Buying livaboard in Florida....

[TQA]

First of all as others say you need the B1/B2 visa. N.B. it does NOT guarantee entry. That is up to the immigration officer. He will USUALLY give you 180 days although I know of people who got 365 days by asking. 365 is the minimum to apply for a US [ well Texas anyway ] driving licence. People who pop out to Mexico for a day and come back expecting to get the clock restarted can be refused and the B1/B2 cancelled.

Where do you intend to register the boat? You may have to leave US waters for 15? days every year? Make sure you understand the cruising permit rules.

I found the ICW interesting when I did it. Took the Potomac all the way to Washington DC. 38 ft sailboat with 4ft 6 in draft. Make sure the boat is FULLY SCREENED AGAINST MOSQUITOS.

I thought Indiantown Boatyard was a fairly safe place to store the boat.

You need a generator and A/C.

 

[rustybarge]

First of all as others say you need the B1/B2 visa. N.B. it does NOT guarantee entry. That is up to the immigration officer. He will USUALLY give you 180 days although I know of people who got 365 days by asking. 365 is the minimum to apply for a US [ well Texas anyway ] driving licence. People who pop out to Mexico for a day and come back expecting to get the clock restarted can be refused and the B1/B2 cancelled.

Where do you intend to register the boat? You may have to leave US waters for 15? days every year? Make sure you understand the cruising permit rules.

I found the ICW interesting when I did it. Took the Potomac all the way to Washington DC. 38 ft sailboat with 4ft 6 in draft. Make sure the boat is FULLY SCREENED AGAINST MOSQUITOS.

I thought Indiantown Boatyard was a fairly safe place to store the boat.

You need a generator and A/C.

In my enthusiasm I hadn't considered these very important details!

The states is a very big place, so I would be happy pottering around the US; that alone could take several lifetimes.
I just presumed it was like the UK where you don't need to register a private boat?
I wonder can a non resident own a US flagged vessel ?

I can now see the scenario where, if you got a immigration officer on a bad hair day, you could be permanently separated from your boat if he refused you entry to the US.

Why is nothing simple?

Does anyone have any links that might answer some of these questions?

 

[jonic]

When you sailed up the ICW, how much did you do offshore, and how much on the ICW?
In other words was the ICW interesting, or did you get bored with it?

We thought we would do half and half but ended up staying on the ICW for 95% of the time, and found it really interesting.

We also went up the Potomac, took the kids to the Whitehouse and then wandered in to the Smithsonian and found all three Apollo 11 Astronauts signing books.



A must have is "Skipper Bob's guide to anchorages of the ICW"

 

[rustybarge]

Got this from another forum....it's getting complicated.


Quote......'As for taxes, if you keep your houseboat in a marina, then the marina is assessed property taxes, most likely, and the marina passes that cost onto the berth renters as part of their monthly fee. If you do not keep your houseboat at a marina, and it is a bona fide boat, then it has to be registered in the state as a bona fide boat. Check with your state--you may have to pay property taxes on your registered boat. Finally, if you continue to move your boat from place to place and have no registered address, then maybe you can escape property taxes--maybe. You may not be able to vote either in state or national elections. Something to consider

That explains it, a marina rental. I thought it was a spec build.

PP taxes can be tricky. Each state will provide a time period, 30/60/90days for people residing in a state to register, cruisers passing through satying there seem to be overlooked and if they are paying PP taxes in another state/county/parish/commenwealth...they are usually exempted.

Some states however, and counties, want the PP taxes for any property in that jurisdiction after that initial period. If you have property in your care, custody and control in my county for example, they want the tax even if you do not own it! Even if you are from another state and are not paying the PP tax in your home state.

I mention this because there are states that don't have personal property tax and I'm sure they would be a popular place to register a boat and cruise, but then you bump into a county in some states like mines.

You certainly pay the tax through rents, but that is probably not a personal property tax since the marina owner does not own the boat.

Probably the best thing to do is to keep it under wraps, especially since mosts states and municipalities are looking for every dime they can get.

I'm sure most local taxing authorities assume that if a boat has a state registration that the owner is paying taxes on it in that state and they don't bother....

