish registry by uk owner in spain in 2011 It was then sold to current owner 2 years ago in gib. - I have copy of a recent insurance survey june 2014 which was completed in Spain.
So if the boat has been on the spanish register proving vat has been paid- been outside spain for 2 years .
Proof that it was in spain 18 months ago i should be fine buying it in spain and sailing on my merry way -
What are your thoughts?
-
Thanks guys - The boat was taken off spanish registry by uk owner in spain in 2011 It was then sold to current owner 2 years ago in gib. - I have copy of a recent insurance survey june 2014 which was completed in Spain.
So if the boat has been on the spanish register proving vat has been paid- been outside spain for 2 years .
Proof that it was in spain 18 months ago i should be fine buying it in spain and sailing on my merry way -
What are your thoughts?
Sea Devil
Well-known member
Not sure that taking the boat to Gibraltar makes any difference to anything - provided you do not register it as a Gib boat (which entails a 12% tax on the value - price paid!! They are all at it!)
You can take the boat to anywhere in the world and purchase anywhere in the world (within certain time limits) and provided it is VAT paid and it is possible to prove that it is then the 'place' of the translation is irrelevant. If this were not the case then some circumnavigators would have problems - but in reality don't as the 'authorities have no way of knowing where in the world - EU the boat has actually been... And for the most part do not care.
The only way you should have problems with Spanish authorities is if you are a Spanish resident.
Assuming you are a Spanish resident then you will have to 'import' from the UK (SSR) the boat to Spain and pay the 12% matriculation tax - you might get out of this if you can prove that the boat is already Spanish matriculation tax paid by a previous owner. Unless you have some paperwork to prove this then that will be a big ask..
It could be worth speaking with Alex who's details you will find on the link below -
http://www.michaelbriant.com/spain_boat_rules.htm
Alex is a first rate lawyer for the Spanish boat trade and if there is a way of tracing the register in Spain of the boat he will know how to do it
fair winds
Michael
macd
Active member
I'm sorry, Paw-Paw, but you're mistaken:
Complications also arise because a VAT paid boat can lose this status. This will happen, for instance, if it’s sold outside the EU – even if purchaser and vendor are EU residents. VAT must then be paid if the boat is brought back into the EU. Equally, boats that are kept outside the EU for more than three years may be required to pay VAT again.
http://uk.boats.com/boat-buyers-guide/vat-boats-guide/
And, from the horse's mouth: https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ailing-your-pleasure-craft-to-and-from-the-uk
3.5 Can a vessel lose its VAT paid status?
VAT is due on the importation of any vessel from outside the EU. However, there are provisions for this VAT to be relieved when an EU VAT paid vessel returns to the EU, refer to sub-section 3.4. If an EU VAT paid vessel leaves the EU, and whilst outside the EU it is sold, the new owner will, unless eligible for one of the reliefs described in this Notice, be liable to pay VAT if the vessel is brought back into the EU.
Section 3.4 is this:
A boat previously VAT paid and exported from the EU may also qualify for relief on return if:
imported normally within 3 years of its export from the EU
imported by the person who exported it from the EU
it has undergone no more than running repairs outside the EU that did not increase its value
Which seems not to apply in this case.
You are right that circumnavigators could suffer from this, yet we seem to hear of no such examples. I'd guess that this is because they slip under the radar, or HMRC turn a blind eye to them (perhaps even in the interests of fairness, perhaps under 'goods & chattels' rules). And, yes, yachts of relaively low value are generally of little interest to the authorities (unless you do something to wind them up.)
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Flier2
Member
People i am a happy bunny- Sorry for giving you duff info- in the right spirit. I am going
To accept it was my understanding and not the vendors explanation. Lol!
Right the boat was purchased in spain and re registerd to ssr in 2011 - It has berthed
In spanish marina for 2.5 years (confirmed by marina just now)
Vendor then bought it in spain been in gib for 2.1 years.
I am going to buy it in spain all 100% legal .
Sorry for the crap info - still thread is now going to be v usefull in the future. Thanks
To accept it was my understanding and not the vendors explanation. Lol!
Right the boat was purchased in spain and re registerd to ssr in 2011 - It has berthed
In spanish marina for 2.5 years (confirmed by marina just now)
Vendor then bought it in spain been in gib for 2.1 years.
I am going to buy it in spain all 100% legal .
Sorry for the crap info - still thread is now going to be v usefull in the future. Thanks
Sea Devil
Well-known member
Really interesting and thank you for the correction.
I think however these rules apply to boats being 'resident' outside the EU, otherwise all the dozens of boats that are sole each year in Gibraltar with EU registration, would be in deep doodaa.... And they are not, because it is impossible for the authorities to know where in the EU a boat has been for the last years and indeed where in the world it has been... Of course the bill of sale should not state Gibraltar or indeed anywhere outside the EU.
I am sure from your quotes that legally and technically you are correct but the reality is provide the bill of sale says a EU country then it must be OK - n'est pas?
macd
Active member
Of course that's right and exactly the same circumstances and practices apply in the Channel Islands, Turkey and so on. But the technical realities are important. Buyers and sellers need to know them in order to...er...massage them. If the last bill of sale on Flier's boat was addressed to Gib, then he'd be in a very different situation.
macd
Active member
Flier2
Member
Thanks mac , michael and all - land ahoy!!!
Tranona
Well-known member
I am afraid you are wrong there. HMRC VAT Notice No 8 is quite clear on the subject. And the rules apply to all VAT goods, not just boats. Suggest you look on the RYA site at the VAT information sheet where HMRC spell out quite clearly that if a boat leaves the EU it is potentially liable to VAT on return. The relief is available if the same person who took it out brings it back in, and then normally only within 3 years. So this does not normally affect ocean sailors who come back tot he UK, particularly as the "normally" is flexible.
However, as I said in my first reply that if the boat changes hands outside the EU then it is definitely liable for VAT on return unless the person importing it is eligible for another relief such as returning residents. this particularly affects boats in Turkey for example which have been taken there by EU residents and then either kept there for several years or sold there. So this will apply if the boat in question changes hands in Gibraltar.
As I pointed out this situation can be avoided easily by moving the boat to Spain for the transaction, but if the last one did take place in Gib then the VAT liability will still be there.
These rules are EU wide, not just in UK, although the way they are enforced (or not0 may vary. However, if there is a possibility that the rules have been broken in relation to a particular boat (and the paperwork trail of transactions will show that), the liability potentially stays with the boat, so a subsequent owner could inherit the liability.
Therefore important the buyer sees the complete history of the boat to assess whether the rules have been broken. It may well be that the chances of being "caught" are low, but they are there and it only needs a bored official to notice it some time down the line and cause all sorts of hassle for the owner.
As an aside, brokers who deal with boats with this sort of history will tell you that it is boats with this sort of history that give most problems with VAT.
