Buying livaboard in Florida....

[rustybarge]

You want to get your B1/B2 visa in the UK. The rejection rate seems higher the closer you get to the USA. You then get your actual permission to stay when you go through immigration on arrival.

Federal documentation is handled by the Coasties FAQ here http://www.uscg.mil/nvdc/nvdcfaq.asp you need this if going 'foreign' further than the Bahamas although some countries seem to accept state documentation.

State documentation depends on the state you are resident in. Threshold may be length/weight /speed or some combination. Usually starts with state initials and must be displayed in large letters on bow. Florida coasties LOVE to stop out of state boats for a 'safety inspection'.

Ireland has a special immigration agreement with the USA, there's actually US immigration officials at Shannon airport, that's close to limerick; so you actually get cleared through US immigration in Ireland before arriving in the states.

I don't know what the refusal rates are though.

 

[rustybarge]

Been through this a few times and used to be a yacht broker in Florida so think I can offer some reasonably accurate answers.

In the USA there are two different ways to "register" a boat.

1. Documentation. This is the proper term applied to a vessel that is "registered" with the US Coast Guard. This is available only to US citizens. Even permanent residents are not allowed to the best of my knowledge. There is a way around this. One could start a US corporation and be the primary stockholder and register the boat under the US corporation.

2. Registration. This is done in the individual states and the rules can vary a lot state to state. Generally state registration is quite easy as it generates revenue for the state and at least in Florida I doubt they care if you are citizen of Mars if you pay the fees, which by the way are not much, maybe a hundred quid or so. Side note. If a vessel is registered OR documented in the US then almost all states in fact require that you register the boat in that state if you keep the boat there longer than 90 days. Foreign flagged boats are exempt from this requirement.

Taxes. No national VAT or anything like but most states do have a sales tax which seems like VAT to me, just not as much. Most states are +/- 6%. Whether or not one must pay this tax is not quite as clear, at least in regard to a non citizen. I have not seen that specific issue addressed in the Florida statutes. It is clear that a foreign flagged vessel will be exempt from sales tax in Florida, as long as the vessel and owner have a valid cruising permit. If the vessel is owned by a non citizen but registered in Florida I think it will be treated the same as a vessel owned by a citizen. So if purchased in Florida and registered Florida, you pay the tax. If purchased in Florida and registered in another state, you have to leave Florida within 90 days or you pay the tax. If you leave but return to Florida and stay within some time frame (6 months or a year if I recall) then you lose the exemption and you pay the tax.

What to do and what will keep you out of trouble???? Buy the boat, register in a state, pay the sales tax and you are good. You can open an account with a mail drop to use as the mailing address for the documents if you have no permanent residence in the US. As far as I know all states will recognize and credit the sales tax paid in another state. Worst case, if you pay the tax in a state that charges 5% and then soon thereafter move the boat long term to a state that charges 6% they might try to bill you for the difference.

Bottom line, I think the cruising permit and visa will be the big deal. If you do run into a question about the taxes or registration and find you did not totally comply with some state's red tape then 99.99% of the time the worst thing that would happen is they ask you to pay their registration fee or local tax.

CAUTION: A state registration will be accepted with no question in the US and the Bahamas and I think Canada. However, if you plan to cruise further afield you might encounter some resistance in the local officials who are used to the USCG documentation.

Here's a link to the state of Florida Department of Revenue if you want to read their guidelines. http://dor.myflorida.com/dor/forms/current/gt800005.pdf

Thanks very much for clarifying all the issues.
The United states of America, I don't think so ! What a nightmare, maybe the EU isn't so bad after all.
50 different tax rates in 50 different states, they can't be serious; but now that I think about it that's what happens in the EU as well, with the different VAT rates and different boat registration requirements in each country.:ambivalence:

The Uk is quite literally boating heaven; no requirements of any sort, beat that!

One last question remains: On an US registered and annual tax paid boat, owned by a non US citizen, do you need a cruising permit while cruising in the states?

and.....
IF you boat is stored on the hard do you have to keep the registration valid; and would that mean I don't have worry about a valid annual registration if I'm not in the states?

 

[rustybarge]

Here's a series of video's of a trip from the great lakes down the east coast on the ICW to Florida, then across Florida on a canal to the west coast:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wkrp5DuRPXs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7g9oqsmCis8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-r4ytDc3uI

...all on a Mainship 34' trawler of course.