So, Shhhhh!......'Quote

 

[rustybarge]

And I thought the US was 'the land of the free'.

It appears that if you spend more than 90 days in any state, you have register your boat in that state, but you can keep your old origional registration as well.....

I will be vacationing in Florida this summer. Do I need to register my vessel there?

Florida recognizes valid registration certificates and numbers issued to visiting boaters for a period of 90 days. An owner who intends to use his vessel in Florida longer than 90 days must register it with a county tax collector. However, he may retain the out-of-state registration number if he plans to return to his home state within a reasonable period of time.

http://www.flhsmv.gov/dmv/faqboat.html#5

So non residents can register their boats in Florida, but can an EU citizen that's not resident in the states register a boat?
And what about this personal property tax that's applied to boats?

 

[rustybarge]

First of all as others say you need the B1/B2 visa. N.B. it does NOT guarantee entry. That is up to the immigration officer. He will USUALLY give you 180 days although I know of people who got 365 days by asking. 365 is the minimum to apply for a US [ well Texas anyway ] driving licence. People who pop out to Mexico for a day and come back expecting to get the clock restarted can be refused and the B1/B2 cancelled.

Where do you intend to register the boat? You may have to leave US waters for 15? days every year? Make sure you understand the cruising permit rules.

I found the ICW interesting when I did it. Took the Potomac all the way to Washington DC. 38 ft sailboat with 4ft 6 in draft. Make sure the boat is FULLY SCREENED AGAINST MOSQUITOS.

I thought Indiantown Boatyard was a fairly safe place to store the boat.

You need a generator and A/C.

Do you have a link for that info, can't seem to locate it.
Thanks.

 

[rustybarge]

More....

Resident aliens may apply for successive cruising licenses if their foreign-flag vessel was made in the U.S. or if duty has been paid on its importation provided that the vessel is documented under the laws of one of the countries listed in 19 CFR 4.94(b). Under CBP policy, non-U.S. residents are not eligible for successive cruising licenses. A new license will not be issued unless the following two conditions have been met: (1) at least 15 days have elapsed since the previous license either expired or was surrendered, and (2) the vessel arrives in the U.S. from a foreign port or place. (Customs Directive 3130-006A) CBP will want to see foreign clearance paperwork as evidence that you are arriving from a foreign location.

Non-residents are cautioned to plan carefully so that the mandatory 15-day period does not fall in the middle of a planned stay in U.S. waters. It may make sense to surrender your cruising license to a CBP Officer when you leave U.S. waters and then obtain a new one when you re-enter the U.S. Traveling outside of U.S. waters while your cruising license is still in effect does NOT fulfill the 15-day requirement

 

[rustybarge]

Ok, so there's a once off 'boat use' tax in Florida of 6% of the value of the boat on change of ownership; that's the personal property tax as far as I can see.

As long as you meet the following three criteria you will NOT owe the 6% use tax at the time of your arrival:
1. You have owned your vessel for 6 months or longer.
2. The boat is not owned by a Florida resident or the boat does not belong to a corporation for the use of a corporate officer or director who is a Florida resident or who owns, controls, or manages a dwelling in Florida.
3. You have shown no intent to use your vessel in Florida at or before the time of purchase.
4. Your vessel has been used 6 months or longer within the taxing jurisdiction of another state, U.S. territory, or the District of Columbia. Time spent in foreign waters does not count as part of the 6-month period.
Even if the boat is not initially taxable in Florida, however, the vessel will again become taxable at a rate of 6% of fair market value if the boat remains in Florida for 90 consecutive days or 183 days within a calendar year.

The annual registration tax is only peanuts, but it's the hassle of getting it done.

Florida Boat Registration Fees
Registration fees vary by the length of the vessel, as follows:

Class A-1 (vessels less than 12' and all motorized canoes): $12.25
Class A-2 (12 feet to less than 16 feet): $23
Class 1 (16 feet to less than 26): $35.50
Class 2 (26 feet to less than 40 feet): $85
Class 3 (40 feet to less than 65 feet): $134.50
Class 4 (65 feet to less than 110 feet): $159.50
Class 5 (110 feet or longer): $196.50
Please note that some counties may tack on additional fees

So there's only one unanswered question: Can a foreign non resident own a US flagged vessel, and register it with a EU home address?

