Buying spanish reg boat uk resident help

[jimbaerselman]

Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools.

If you know the rules, you can give good advice. Whether the advice is followed or not is then down to the practitioner, who carries the risk. Your advice, which equates to "follow the practice, not necessarily the rules" has historically led a number of vessels into substantial fines.

VAT, TVA. The risk of VAT status being invalid is reduced if you have a full chain of Bills of Sale from a VAT receipt to the current day, AND evidence that the boat was within the EU at the time of transaction. This evidence may be a berthing receipt or a statement of location on the Bill of sale.

If a boat lacks either of those pieces of evidence, for a buyer, there's a risk he may have to pay up to 20% or so of the boat's value if he exits and then re-enters the EU. This risk is a bargaining counter for a wise buyer - who will negotiate a lower price for the vessel.

It's true that "proof of VAT status" is very rarely asked for. The reason is that in the majority of EU countries, for boats over certain sizes, initial registration requires proof of the boat's VAT status (paid, for private vessels, and unpaid for vessels used by VAT registered entities). All subsequent ownership changes are held on the boat's registration file. Sale by a VAT registered entity to a non-VAT registered entity must include VAT.

Both Croatia and Portugal have recognised the UK registry doesn't do this (and maybe other registries . . .). They also know that it's difficult to find the other party to a Bill of Sale, so forgery is difficult to detect. These countries now occasionally ask for proof of a UK boat's right to circulate within the EU - in the form of an HMRC authenticated shipping document describing the boat and labelled "T2L".

Matriculation Tax. There's no requirement for boats being imported into Spain (under tax residence rules) to be put on the Spanish register (matriculated?). Yes, they must be declared and listed, obey local equipment regulations, and be allocated an identifying number. And if you don't declare this "import" within 30 days of becoming tax resident or importing the boat, you will become liable to pay a 12% "pollution tax" based on a complex valuation. I've heard the initials "ISDMT" - or something similar - used to describe this tax. It is effectively a fine for not declaring import when you should.

Wise men would obey the import rules to save themselves money. Fools could pay (avoidable) matriculation tax.

Most of this subject is covered in jimbsail.info/going-foreign/docs-and-VAT and /time-abroad, or Google "jimb going foreign"

 

[Sea Devil]

If you know the rules, you can give good advice. Whether the advice is followed or not is then down to the practitioner, who carries the risk. Your advice, which equates to "follow the practice, not necessarily the rules" has historically led a number of vessels into substantial fines.

VAT, TVA. The risk of VAT status being invalid is reduced if you have a full chain of Bills of Sale from a VAT receipt to the current day, AND evidence that the boat was within the EU at the time of transaction. This evidence may be a berthing receipt or a statement of location on the Bill of sale.

If a boat lacks either of those pieces of evidence, for a buyer, there's a risk he may have to pay up to 20% or so of the boat's value if he exits and then re-enters the EU. This risk is a bargaining counter for a wise buyer - who will negotiate a lower price for the vessel.

It's true that "proof of VAT status" is very rarely asked for. The reason is that in the majority of EU countries, for boats over certain sizes, initial registration requires proof of the boat's VAT status (paid, for private vessels, and unpaid for vessels used by VAT registered entities). All subsequent ownership changes are held on the boat's registration file. Sale by a VAT registered entity to a non-VAT registered entity must include VAT.

Both Croatia and Portugal have recognised the UK registry doesn't do this (and maybe other registries . . .). They also know that it's difficult to find the other party to a Bill of Sale, so forgery is difficult to detect. These countries now occasionally ask for proof of a UK boat's right to circulate within the EU - in the form of an HMRC authenticated shipping document describing the boat and labelled "T2L".

Matriculation Tax. There's no requirement for boats being imported into Spain (under tax residence rules) to be put on the Spanish register (matriculated?). Yes, they must be declared and listed, obey local equipment regulations, and be allocated an identifying number. And if you don't declare this "import" within 30 days of becoming tax resident or importing the boat, you will become liable to pay a 12% "pollution tax" based on a complex valuation. I've heard the initials "ISDMT" - or something similar - used to describe this tax. It is effectively a fine for not declaring import when you should.

Wise men would obey the import rules to save themselves money. Fools could pay (avoidable) matriculation tax.

Most of this subject is covered in jimbsail.info/going-foreign/docs-and-VAT and /time-abroad, or Google "jimb going foreign"

Dear Jim,

Thank you for the interesting post and agreeing with most of what I have said.

The only difference between me and the various other 'sea lawyers' on this tread, is that I am a Spanish resident and have successfully imported a boat and a good car into Spain avoiding, legally, 'matriculation tax' and another car paying a very modest £200 on one valued £8,000. I have previously lived in France and also imported successfully both several boats and couple of cars.

You posted:
VAT, TVA. The risk of VAT status being invalid is reduced if you have a full chain of Bills of Sale from a VAT receipt to the current day, AND evidence that the boat was within the EU at the time of transaction. This evidence may be a berthing receipt or a statement of location on the Bill of sale. If a boat lacks either of those pieces of evidence, for a buyer, there's a risk he may have to pay up to 20% or so of the boat's value if he exits and then re-enters the EU. This risk is a bargaining counter for a wise buyer - who will negotiate a lower price for the vessel.

If you speak to both French and Spanish officials (Duane - Guardia Civil) they will tell you that any boat over 18 years of age, that has history of being in EU waters are not interesting to them - Having said that they assume the boat is less than 200,000€ in value. Of course it is better to have historical documents back to manufacture but not essential by any means if there is evidence that the boat was in EU waters.

What will raise their interest is if it was previously owned by a sailing school, charter company or a registered Ltd company then the company will almost certainly may have reclaimed the vat on it and may have sold it on without repaying the vaT!! I notice with interest that the 'sea lawyers' posting on this tread have failed to mention any of that!!!!

It is very important to have local knowledge and know how the various rules are applied in reality and not rely on googled research. Rules are always for the guidance of wise men..........

As to advice - this forum is mainly populated by grumpy old men who are bored! Any advice you get or give for free is dubious and probably tainted... If you pay for advice then you have reason to complain if it's wrong - if you think I should not offer advice as yours (not you Jim but generally) then I ask - who are you to condemn my opinion? - what is it that makes me wrong and you right? Just opinion.


fair winds from Dieppe - where I am getting bored!

Michael