 

[penfold]

Just to clarify what gerry said about a visa.

You need a B1/B2 visa. This will be stuck into your passport so try to co-ordinate the dates of the two for maximum benefit. Valid 10 years and essential if you are coming in or going out of the US by private boat.

Costs a few bob and involves trip(s) to the US Embassy. I got mine after three visits to their Embassy in Lisbon.

This isn't important; just retain your old passport as the visa remains valid even if the passport it's in is not. It's a bit of a faff carrying two, but not the end of the world and better than having to revisit the stasi at Grosvener Square.

 

[skipmac]

Thanks very much for clarifying all the issues.
The United states of America, I don't think so ! What a nightmare, maybe the EU isn't so bad after all.
50 different tax rates in 50 different states, they can't be serious; but now that I think about it that's what happens in the EU as well, with the different VAT rates and different boat registration requirements in each country.:ambivalence:

The Uk is quite literally boating heaven; no requirements of any sort, beat that!

One last question remains: On an US registered and annual tax paid boat, owned by a non US citizen, do you need a cruising permit while cruising in the states?

and.....
IF you boat is stored on the hard do you have to keep the registration valid; and would that mean I don't have worry about a valid annual registration if I'm not in the states?

Good point. Perhaps we should rename the country the Loosely and Reluctantly Associated States of America. While there are many consistencies there are some glaring discrepancies, some of which can actually get one put in jail, like different gun laws (what a can of worms and no I DO NOT want to go there). Be perfectly legal in one state, drive just across a state line to a neighboring state and face years in jail.

On the other hand, as you also note, the VAT varies a lot across the EU as do the state sales tax rules. Creates some interesting business issues in areas where bordering states have different regulations. One state has high gas taxes, the one next door low taxes. Guess what you see right at the border in the low tax states. Big, discount gas stations with crowds at the pumps. Same with tobacco taxes and even booze. No totally dry states any longer but still some dry counties or some that allow no hard liquor. But drive to the county line in any direction and you are certain to find a store to cater to your needs. Also, if you get lucky and find a boat you like in New England the state of Rhode Island has no sales tax on used boats.

Regarding the boat registration fees, they are due annually but yes, if your boat is on the hard no registration required. I have my boat on the hard for the last three years for a major overhaul in anticipation of retirement and back to cruising. Been to the Caribbean so this time I'm heading east. So look out, I'll be coming in about two years. And I wouldn't be too concerned about the registrations. Unless you own a megayacht it would be only USD$100-$300 in all the states I'm familiar with on the east coast. Also the sales tax is only due once so no worries there. A couple of states do have annual taxes on personal property like boats but those are easy to avoid. Florida is good for that.

As far as the cruising permit, sorry have no clue since I live here and not really a concern. Of course you will need a visa for yourself but the cruising permit is an interesting question. If no one on the forum has an answer I could ring the US customs office and ask.

 

[rustybarge]

Good point. Perhaps we should rename the country the Loosely and Reluctantly Associated States of America. While there are many consistencies there are some glaring discrepancies, some of which can actually get one put in jail, like different gun laws (what a can of worms and no I DO NOT want to go there). Be perfectly legal in one state, drive just across a state line to a neighboring state and face years in jail.

On the other hand, as you also note, the VAT varies a lot across the EU as do the state sales tax rules. Creates some interesting business issues in areas where bordering states have different regulations. One state has high gas taxes, the one next door low taxes. Guess what you see right at the border in the low tax states. Big, discount gas stations with crowds at the pumps. Same with tobacco taxes and even booze. No totally dry states any longer but still some dry counties or some that allow no hard liquor. But drive to the county line in any direction and you are certain to find a store to cater to your needs. Also, if you get lucky and find a boat you like in New England the state of Rhode Island has no sales tax on used boats.

Regarding the boat registration fees, they are due annually but yes, if your boat is on the hard no registration required. I have my boat on the hard for the last three years for a major overhaul in anticipation of retirement and back to cruising. Been to the Caribbean so this time I'm heading east. So look out, I'll be coming in about two years. And I wouldn't be too concerned about the registrations. Unless you own a megayacht it would be only USD$100-$300 in all the states I'm familiar with on the east coast. Also the sales tax is only due once so no worries there. A couple of states do have annual taxes on personal property like boats but those are easy to avoid. Florida is good for that.