 

[Salty John]

No, a documented boat can only be owned, and skippered, by a US citizen. But to get a boat de-documented is simple.

Establish yourself at a marina in Florida, use the marina as you're address. State register the boat, you'll need to pay the sales tax. That's the boat sorted. Your own personal status is different, you'll need the appropriate visa to get in and out of the USA to use your boat.

 

[rustybarge]

No, a documented boat can only be owned, and skippered, by a US citizen. But to get a boat de-documented is simple.

Establish yourself at a marina in Florida, use the marina as you're address. State register the boat, you'll need to pay the sales tax. That's the boat sorted. Your own personal status is different, you'll need the appropriate visa to get in and out of the USA to use your boat.

Under the letter of the law:

The Customs Regulations provide under section 4.3, footnote 9 (19 CFR 4.3 n. 9) that, "Every undocumented vessel of 5 net tons or over owned by an alien, whether or not such alien is a resident of the United States is a foreign vessel".

and so must apply for a cruising perrmit, but......... 19 CFR 4.94(b). Under CBP policy, non-U.S. residents are not eligible for successive cruising licenses.
.
If a foreigner buys a US registered boat, then the boat is deemed a foreign vessel, and must apply for a cruising permit, and would he therefore have to take that US registered boat out of US waters for 15 days every year?
Does a documented boat mean one on a registry, ie. a state registry; or does it just mean it's commercially coded boat like in the UK?

The penalty for non compliance:
....foreigners need either an annual cruising license or a permit to move...this applies when the vessel wants to transit between two different Customs zones, failure to have same on board is subject to $10.000.00 fine//non appealable.

 

[TQA]

Buy a boat in Florida. Leave Florida within 90? days, this exempts you from paying sales tax. Register in UK on SSR and change name if you like.Apply for cruising permit.

Every year take a trip the Bahamas and stay for 15 days or more. Reapply for cruising permit on return.

Do not expect customs officials to be very clued up or easy to access!

If you want an adventure in the USA look at 'running the loop' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Loop.

 

[rustybarge]

Buy a boat in Florida. Leave Florida within 90? days, this exempts you from paying sales tax. Register in UK on SSR and change name if you like.Apply for cruising permit.

Every year take a trip the Bahamas and stay for 15 days or more. Reapply for cruising permit on return.

Do not expect customs officials to be very clued up or easy to access!

If you want an adventure in the USA look at 'running the loop' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Loop.

I'd love to do the loop, and the Florida Keys area as well.
I've got a feeling the 'Tax' situations is one of those grey area's that even tax experts are unable to answer.

Working on a common sense basis, if you buy a US manufactured boat, pay the 6% Florida boat use tax and the state annual registration fee, how could you go wrong? You've paid all your dues.

Maybe it might be necessary to get a cruising permit because you are not a US citizen, but I can't imagine a scenario where you would be obliged to leave US waters for 15 days with a fully paid up US origin boat.

There must be thousands of expats who have houses and own boats in Florida; anyone ever heard of any problems?

 

[Salty John]

I've purchased four boats in the USA as a resident and as a visitor, cruised the length of the east coast between Chesapeake Bay and the Florida Keys seven times, cruised Chesapeake Bay for five years, did the Gulf ICW from Texas to New Orleans. I've never encountered the Customs and Borders people, always paid the 6% sales tax on the purchase price, stuck my registration letters on the bow and the registration fee decal on the mast. And I've met many other non-citizens doing exactly the same.

But, there may have been some change in the law that I'm unaware of since buying my last boat 8 or 9 years ago. I don't know if anyone has ever challenged Customs and Borders jurisdiction - seems to me their interpretation of the rules is for Custom's purposes.

 

[rustybarge]

No, a documented boat can only be owned, and skippered, by a US citizen. But to get a boat de-documented is simple.

Establish yourself at a marina in Florida, use the marina as you're address. State register the boat, you'll need to pay the sales tax. That's the boat sorted. Your own personal status is different, you'll need the appropriate visa to get in and out of the USA to use your boat.