As far as the cruising permit, sorry have no clue since I live here and not really a concern. Of course you will need a visa for yourself but the cruising permit is an interesting question. If no one on the forum has an answer I could ring the US customs office and ask.

Thanks again.
Phew, everything is getting clearer. What hope would you have in a country where they didn't speak English;I've been coming here to France for very long time, and I can hardly read a bank statement, they use comma's instead of decimal points; never quite sure i when I have 100.00,00 if it's a hundred quid or ten thousand or a hundred thousand!! And the council bills are indecipherable, there's rates, habitation tax, water rates and your tv licence all on different bills; try sorting that out in french, the terminology isn't in any dictionary.

Rant over.

So i'm looking forward to dealing with everything in American, what a relief that's going to be.

I was reading on a forum that the best way to find a good second hand boat is to employ a dealer to search for the perfect boat, and pay him a commission and a retainers fee; taking into account the huge distances in the states this might make sense.

has anyone ever heard of this?

 

[skipmac]

Thanks again.
Phew, everything is getting clearer. What hope would you have in a country where they didn't speak English;I've been coming here to France for very long time, and I can hardly read a bank statement, they use comma's instead of decimal points; never quite sure i when I have 100.00,00 if it's a hundred quid or ten thousand or a hundred thousand!! And the council bills are indecipherable, there's rates, habitation tax, water rates and your tv licence all on different bills; try sorting that out in french, the terminology isn't in any dictionary.

Rant over.

So i'm looking forward to dealing with everything in American, what a relief that's going to be.

I was reading on a forum that the best way to find a good second hand boat is to employ a dealer to search for the perfect boat, and pay him a commission and a retainers fee; taking into account the huge distances in the states this might make sense.

has anyone ever heard of this?

And you think we speak English over here? Do be aware that you used the correct term for our language. Over here we speak American which can be quite a bit different from whatever it is you speak over there. I'm still trying to figure out if "half eight" means 30 minutes before 8, 30 minutes after eight or maybe it means 4:00.

Regarding use of a dealer or agent to buy a boat, if you find the right one that would ideally be the job of a yacht broker. The system here is a bit odd and potentially there is a conflict of interest in how the business is managed. When a boat is sold by a broker there is an overall commission, usually 10% that comes out of the price. Normally this is deducted from what the seller receives and not charged as a separate item to the buyer, but of course the seller is aware and may up his asking price a bit to compensate. However, the seller can't pad his asking too much or he/she will price the boat out of the market so this action is usually self limiting.

The conflict comes in the commission process. A seller will list a boat for sale with a broker and when sold, that broker will receive a "listing commission". The broker that sells the boat will receive the "selling commission". Split usually 30/70 respectively. But what if the listing broker is also the selling broker? Whose interests does he represent? The boat owner or the boat buyer? At the end of the day the broker represents himself since with no sale there's no commission.

So what to do as a potential buyer when it is not practical to drop by to check another boat ever week or so? Ideally you would find a broker that works for you as the buyer. That broker will still get his commission out of the net selling price so should not impact your cost any more than dealing with any other broker. Tell the broker what you want, have him/her find several boats that match your criteria and schedule a trip. The problem is finding a competent and motivated broker. They certainly exist but there are also lots and lots of brokers that just want the easy sale and will not expend the effort you need. Also there are plenty that are either incompetent or just plain dishonest and I can say this with certainty because I used be a broker.

When I started looking for my current boat I looked at a number of listings on the internet and start narrowing the options. My criteria was pretty broad. 35-45', center cockpit with private aft cabin, cutter rig, moderate draft, modified fin keel with skeg hung rudder. Found a boat that matched and called the broker selling it. Boat was sold but the broker said he would find me another so I gave him the list. So a few days later he tries to sell me an aft cockpit, full keel, ketch.

I also hear many stories from buyers that drive hundreds of miles to see a boat only to arrive and find it to be nothing like the broker described. So finding a broker that will really do what you need could be tricky. Caveat Emptor very much applies.

I have been out of the business for 30 years so no longer have any personal friends in the business but if you have no leads or recommendations I'll be happy to check around for you.

 

[rustybarge]

And you think we speak English over here? Do be aware that you used the correct term for our language. Over here we speak American which can be quite a bit different from whatever it is you speak over there. I'm still trying to figure out if "half eight" means 30 minutes before 8, 30 minutes after eight or maybe it means 4:00.

Regarding use of a dealer or agent to buy a boat, if you find the right one that would ideally be the job of a yacht broker. The system here is a bit odd and potentially there is a conflict of interest in how the business is managed. When a boat is sold by a broker there is an overall commission, usually 10% that comes out of the price. Normally this is deducted from what the seller receives and not charged as a separate item to the buyer, but of course the seller is aware and may up his asking price a bit to compensate. However, the seller can't pad his asking too much or he/she will price the boat out of the market so this action is usually self limiting.

The conflict comes in the commission process. A seller will list a boat for sale with a broker and when sold, that broker will receive a "listing commission". The broker that sells the boat will receive the "selling commission". Split usually 30/70 respectively. But what if the listing broker is also the selling broker? Whose interests does he represent? The boat owner or the boat buyer? At the end of the day the broker represents himself since with no sale there's no commission.

So what to do as a potential buyer when it is not practical to drop by to check another boat ever week or so? Ideally you would find a broker that works for you as the buyer. That broker will still get his commission out of the net selling price so should not impact your cost any more than dealing with any other broker. Tell the broker what you want, have him/her find several boats that match your criteria and schedule a trip. The problem is finding a competent and motivated broker. They certainly exist but there are also lots and lots of brokers that just want the easy sale and will not expend the effort you need. Also there are plenty that are either incompetent or just plain dishonest and I can say this with certainty because I used be a broker.

When I started looking for my current boat I looked at a number of listings on the internet and start narrowing the options. My criteria was pretty broad. 35-45', center cockpit with private aft cabin, cutter rig, moderate draft, modified fin keel with skeg hung rudder. Found a boat that matched and called the broker selling it. Boat was sold but the broker said he would find me another so I gave him the list. So a few days later he tries to sell me an aft cockpit, full keel, ketch.

I also hear many stories from buyers that drive hundreds of miles to see a boat only to arrive and find it to be nothing like the broker described. So finding a broker that will really do what you need could be tricky. Caveat Emptor very much applies.

I have been out of the business for 30 years so no longer have any personal friends in the business but if you have no leads or recommendations I'll be happy to check around for you.

The real truth is that at the tiny budget I'll be spending, in or around $50k, no self respecting broker is going to be remotely interested in the commission. Once I have identified a suitable boat type, my best strategy might be to joint the owner club; that way I could get to know if there's any good second hand boats for sale, and enthusiasts look after their boats better.

Regarding the American language, being Irish myself I've experienced blank looks from English people who don't understand the way we construct our sentences; I'm sure that I'll learn American fairly quickly with a few word substitutions. I think Americans are more Celtic in outlook than Anglo Saxon, and have a much more relaxed attitude to life than English people. Of course their 'can do' attitude definitely isn't Irish....

As they say, when you see the right boat you'll know. It's just a matter of pounding the pavements and go 'look see' what's out there. I'm hoping that the cost saving of boating in the states will pay for the flights out, and with the guaranteed weather it looks like a very attractive proposition.

Someone told me Delta airlines are offering some cheap flights to Miami, I will investigate further.

Thanks again Skipmac for all the help and advise, much appreciated.

 

[TQA]

I based myself in Florida when I was hunting my forever [sail]boat. You might get good service from a buyers broker if there were a few more zeros in your budget.

I used yachtworld advanced search to find my boats but at your budget I would also use boattrader to find private sellers.

If you find a boat you like listed by a broker do not assume he has seen the boat. A few minutes on the phone asking pointed questions will eliminate the wrecks needing more than some TLC. I never found a broker who actively lied but lots of passive lies and being economical with the truth. Ask if if the photographs are current and of the actual boat on sale. Ask if there are receipts for work done and manuals for the equipment. Both are a good sign IMHO and if the broker knows the answer he probably has been on the boat.

6+ trawlers in Falmouth harbor Antigua today.

 

[rustybarge]

I based myself in Florida when I was hunting my forever [sail]boat. You might get good service from a buyers broker if there were a few more zeros in your budget.

I used yachtworld advanced search to find my boats but at your budget I would also use boattrader to find private sellers.