I've purchased four boats in the USA as a resident and as a visitor, cruised the length of the east coast between Chesapeake Bay and the Florida Keys seven times, cruised Chesapeake Bay for five years, did the Gulf ICW from Texas to New Orleans. I've never encountered the Customs and Borders people, always paid the 6% sales tax on the purchase price, stuck my registration letters on the bow and the registration fee decal on the mast. And I've met many other non-citizens doing exactly the same.

But, there may have been some change in the law that I'm unaware of since buying my last boat 8 or 9 years ago. I don't know if anyone has ever challenged Customs and Borders jurisdiction - seems to me their interpretation of the rules is for Custom's purposes.

Thanks John
for your advise, it makes perfect sense.
As you say with an American boat fully registered and fees paid, what customs official is going to be remotely interested in you?

Reading through the web there seems to be hundreds of pages of arguments about the semantics of the 'alien non US citizen' owned boats and what the legislation means.

Bet the customs haven't got clue either, it's a very complex subject best left to tax lawyers.........and I'm definitely not going there, I'm only going to buy a cheap old trawler boat for less than $50k.

What's the worst that can happen?

 

[SimonJ]

Hi All,

I'm fed up with the winters in the Med. My daughter spent a month out in Florida this winter starting in the Keys, and then driving up the east coast all the way to NY.

Beautiful sunny weather and very cheap, what's not to like; and The Keys came in for some very positive remarks.

So Florida is the chosen destination this winter, but which coast, which marina's, which area's to cruise?


And now the boat to purchase?

Stumbled upon the Mainship 34' trawler.

Built in the 80's in large numbers [c.900]
Single Perkins engine 160hp to 200hp
8kts cruise on 3gals/hr, max about 14kts
Seaworthy design, many go offshore to the Bahamas.
Solid grp hull, but cored deck that can get soft.
$20k to $50k.

Seems easy to maintain, repair and run.
http://www.boattrader.com/listing/1983-Mainship-34-Mark-III-102091508
http://www.boattrader.com/listing/1979-Mainship-34-Motor-Cruiser-101812293

Sounds too good to be true?

One thing to remember especially in Florida is to call yourself a "long term cruiser" not a "live aboard". The latter are often considered as people who avoid paying taxes, have ugly or unmaintained boats which do not or cannot move are consequently not highly regarded! In many areas there are requirements to move on frequently (unless in a marina).

 

[TQA]

Registering a boat. This an odd one. It is not difficult for a non US citizen to buy and register a vehicle. I know this as I bought an RV and a motorcycle for my tour of the USA in 2007/8 and registered them in Texas. This is perfectly legal.

I know that you can not get Coastguard registration of a boat if you are a non US citizen unless you have some kind of US residence permit. I am not absolutely sure but I think this applies to State registration too.

But I found that officials often had only the most rudimentary knowledge of rules and regulations. Take the money and stamp those receipts. So you might get away with it.

However if it were me I would stay totally legal. SSR and 15 days in the Bahamas is not too onerous.

 

[rustybarge]

One thing to remember especially in Florida is to call yourself a "long term cruiser" not a "live aboard". The latter are often considered as people who avoid paying taxes, have ugly or unmaintained boats which do not or cannot move are consequently not highly regarded! In many areas there are requirements to move on frequently (unless in a marina).

....cough, cough....practice saying: 'as a long term cruiser'..............

 

[rustybarge]

Registering a boat. This an odd one. It is not difficult for a non US citizen to buy and register a vehicle. I know this as I bought an RV and a motorcycle for my tour of the USA in 2007/8 and registered them in Texas. This is perfectly legal.

I know that you can not get Coastguard registration of a boat if you are a non US citizen unless you have some kind of US residence permit. I am not absolutely sure but I think this applies to State registration too.

But I found that officials often had only the most rudimentary knowledge of rules and regulations. Take the money and stamp those receipts. So you might get away with it.

However if it were me I would stay totally legal. SSR and 15 days in the Bahamas is not too onerous.

On the cruiser forum someone was saying that's it's virtually impossible to get a new US visa renewal at the American embassy in the Bahamas, in fact they have a 100% refusal rate! You have to fly to Peuto Rico to get the visa renewed.