If you find a boat you like listed by a broker do not assume he has seen the boat. A few minutes on the phone asking pointed questions will eliminate the wrecks needing more than some TLC. I never found a broker who actively lied but lots of passive lies and being economical with the truth. Ask if if the photographs are current and of the actual boat on sale. Ask if there are receipts for work done and manuals for the equipment. Both are a good sign IMHO and if the broker knows the answer he probably has been on the boat.

6+ trawlers in Falmouth harbor Antigua today.

Here's a typical add, written in dealer speak, anyone care to translate:

$39,500
1981 34 foot Mainship Mark 1
Price:
$39,500
Financing:
Buying a Car? Check Your Credit Score for $0 Here.
Summary:
Used 1981 Mainship
Location:
Hampstead, NC
Description:

This 1981 Mainship 34 Mark I Trawler is in superb condition! This is an absolutely gorgeous live aboard! She is pushed by an extremely efficient Perkins inboard diesel engine. She fired up with ZERO hesitation! With a very shallow draft and protective running gear she can handle some of the most shallow waters. The hull is made from a solid molded Fiberglass! This Trawler has absolutely no cracks in it! The Bow can accommodate plenty of people to tan or relax on and the stern is capable of the same. The Mark I design has the extended flybridge deck space for that extra room. The interior is roomy and design for living aboard. A very comfortable couch and living area setting which also pulls out to sleep 2. There is easy access to the kitchen and plenty of room to cook. The bathroom is spacious and designed for Owners and guests that are tall. The bedroom has a large comfortable bed and storage all around. The Owner has added many upgrades for a more reliable and enjoyable boating experience. Added items:*Electron San waste treatment Vacuum! Blower which eliminates Diesel fumes!*Diesel impurities extractor! Well Maintained top to bottom! Great Intracoastal Waterway Cruiser! This listing has now been on the market a couple months. Please submit any and all offers today! We encourage all buyers to schedule a survey for an independent analysis. Any offer to purchase is ALWAYS subject to satisfactory survey results. Take a look at ALL ***161 PHOTOS*** of this vessel on our official web siteat POPYACHTS DOT COM.Contact us for a free BoatHistoryReport.com report on this vessel. We pay upfront for a report on every vessel possible, and we provide this peace of mind to our buyers at no charge and with no commitment. All you have to do is ask! At POP Yachts, we will always provide you with a TRUE REPRESENTATION of every vessel we market. We are a full-service brokerage company, ready to assist you in purchasing any boat anywhere! Please allow us to be your
For sale by:
Dealer


Read more: http://boats.oodle.com/detail/1981-34-foot-mainship-mark-1/3594126134-hampstead-nc/#ixzz2zBOUxAaT

 

[rustybarge]

Here's a very good walk round video of the original Mainship 34' mk1 with the extended flybridge; the Mk11 and Mk 111 had a shortened flybridge.
Seems to have lots and lots of space for a 34' boat.

 

[skipmac]

The real truth is that at the tiny budget I'll be spending, in or around $50k, no self respecting broker is going to be remotely interested in the commission. Once I have identified a suitable boat type, my best strategy might be to joint the owner club; that way I could get to know if there's any good second hand boats for sale, and enthusiasts look after their boats better.

Regarding the American language, being Irish myself I've experienced blank looks from English people who don't understand the way we construct our sentences; I'm sure that I'll learn American fairly quickly with a few word substitutions. I think Americans are more Celtic in outlook than Anglo Saxon, and have a much more relaxed attitude to life than English people. Of course their 'can do' attitude definitely isn't Irish....

As they say, when you see the right boat you'll know. It's just a matter of pounding the pavements and go 'look see' what's out there. I'm hoping that the cost saving of boating in the states will pay for the flights out, and with the guaranteed weather it looks like a very attractive proposition.

Someone told me Delta airlines are offering some cheap flights to Miami, I will investigate further.

Thanks again Skipmac for all the help and advise, much appreciated.

Commission on a $50K boat is $5,000.00. Surely all the brokers in Florida aren't so rich that they would turn that down? I have a friend that's an ace mechanic, machinist, finish carpenter and has completely rebuilt one boat and is helping me with mine. I'll bet for half that he would search out and evaluate a half dozen boats for sale.

Love Ireland. Was export sales for a company and traveled all over Europe for years but never got tired of visiting other countries. I always showed up at passport control like a kid at Christmas and the agents always looked at me like I was Carlos the Jackal trying to sneak into the country. Only place I ever got a friendly greeting and welcome was Ireland.