Problems problems problems........

I'm guessing that the difference between a documented boat, and a undocumented boat is the registration with the coast guard.
Does anybody know?

 

[TQA]

On the cruiser forum someone was saying that's it's virtually impossible to get a new US visa renewal at the American embassy in the Bahamas, in fact they have a 100% refusal rate! You have to fly to Peuto Rico to get the visa renewed.

Problems problems problems........

I'm guessing that the difference between a documented boat, and a undocumented boat is the registration with the coast guard.
Does anybody know?

You want to get your B1/B2 visa in the UK. The rejection rate seems higher the closer you get to the USA. You then get your actual permission to stay when you go through immigration on arrival.

Federal documentation is handled by the Coasties FAQ here http://www.uscg.mil/nvdc/nvdcfaq.asp you need this if going 'foreign' further than the Bahamas although some countries seem to accept state documentation.

State documentation depends on the state you are resident in. Threshold may be length/weight /speed or some combination. Usually starts with state initials and must be displayed in large letters on bow. Florida coasties LOVE to stop out of state boats for a 'safety inspection'.

 

[skipmac]

On the cruiser forum someone was saying that's it's virtually impossible to get a new US visa renewal at the American embassy in the Bahamas, in fact they have a 100% refusal rate! You have to fly to Peuto Rico to get the visa renewed.

Problems problems problems........

I'm guessing that the difference between a documented boat, and a undocumented boat is the registration with the coast guard.
Does anybody know?

Been through this a few times and used to be a yacht broker in Florida so think I can offer some reasonably accurate answers.

In the USA there are two different ways to "register" a boat.

1. Documentation. This is the proper term applied to a vessel that is "registered" with the US Coast Guard. This is available only to US citizens. Even permanent residents are not allowed to the best of my knowledge. There is a way around this. One could start a US corporation and be the primary stockholder and register the boat under the US corporation.

2. Registration. This is done in the individual states and the rules can vary a lot state to state. Generally state registration is quite easy as it generates revenue for the state and at least in Florida I doubt they care if you are citizen of Mars if you pay the fees, which by the way are not much, maybe a hundred quid or so. Side note. If a vessel is registered OR documented in the US then almost all states in fact require that you register the boat in that state if you keep the boat there longer than 90 days. Foreign flagged boats are exempt from this requirement.

Taxes. No national VAT or anything like but most states do have a sales tax which seems like VAT to me, just not as much. Most states are +/- 6%. Whether or not one must pay this tax is not quite as clear, at least in regard to a non citizen. I have not seen that specific issue addressed in the Florida statutes. It is clear that a foreign flagged vessel will be exempt from sales tax in Florida, as long as the vessel and owner have a valid cruising permit. If the vessel is owned by a non citizen but registered in Florida I think it will be treated the same as a vessel owned by a citizen. So if purchased in Florida and registered Florida, you pay the tax. If purchased in Florida and registered in another state, you have to leave Florida within 90 days or you pay the tax. If you leave but return to Florida and stay within some time frame (6 months or a year if I recall) then you lose the exemption and you pay the tax.

What to do and what will keep you out of trouble???? Buy the boat, register in a state, pay the sales tax and you are good. You can open an account with a mail drop to use as the mailing address for the documents if you have no permanent residence in the US. As far as I know all states will recognize and credit the sales tax paid in another state. Worst case, if you pay the tax in a state that charges 5% and then soon thereafter move the boat long term to a state that charges 6% they might try to bill you for the difference.

Bottom line, I think the cruising permit and visa will be the big deal. If you do run into a question about the taxes or registration and find you did not totally comply with some state's red tape then 99.99% of the time the worst thing that would happen is they ask you to pay their registration fee or local tax.

CAUTION: A state registration will be accepted with no question in the US and the Bahamas and I think Canada. However, if you plan to cruise further afield you might encounter some resistance in the local officials who are used to the USCG documentation.

Here's a link to the state of Florida Department of Revenue if you want to read their guidelines. http://dor.myflorida.com/dor/forms/current/gt800005.pdf