 

[rustybarge]

What do you think of this boat, soft decks repaired etc; seems to have lots of work done on it.....

http://www.yachtworld.com/privatela...rency=USD&access=Public&listing_id=59909&url=

2003 Yanmar 4LHA-DTP 200HP FWC diesel engine installed in 2010 at 217 hrs.
Hour meter now showing 456 hrs.
New engine exhaust system installed 2010
Two new fuel tanks installed 2010
New fresh water tank (2013)
New water heater (2011)
New bow sprit and anchor (2012)
Re-built side and fore deck (2012)
Stern anchor & rode
Stainless swim ladder
New anti-fouling paint (2012)
New zincs (2013)
Lewmar bow thruster

 

[Chatelaine60]

Hi. We bought a 1977 Mainship 34' nearly 6 years ago in Stuart on east coast of Florida. We have had a wonderful time this last 5 winters, going south to the Keys and west through the canal and lake system to the coast and down through the everglades to the Keys. We have the Perkins engine 160 hp that does about 1 gallon a hour at 6.5-7 knots but dont expect anything much more than 8.5 k from the older ones especially when loaded up for cruising. Ours stays at Indiantown marina during the summer months. Email me direct if you want any further information. Sue.

 

[Rum_Pirate]

According to some on this forum, Florida has to be much safer than the west Indies, where Yotties seem to get murdered nearly every week.

It is unfortunate that you are using a large and broad brush dipped in tar to daub a large area comprising of many different countries.

 

[skipmac]

No a real expert in the brand but assuming all this is true and correct and there are no hidden problems not mentioned (hard to think of any real deal breakers on a boat that aren't covered in this list) then it sounds like a boat that would do the job with a fairly low risk of major additional expenses.

Buying a power boat, even with low hour engines I would consider getting an engine survey before closing.

What do you think of this boat, soft decks repaired etc; seems to have lots of work done on it.....

http://www.yachtworld.com/privatela...et¤cy=USD&access=Public&listing_id=59909&url=

2003 Yanmar 4LHA-DTP 200HP FWC diesel engine installed in 2010 at 217 hrs.
Hour meter now showing 456 hrs.
New engine exhaust system installed 2010
Two new fuel tanks installed 2010
New fresh water tank (2013)
New water heater (2011)
New bow sprit and anchor (2012)
Re-built side and fore deck (2012)
Stern anchor & rode
Stainless swim ladder
New anti-fouling paint (2012)
New zincs (2013)
Lewmar bow thruster

 

[rustybarge]

Hi. We bought a 1977 Mainship 34' nearly 6 years ago in Stuart on east coast of Florida. We have had a wonderful time this last 5 winters, going south to the Keys and west through the canal and lake system to the coast and down through the everglades to the Keys. We have the Perkins engine 160 hp that does about 1 gallon a hour at 6.5-7 knots but dont expect anything much more than 8.5 k from the older ones especially when loaded up for cruising. Ours stays at Indiantown marina during the summer months. Email me direct if you want any further information. Sue.

Thanks, will do.

 

[rustybarge]

Quote Originally Posted by rustybarge View Post
According to some on this forum, Florida has to be much safer than the west Indies, where Yotties seem to get murdered nearly every week.

It is unfortunate that you are using a large and broad brush dipped in tar to daub a large area comprising of many different countries.

...sorry my fault, it was tongue in cheek!

 

[rustybarge]

No a real expert in the brand but assuming all this is true and correct and there are no hidden problems not mentioned (hard to think of any real deal breakers on a boat that aren't covered in this list) then it sounds like a boat that would do the job with a fairly low risk of major additional expenses.

Buying a power boat, even with low hour engines I would consider getting an engine survey before closing.

it is very hard to get one's head around the idea of buying a very old plastic boat, even if the owners club classify them as 'vintage'.

...but the a Lotus Elan is plastic, and it's definitely a classic.

 

[Chatelaine60]

You take as many precautions as you can. We are up the St Lucie canal through a 13' lock and 10 miles along and we have 4 big stakes in the ground the boat is strapped down to. So far so good. It you get a direct bit maybe bad but we know Canadians that have been there for at least 15 years. Just the luck of the draw. Cap Hatteras has always been the cut off point north for hurricane season from June to November, yet look where the last. It one hit, New York!!!